Unbelievable velocity mass variation!

The OP was multiposted to multiple forums. http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=38579
So what is the problem? I look for different opinions, as much as possible, and the very right answer I found there not here so that approach was right.
A more interesting question is since you are the unique administrator and moderator of physforum what are you doing here? It doesn't look good to me being the administrator/moderator of a forum and usually post in other one.
 
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So what is the problem? I look for different opinions, as much as possible, and the very right answer I found there not here so that approach was right.
A more interesting question is since you are the unique administrator and moderator of physforum what are you doing here? It doesn't look good to me being the administrator/moderator of a forum and usually post in other one.
You should read the forum rules and follow them. :)
 
You should read the forum rules and follow them. :)
I think you are confusing with multiposting in different forums (categories) of a Forum (web site) because the same name can apply. I can't believe would be a rule to not post the same in different web sites.
 
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I think you are confusing with multiposting in different forums (categories) of a Forum (web site) because the same name can apply. I can't believe would be a rule to not post the same in different web sites.
I use the two forums too, but if I have similar threads in each I make sure the wording is a bit different so this double posting allegations isn't used. The rules are made by the forum and the interpretation is theirs as well. :)
 
So what is the problem? I look for different opinions, as much as possible, and the very right answer I found there not here so that approach was right.
A more interesting question is since you are the unique administrator and moderator of physforum what are you doing here? It doesn't look good to me being the administrator/moderator of a forum and usually post in other one.

It seems to me that, though the approaches are different the same answer is offered on both forums. Mass is invariant and "relativistic mass" was an early and misleading interpretation of both some of the mathematics and experimental conclusions.

The only real difference in the conclusions I can see is the degree of speculation posted prior to a conclusive answer. And perhaps to some extent how easily answers on the two forums might be understood by "lay" readers.
 
Originally posted by Robittybob1
I use the two forums too, but if I have similar threads in each I make sure the wording is a bit different so this double posting allegations isn't used. The rules are made by the forum and the interpretation is theirs as well.
No way such rule would apply to different Forums in different web sites. What that would be? Some kind of copyrights in what is posted in forums? No way. It was always obvious for me that the same could be posted in different forums/websites with the aim to find the different answers from different approaches and opinions that could exist. I have done that for years and let me say it was very positive and productive for me and I think for other users too.
On the other side I was only warned some time I posted the same in different subforums of the same forum/website.
This can only be the right interpretation.
May be some administrator/moderator could clarify this for you.
 
Alpha, what this is saying then is really the same thing as $$p = mv$$, except it is doing so in 4 component vector math?
Not quite. It's saying that when you extend the 3 spatial dimensions notion of momentum into the relativistic 4 dimensional notion of momentum then the extra piece you add on is energy. $$\mathbf{p}$$ is the 3-momentum and $$p^{\mu}$$ is the 4-momentum, whose extra component is E, the energy of the object. This makes no reference to velocity. The relationship between velocity and momentum depends on other things (a Lagrangian, to be more specific) and the formula $$p=mv$$ is not true in most physical systems. In addition the expression also tells you that the square of the 4-momentum is related to the rest mass, something you can't get from the 3-momentum alone. The fact it related to the rest mass is independent of such notions as p=mv. The square of the 4-momentum being (plus or minus) the square of the rest mass is true even when p=mv is not.

Mass is mass, and the now archaic "relativistic mass" is actually the total energy involved for a moving mass, which is the mass-energy-momentum or $$mv$$?
Forget p=mv, it'll only confuse you. Momentum is momentum, trying to relate it to the rate of change of position is a different kettle of squirrels.
 
Not quite. It's saying that when you extend the 3 spatial dimensions notion of momentum into the relativistic 4 dimensional notion of momentum then the extra piece you add on is energy. $$\mathbf{p}$$ is the 3-momentum and $$p^{\mu}$$ is the 4-momentum, whose extra component is E, the energy of the object. This makes no reference to velocity. The relationship between velocity and momentum depends on other things (a Lagrangian, to be more specific) and the formula $$p=mv$$ is not true in most physical systems. In addition the expression also tells you that the square of the 4-momentum is related to the rest mass, something you can't get from the 3-momentum alone. The fact it related to the rest mass is independent of such notions as p=mv. The square of the 4-momentum being (plus or minus) the square of the rest mass is true even when p=mv is not.

Forget p=mv, it'll only confuse you. Momentum is momentum, trying to relate it to the rate of change of position is a different kettle of squirrels.

