(Un)wired For God

[earth]

A tendency to bomb civilians is a sign of higher social functioning,

Here is where I have come to understand you’re being sarcastic more than anything. A sign of higher social functioning is when disagreeing parties can come together in hopes of working out a solution that is agreeable to the participants involved. Civility has been shown to be reachable through consideration and dialog, and a willingness to find middle ground without resorting to bloodshed.

The things you're referring to is when dialog isn't achieveable and fighting is the only option or last resort, certainly not a higher social function.

 

[S.A.M.]

Here is where I have come to understand you’re being sarcastic more than anything. A sign of higher social functioning is when disagreeing parties can come together in hopes of working out a solution that is agreeable to the participants involved. Civility has been shown to be reachable through consideration and dialog, and a willingness to find middle ground without resorting to bloodshed.

The things you're referring to is when dialog isn't achieveable and fighting is the only option or last resort, certainly not a higher social function.

What dialog?

 

[earth]

What dialog?

You're a good example, its up in arms.

 

[S.A.M.]

Exactly, it takes two to dialog not one person beating their head against a white phosphorus shell

So yeah, spare me the areligious socially functional societies.

 

[earth]

Exactly, it takes two to dialog not one person beating their head against a white phosphorus shell

So yeah, spare me the areligious socially functional societies.

Please tell me what do you expect to achieve with the tactics you use? Maybe is just frustration you're venting.

 

[S.A.M.]

Please tell me what do you expect to acheive with the tactics you use? Maybe is just frustration you're venting.

Why do I have to achieve anything? I'm just enjoying all the freedom of expression.

 

[James R]

Michael:

It does make one wonder (as posited in the article): Does religiosity lead to social dysfunction? If YES then what? Is it possible that many of the problems in the poorest countries are a direct result of their being so religious? A vicious cycle?

I think the article is making a different point: that it is possible that social dysfunction leads to increased religiosity. This has the causation around the opposite way to how you have put it. As I read it, the article postulates that people turn to religion when things aren't going so well in their societies. When people are generally happy, religion assumes less importance in their lives.

 

[CptBork]

That certainly explains why most people follow religion except for the few outliers who self select themselves against reproduction

Translation: "Atheists are all queers, that's why they're atheist to begin with".

Please feel free to correct me.

 

[earth]

Michael:
I think the article is making a different point: that it is possible that social dysfunction leads to increased religiosity. This has the causation around the opposite way to how you have put it. As I read it, the article postulates that people turn to religion when things aren't going so well in their societies. When people are generally happy, religion assumes less importance in their lives.

Your statement is true. If I get anything out of biblical passages it is that God causes calamities to happen so people will turn to him, the author of religion. Pat Robertson on his TV show has expressed this belief several times through his predictions that God is bringing judgment on the world.

 

[scifes]

Michael:



I think the article is making a different point: that it is possible that social dysfunction leads to increased religiosity. This has the causation around the opposite way to how you have put it. As I read it, the article postulates that people turn to religion when things aren't going so well in their societies. When people are generally happy, religion assumes less importance in their lives.

i understood that, but he points to the opposite here:

NOTE: It does make one wonder (as posited in the article): Does religiosity lead to social dysfunction? If YES then what? Is it possible that many of the problems in the poorest countries are a direct result of their being so religious? A vicious cycle?

it's somewhat given that, more suffering-->sticking to god more..mister michael conected this to a circule, by proposing from himself that sticking to god causes more suffering and so sticking to god more..etc.

of course that's BS, so what did yasmin and enmos like or find interesting about it?

