UFOs (UAPs): Explanations?

We already knew about the commuter plane debunk for the second video, So there's nothing new here.
I stated at the outset of 9555 that this was new to me.

If you knew this, you ought to have brought it forward long ago, perhaps along with a mea culpa for your defense of the fidelity of video.

Moral of the story: Don't take everything Wikipedia claims as gospel.
The Wiki reference is irrelevant now, since as you point out, this is all part of the official report now.

The take-aways remain - in fact, you have now conceded them yourself:

- Videos lie.
- Even very clear, detailed, focused, moving images cannot always be trusted.
- What we think we see in photos and videos is not always what is really there. Doubly so for apparently extraordinary things.
- Even the clearest, most detailed moving image of a UAP - with what appears to be a well-defined shape, specular highlights and shadows, plenty of context, background detail for reference and everything - cannot be trusted to actually be what it seems
- Even the experts - the cream of the crop - can be fooled.
- AARO initially classified this as "truly anomalous", and it has since been re-classified as an airplane.

- It behooves you to adjust your personal expectations of how much a photo or video can be trusted to show that is really there.

And an additional one:
- If this UAP account can be debunked as an artifact, that means potentially most or all the rest potentially could be.


And, sure, I'm still waiting to hear your ideas about the term anomaly... Or has the cat got your tongue?
 
I'am a sceptic who wants to believe that UAP in some cases maybe of a extraterrestrial origin.
So far the evidence is not there.

So what do you think about all the recent reports by the US military and the Pentagon of uaps witnessed and captured on video and radar? Metallic spheres and 40 ft long tic tacs performing impossible maneuvers. Plenty of credible accounts there of uaps that constitutes solid evidence.

 
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Actually there's alot of reasons it couldn't have been a drone
Like what?
Seriously? A bug on what windshield? The FLIR camera? Your explanations are beginning to sound as absurdly ad hoc as Mick West's party balloons! lol
Yes, seriously.

Aren't you at all curious as to why I would suggest such a thing? No, of course you aren't. Because troll.

And yes, you are right to be nervous.
 
Moderator note: Magical Realist has been warned (again) for trolling.

Nobody is actually as stupid as Magical Realist pretends to be.

Due to accumulated warnings, MR will once again be absent for while from sciforums.


MR's gambit that he is simply too stupid to be able to understand what NASA means when it says that something can't be identified as a mundane object - even after DaveC walked him through a careful explanation two or three times - is not even clever trolling.

And that was followed by MR's refusal to accept that yet another one of his "metallic orbs" has been found to be a perfectly ordinary aircraft.
 
So what do you think about all the recent reports by the US military and the Pentagon of uaps witnessed and captured on video and radar? Metallic spheres and 40 ft long tic tacs performing impossible maneuvers.
How recent? Are you implying that there are new reports of your "metallic spheres" that add something to the story we've already covered numerous times here on sciforums over the course of the past year or two?

Because - of course - you know what we all think about those previous reports of things that look like metallic spheres. You would be trolling to pretend not to remember all the past discussions we've had about those - the ones where you made a bunch of unsupportable claims and were explicitly corrected by people who pointed out numerous ways in which your unsupported claims were deficient.

When you get back from your break, please present some of your "new" cases. Include all relevant dates, please.
Plenty of credible accounts there of uaps that constitutes solid evidence.
Solid evidence of what? Why won't you say? Is it because troll?
 
A 1979 NASA paper on field resonance propulsion theory as a hypothetical means of understanding extraordinary ufo behavior and their energy emissions/effects. Sounds plausible from my layman's point of view. It certainly would explain the common observations of ufos making instantaneous accelerations/changes in direction and even teleporting from one location to another. Note that all of this was being studied in 1979, long before the recent upsurge of interest in the uap phenomenon had arisen. Does NASA wake up every day in an entirely new world?


"UFO studies indicate that the unexplained (residual) UFO phenomena may be due to extraterrestrial visitors, parapsychological experiences, or a combination of the two. If some UFO phenomena are caused by extraterrestrial visitors in very advanced spacecraft, then the frequency of visits and the large number of different types of visitors (many different humanoids have been described) imply an ability to cross large stretches of galactic and inter-galactic space in relatively short time frames.• If the speed of light is a true limit of velocity in space-time, then the potential extraterrestrial visitors must utilize a form of transportation which transcends space and time to keep the trip times short. .UFOs are often observed to disappear instantaneously. In a subset of these cases ,the UFO later reappears at a nearby location implying a disappearance from and a reappearance into space-time.