O.K. I think I see where you are going here. To be honest I have to struggle with some of the higher math. I just spent too much time doing other things in life and must admit at this late date it is not likely I am going to devote the time necessary to think, in those terms without effort.

I do understand that $$p = mv$$ is not really accurate, but the relativistic version $$p = mv\gamma$$, should be.., correct? And I can see from your explanation that the mass-energy-momentum relationship is likely more directly described as you presented it. That should not make 3-momentum descriptions inaccurate, just a bit more complex or involved, to arrive at the same conclusions...?

The problem it seems to me in some of these discussions, is that some of the better mathematical descriptions, are almost like answering in Greek, as far as many of those reading the threads are concerned. I often have go look things up and without the explaintion you just presented I could not be certain exactly what you were meaning. Again, I just don't think in those terms any longer.

AlphaNumeric said:
Forget p=mv, it'll only confuse you. Momentum is momentum, trying to relate it to the rate of change of position is a different kettle of squirrels.

BTW I do see what you meant here and yes i read a paper not long ago that spent several pages dealing with just this issue beginning with just the momentum and force equations.
 
I know that my knowledge in Relativity is very limited but I'm sure one thing, Relativity is a fantastic but wrong theory.
This is a completely unjustified assessment given the current state of physics. At its heart, relativity asserts that all the laws of physics possess a certain symmetry called Lorentz invariance. Because it's a symmetry, you can extract a few generic predictions like length contraction and time dilation, but SR's main prediction concerns the structure of other theories. And the current state of affairs is: our best model of particle interactons (the Standard Model) is Lorentz symmetric, and our best model of gravity (general relativity) is locally Lorentz symmetric. This isn't some small feat. Between them, general relativity and the Standard Model can be seen as a summary of all the physics and chemistry that has been discovered since the time of Newton. The electrodynamic sector of the Standard Model in particular is famously the most precisely verified theory in the history of physics.

Obviously we can't say what we'll find about more fundamental theories in the future, but as a statement about the best mainstream theories to date, relativity is a fact. It is unambiguously true of physics now in 2012.
 
martillo

I know that my knowledge in Relativity is very limited but I'm sure one thing, Relativity is a fantastic but wrong theory.

Why? Point to one experiment or prediction of Relativity that it has failed in the last one hundred years. Speed of light the same for all frames, proven. Time dilation due to velocity or mass, proven. Bending spacetime, proven. Length variation, proven. Invariance, proven. Equivalence of mass and energy, proven. Gravity waves, proven. Mass gain with velocity, proven. So far the batting average for your position, .000. While only one result that doesn't support Relativity would require revision or would falsify the theory, it has certainly withstood the test of time and anything you have posted so far.

Grumpy:cool:
 
This is a completely unjustified assessment given the current state of physics. At its heart, relativity asserts that all the laws of physics possess a certain symmetry called Lorentz invariance. Because it's a symmetry, you can extract a few generic predictions like length contraction and time dilation, but SR's main prediction concerns the structure of other theories. And the current state of affairs is: our best model of particle interactons (the Standard Model) is Lorentz symmetric, and our best model of gravity (general relativity) is locally Lorentz symmetric. This isn't some small feat. Between them, general relativity and the Standard Model can be seen as a summary of all the physics and chemistry that has been discovered since the time of Newton. The electrodynamic sector of the Standard Model in particular is famously the most precisely verified theory in the history of physics.

Obviously we can't say what we'll find about more fundamental theories in the future, but as a statement about the best mainstream theories to date, relativity is a fact. It is unambiguously true of physics now in 2012.

We are discussing this on another forum as well and the symmetry does break down:
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=38569&st=60&#entry512425
That is the bit that really throws me, for they tell us the traveled one comes back younger than the twin left behind but all the time the traveled one is thinking he is getting older faster than the one left behind , as you say "Seen from the train it is clocks on the station that 'run slow' ".

Yet for the one left on the ground the truth is validated, he sees time slowed in the traveling frame and when it returns he is found to have aged more as he had expect, but a real surprise is in store for the travelled one.

That is a real mystery to to this relativity thing for one is right and the other completely wrong. There is an error somewhere!
 
The whole point of the Twin Paradox is that the physical situation is not symmetric in that one twin experiences inertial motion and the other twin does not. So the asymmetry is not in Relativity but in the physical situation and thus the results (the non-inertial twin is discovered to be younger upon return to the neighborhood of the inertial twin).
 