Oh, well then, SAM, stop bitching about the US invasion of Iraq. It's history - accept it. That's the way it's always been so that's the way it will always be. At least till the oils been sucked out of the gount. Oh, and stop whining about Palestine, you don't live there (and so according to you have no say in the matter) and hey, it's history, get used to it.

here i agree..
muslims have a tendency of crying on lost lands and great times where they lead the world, they actually still call them THEIR lands sometimes, like spain for instance..

but i think that in the same way we took it from others and it became ours, they can take it back and it becomes theirs, especially when done in a straight manner, instead of the slithering cockroach backstabbing manner, like in turkey, or the othmanian empire.

as for palestine, i think the jews got there by an unfair method applied by the west, so of course it'll be DEFENDED by the west, and of course complaining to the west about it will yield no results.

if they admit they did it unrightly, what can you do about it? who will you go cry to? if there is such a side then go complain to it in the first place, if there's no such side, then strengthen yourself till you can take it back by force in the same way it was taken initially.


i really think it's a matter unchanged by words anymore.

 

[yasmin]

i understood that, but he points to the opposite here:




it's somewhat given that, more suffering-->sticking to god more..mister michael conected this to a circule, by proposing from himself that sticking to god causes more suffering and so sticking to god more..etc.

of course that's BS, so what did yasmin and enmos like or find interesting about it?

I saw the need for religion described as a consequence of suffering not as a cause, did i miss something???

 

[S.A.M.]

Translation: "Atheists are all queers, that's why they're atheist to begin with".

Please feel free to correct me.

Nah yours is better than mine.

Meanwhile did anyone pick up the conflation of non-religious with secular or atheist? Lori is a nondenominational theist and would probably classify as nonreligious. So would ToR.

 

[scifes]

I saw the need for religion described as a consequence of suffering not as a cause, did i miss something???

doesn't he in his last post make it look like a cause too?

 

[earth]

I saw the need for religion described as a consequence of suffering not as a cause, did i miss something???

According to some theologians, God causes hard times or suffering so that those suffering or in need will turn to him.

If you listen to the claims made by religious TV programming they all say God has the answers. Thereby revealing religion is catering to people in need or are suffering and of course sending money to televangelist is always part of getting an answer.

 

[yasmin]

doesn't he in his last post make it look like a cause too?

OK! I see your point. Let's analyze this for a second: I do not think being religious causes people become criminals, having abortions, poverty and all of the other things he discribes as part of a dysfunctional society.

I do think being religious causes many people to be selfrightgeous to the point they can kill others who do not agree with them such as the muslims involved in 911, or who would kill people who their religions condemn as we can see those serial killers who would regularly go to church yet they killed dozens of prostitutes, but these are exceptions.

My problem with religions is hypocrisy, selfrightgeousness. intolerance of some religious people and the closing of the mind to reasoning.

In my experience,the people who have hurt me most in my life have been the most religious people. Many feel entitled to crucify you just because you do not go to church, obsessed with finding things wrong with you or proving you wrong or to impose their belifs upon you. They feel they are above everybody else. Is this the experience of everybody else? I do not know.

To what degree this affect the functioning of a of society? The closing of the mind that religions bring about, to me, is the most harming effect. Societies can not develop unless reasoning is allowed and promoted, religions would dissapear if people were allowed to question their beliefs. I do not know if or how this lack of reasoning, hypocrisy, selfrighgeousness, intolerance can affect crime, poverty, unwanted pregnancies, etc. It would be interesting to know...

 

[earth]

If religious beliefs are correct then it has to be God behind the causing of a disfunctional society.

 

[yasmin]

According to some theologians, God causes hard times or suffering so that those suffering or in need will turn to him.

If you listen to the claims made by religious TV programming they all say God has the answers. Thereby revealing religion is catering to people in need or are suffering and of course sending money to televangelist is always part of getting an answer.

I agree with you. Now, I think is difficult to determine the degree of harm that these unethical behaviours that seem to be associated to the practice of religions can cause to society at large.
It would be interesting to know if say for instance what is the percentage of people who became criminals because they have felt rejected (directly or indirectly) by society based of their religion or lack of it?. Or the percentage of teenagers that end up with unwanted pregnancies, because thery wouln't talk to their parents fearful of their reactions based on rigid religious rules? :shrug:

 

[earth]

All that can be done is educate people instructing them in the correct behavior concerning the values society recognized as proper. After that, crime relates to acquaintances and relationships influencing a person or a need. Unwanted pregnancies in teenagers are directly related to sex drive, the attraction aspect and a need to be desired.