The whole point of the Twin Paradox is that the physical situation is not symmetric in that one twin experiences inertial motion and the other twin does not. So the asymmetry is not in Relativity but in the physical situation and thus the results (the non-inertial twin is discovered to be younger upon return to the neighborhood of the inertial twin).
I accept that, for that is what I originally understood, but I was recently told you can't tell who is moving with respect to whom, so it is a lottery as to who will be the youngest when they get back together, for I was told they each think the other is moving and staying younger than the observer. But the ultimate proof is when they do return, the younger was in the non-inertial frame.
So how do you think and can rapidly tell which is the inertial and the non inertial frame at the start or during the experiment? OK it is possible to tell at the end but how do you know earlier than that?
:)
 
Same to you.
There's a "little" difference, I'm proposing something new, you propose nothing, while anybody knowdgeable in Physics knows there are problems to solve...

You're not proposing anything new. You're spewing nonsense. Nonsense like [your comment] "I know enough about relativity to know it's wrong". Apparently you haven't read the scientific literature on the subject? If you had maybe you wouldn't be making such ignorant comments. Ignorance is a choice.

PS When you quote somebody you should name the 'somebody'.
 
We are discussing this on another forum as well and the symmetry does break down:
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=38569&st=60&#entry512425
In line with what I said, Lorentz symmetry means that the laws of physics remain invariant under Lorentz transformations. There is no Lorentz transformation that maps an intertial observer to an accelerating observer.

I accept that, for that is what I originally understood, but I was recently told you can't tell who is moving with respect to whom, so it is a lottery as to who will be the youngest when they get back together, for I was told they each think the other is moving and staying younger than the observer.
In SR you can't tell who is moving relative to whom, but you can tell who is accelerating with respect to whom.
 
I was recently told you can't tell who is moving with respect to whom, so it is a lottery as to who will be the youngest when they get back together,
Citation required. (If it was on physforums.com, someone is getting a suspension or banning.)
for I was told they each think the other is moving and staying younger than the observer. But the ultimate proof is when they do return, the younger was in the non-inertial frame.
That's pretty much the definition of "return" in Lorentzian space-time. You can't return unless you turn around, and ultimately, accelerate.

So how do you think and can rapidly tell which is the inertial and the non inertial frame at the start or during the experiment? OK it is possible to tell at the end but how do you know earlier than that?
:)
An inertial environment has no gravity and no acceleration effects. The inertial twin knows that their environment is not accelerating. The non-inertial twin knows that a least at one point in their history they had acceleration from the effects on water, pendulums, etc and thus knows that if a return is possible, they will have aged less than the inertial twin.

Another way to see this is that if you have a triangle of inertial time-like paths in space time. Necessarily this triangle has a earliest vertex and a latest vertex and the paths describe an inertial and non-inertial path between the earliest and latest verticies. No matter how you draw this triangle, the non-inertial path (2 sides of the triangle) always has the shortest total proper time.
 
I accept that, for that is what I originally understood, but I was recently told you can't tell who is moving with respect to whom, so it is a lottery as to who will be the youngest when they get back together, for I was told they each think the other is moving and staying younger than the observer. But the ultimate proof is when they do return, the younger was in the non-inertial frame.
So how do you think and can rapidly tell which is the inertial and the non inertial frame at the start or during the experiment? OK it is possible to tell at the end but how do you know earlier than that?
:)

The non-inertial observer is the one that changes his velocity in order to return to the other observer. The inertial observer never changes his velocity, he always remains in the same inertial frame. The non-inertial observer changes inertial frames. He is in one inertial frame while they are separating, then changes to another inertial frame so that they will come back together. This switch of inertial frame also causes a change in what time he thinks it is back at the inertial observer's position. It will go from being behind his to being ahead of his.

I'm going to use an analogy to explain what I mean.

Imagine two men walking side by side at the same pace on a featureless plane. One of the men(man1) turns and walks in a different direction without changing his pace. After a while he looks to see how the other man (man 2) is progressing. He will note that man 2 is behind him, and that man 2 has made less progress in the direction that he himself is walking. Man 2 makes the same observation, that he has made more progress in the direction that he is walking than man 1 is. Since each man judges progress as distance traveled in the direction that he himself is walking, he sees the other man as falling behind.

This is the equivalent of time dilation, where clocks in motion with respect to each other see each other as running slow. The direction each man is walking is the equivalent of his inertial frame.

Note that the distinction of which man is really making less progress entirely depends on which direction the observer himself happens to be facing and that there is no one "true" direction from which we can make this determination.