 

[Michael]

I just feel that you are somehow confirming what i have been observing about people's need for a religion.
I was commenting with my friends last night about your post, I wish I could have ever experienced that expansion the boundaries of my body into the cosmos as is described above. I just cannot sit still or meditate, I am too hyper for that, I doubt I will ever have that experience, but it would be interesting to have it.

Me too. I am still hopeful that it will be possible to achieve one day. It took a friend of mine 3 years of nothing before he got it - after that he loves meditation now. Not saying it will take 3 years, just, it can and you can still have it happen.

Are we in the (possibly, hopefully) transition stage between needing religion's simplistic set of assumptions and seeing scientific method as the better tool with greater explanatory power? (sorry for digressing, it's mid-coffee time and the OP catches my fancy)

Actually, I think that this did happen during the enlightenment. It's almost as if we are regressing?

Michael:
I think the article is making a different point: that it is possible that social dysfunction leads to increased religiosity. This has the causation around the opposite way to how you have put it. As I read it, the article postulates that people turn to religion when things aren't going so well in their societies. When people are generally happy, religion assumes less importance in their lives.

Yes that's true. It's a correlation.
Secure safe societies are correlated with being less religious.
Insecure dangerous societies are correlated with being more religious.

But it still is only a correlation, so, it could be the other way around.

doesn't he in his last post make it look like a cause too?

OK! I see your point. Let's analyze this for a second: I do not think being religious causes people become criminals, having abortions, poverty and all of the other things he discribes as part of a dysfunctional society.

I think it depends on the fundamental beliefs of the religion and what role they play in promoting peace or fear in society.

 

[scifes]

OK! I see your point. Let's analyze this for a second: I do not think being religious causes people become criminals, having abortions, poverty and all of the other things he discribes as part of a dysfunctional society.

I do think being religious causes many people to be selfrightgeous to the point they can kill others who do not agree with them such as the muslims involved in 911,

one, being self righteous about religion is an extreme that can be taken with any concept, such as self defense, like the americans defending themselves in other continents using nuclear bombs, where is religion there? it can be applied without religion, self righteousness can be adopted by any freak of justice, or of any other idea, religious or not.


which takes us to two: i really believe islam was and is a scapegoat said to cause acts of terrorism, while i think they mainly are reactions to depression more than acts of islam. true, terrorists may paint their actions as religious, and do them in the name of religion, but if there was no islam, would they not have done their acts of "terrorism".

and this isn't only to islam and terrorism, was the only reason to the crusades religious? was religion a matter at all? or is it only a bell to ring to start things rolling?

My problem with religions is hypocrisy, selfrightgeousness. intolerance of some religious people and the closing of the mind to reasoning.

In my experience,the people who have hurt me most in my life have been the most religious people. Many feel entitled to crucify you just because you do not go to church, obsessed with finding things wrong with you or proving you wrong or to impose their belifs upon you. They feel they are above everybody else. Is this the experience of everybody else? I do not know.

i feel this is personal experience, who am i to tell you what to feel or what to make of what happens to you?

To what degree this affect the functioning of a of society? The closing of the mind that religions bring about, to me, is the most harming effect.

again, bringing us to religious dogma, being unchanged, closed, we should free the mind.

if one truly freed his mind he would reach the conclusion that he should close it.

check out dogma's a bitch.

Societies can not develop unless reasoning is allowed and promoted,

yes, but with limits.
limits reached by reasoning, but reaching limits nonetheless.

religions would dissapear if people were allowed to question their beliefs.

some would.
some are.
some won't.
some aren't.

If religious beliefs are correct then it has to be God behind the causing of a disfunctional society.

you could be responsible and say we screw our societies by not listening to god.

or you could be a spineless shrimp and say it's god's fault for giving us choice to disobey him.