Now Let's say that man 1 turns again, this time back so that he will intersect man 2's path (man 2 continues as normal). What does he see happening to man 2? He will appear to go from being behind man 1 to being in front of him. man 1 has changed to a new inertial frame, and in this one Man 2 is ahead of him. Since he still judges progress according to the direction he is facing, man 2 suddenly has made more progress than he has!

Man 2 only notices that man 1 has changed direction, but man 1 still remains behind him.

Man 1 continues until he intersects man 2's path and then turns a third time so that he faces the same direction as man 2. He will find that he is behind man 2.( a fact that man 2 concurs with). This is the equivalent of the traveling observer returning to find that he has aged less.

The fact that man 1 ends up behind man 2 has to do with the fact that after their paths had diverged, he changed direction. If, on the other hand, man 2 had changed direction, he would have been the one who found himself behind when they crossed each others path again. (note that it doesn't matter which one of them initially changes direction to start the divergence, only which one turned to return them to the same path.

So the upshot is that while both men agree as to the final outcome, they will disagree as to how this outcome came about. This is the thing about Relativity; everyone will agree as to what two clocks read when then meet, they just might not agree as to how things got that way.
 
That is sort of what I am finding. Unless they admit to each other their history of changes in inertia they won't know how each other got there.
So in the classic experiment where a train shoots through the station at near light speed we tend to think of the observer at the station as the unmoving one. But from the viewpoint of the person on the train it was the station that flew past them. Only if they were to admit they accelerated to near light speed earlier in the journey can we be sure the train is moving and not that the Earth (along with the station) has suddenly started rotating faster than ever. :)
 
Oh Relativity lovers... You really love it, isn't it? So much you got quite blind by its fantastic forms...
What a waste of time, resources and brain.
Sorry, nothing else I could say.
Good luck.
 
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Oh Relativity lovers... You really love it, isn't it? So much you got blind.
Love? Not really the right word. To give you an example of the attitude in the mainstream I'll repeat something I heard a relativist say on the radio today in regards to the neutrino experiments. He'd said when the experiment first announced the FTL neutrinos "If it turns out to be true I'll eat my underpants". Today, months later and after the announcement of technical mistakes, he said "If it had turned out to be true then eating my underpants would have been a small price to pay for such a result, for us all to go back to the drawing board and scratch our heads". That's my view. If I could disprove relativity wrong with an experiment tomorrow I'd do it without a second thought. Science advances most when you knock over a big pillar, just like I learn most when someone corrects a mistake I've made.

In 100 years most, if not all, of the models we currently have will be seen as effective theories, approximations, to more fundamental principles, just like Newton is to relativity or quantum mechanics to quantum field theory. To cling to something, even relativity, mindlessly is to spit in the face of science itself. Mainstream physicists are pragmatic and take things with a pinch of salt. We're cautious and wait for plenty of data. If something is counter to all our expectations we require considerable evidence, hence why the neutrino experiment has been testing everything it could have been (after all, the problem seems to have been a cable wasn't plugged in properly!). The claims you and your hack buddies make require considerable justification. If we just accepted you blindly wouldn't we be guilty of the thing you're accusing us of, mindlessly accepting a model (in this case relativity) without good reason? Relativity has earnt its place in physics and while few, if any, think it'll be there forever it'll need something big to pry it from its place. Your claims are fascicle and your attempts to rationalise why people dismiss you as somehow a love affair with relativity laughable.

What a waste of time, resources and brain.
The 20th century is a testiment to the advances of science, much of it physics related. Special relativity gave us general relativity and quantum field theory, the two most tested and accurately verified models of the universe ever conceived by Man. They've lead to electronics, lasers, nuclear technology, medical imaging, improved drug development, GPS navigation, improved understanding of the cosmos and now guide our understanding in areas like nanotechnology. Clearly the principles of relativity are worth understanding for many physicists (and even some chemists). The fact you're complaining about it being a 'waste' via the internet, a global telecommunication and data storage system based on semiconductors, electromagnetism and satellite technology is all the more ironic. I'm personally working on stuff right now which applies quantum field theoretic concepts to.... well I can't tell you that, security and all that, but suffice to say there's applications of such methods outside theoretical physics. I'd say the person(s) whose time has been wasted with all of this is you. You've been plugging your rubbish website for years on many different forums. You've accomplished nothing in science in that time. In the time between first seeing you on PhysForums and now people could get an entire degree or PhD. Yet you still seem to have little to no understanding of relevant physics.

Clearly you've invested your time wisely.
 
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