The high speed, right angle turns, abrupt stops or accelerations of UFOs, and the absence of sonic booms despite calculated speeds of 22,000 mph or more suggest that UFOs may generate an artificial gravitational field or otherwise use properties of space-time which we are not familiar with, UFO propulsion systems appear to involve electromagnetic or hydromagnetic processes as evidenced by radiative effects on the environment such as burns, dehydration, stopping of automobile engines, TV and radio disruption, melting or alteration of ground and road surfaces, power disruptions, and static electricity effects. This data suggests that the unknown relationship between electromagnetic and gravitational fields may be used in UFO propulsion systems."
 
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Oh I see. So "cannot be identified as a mundane object" means "can be identified as a mundane object," Yeah...that makes perfect sense.

Do you even know what anomalous means?

I suppose that 'anomalous' is being used to mean something like 'reports that are inconsistent with all known causes' or something like that.

There seem to be two ways out of that inconsistency:

1. Expand the scope of 'known cause' so as to potentially discover something new.

2. Attack the report in such a way that there would no longer be any inconsistency with already-known causes and hence nothing new to discover.

I believe that NASA was opting to take at least some reports at face value (based on proven general reliability of observers and instruments) and was trying to define a problem class of 'anomalous' reports worthy of further investigation, as opposed to simply dismissing those reports with an a priori assumption that they must be flawed - because they report what is dismissed by some people as "woo". I applaud them for that.

That doesn't mean that the possibility of instrumental or observer error shouldn't be investigated, or that it's somehow impossible that these problem cases will prove to have "mundane" explanations. (That belief would be bias one way.) It just means that instrumental or observer error shouldn't simply be assumed. (Which is bias the other way.)
 
A 1979 NASA paper on field resonance propulsion theory as a hypothetical means of understanding extraordinary ufo behavior and their energy emissions/effects.
Gee wizz! A 45 year old paper that goes "woo" at UFOs!

Sounds plausible from my layman's point of view.
This is from the "Forward" in the paper - i.e. the very first thing you'd read after the title pages:

"The speculative "propulsion" concept'described in this paper was presented at a special session of the 15th Joint AIAA/SAE/ASME Propulsion Conference(June 18-20, 1979), "Propulsion Concepts for Galactic Spacecraft". The concept was developed as the result of private, unofficial research. NASA is not involved in UFO research."

In other words, this isn't a "NASA paper". Not if you're being honest about it. It's only a NASA paper to the extent that it was presented to NASA.

It certainly would explain the common observations of ufos making instantaneous accelerations/changes in direction and even teleporting from one location to another.
Reported observations and some speculative guesswork, you mean. Not confirmed observations. (Teleporting, my arse.)
Note that all of this was being studied in 1979, long before the recent upsurge of interest in the uap phenomenon had arisen. Does NASA wake up every day in an entirely new world?
Right. The UFO nuts have had 70 years since the 1950s UFO flap to find some decent evidence of extraterrestrial spacecraft and what have they come up with? Nothing that stands up to reasonable skeptical analysis.
"UFO studies indicate that the unexplained (residual) UFO phenomena may be due to extraterrestrial visitors, parapsychological experiences, or a combination of the two.
Say what? Studies indicated that, 45 years ago, in 1979? What was being studied, exactly?

Oh, but wait. The studies indicated that the phenomena may be due to blah blah blah. What was the estimated chance that the UFOs would turn out to be any of the things mentioned, and how was that chance calculated?

Show me the studies!
If some UFO phenomena are caused by extraterrestrial visitors in very advanced spacecraft, then the frequency of visits and the large number of different types of visitors (many different humanoids have been described) imply an ability to cross large stretches of galactic and inter-galactic space in relatively short time frames.
I think the author means if some UFO phenomena are caused by blah blah and if there are actually frequent visits and if there are actually different types of visitors then maybe there's an ability to cross large stretches of space etc.

That's a lot of "ifs". Where are the studies that the author mentioned? All I see here is speculation and imagination.
If the speed of light is a true limit of velocity in space-time, then the potential extraterrestrial visitors must utilize a form of transportation which transcends space and time to keep the trip times short.
Why "must"? Surely the idea of colony ark ships existed back in the good old days of 1979?
UFOs are often observed to disappear instantaneously.
Certainly, there are reports of that.
In a subset of these cases ,the UFO later reappears at a nearby location implying a disappearance from and a reappearance into space-time.
Or implying that a different unidentified thing was later seen at a nearby location. Or implying that an unidentified thing moved from one location to another without doing anything especially magical.
The high speed, right angle turns, abrupt stops or accelerations of UFOs,...
... none of which have been confirmed to be due to an actual object in the sky, except in cases where the object was later identified as an ordinary aircraft or similar ...
... and the absence of sonic booms...
... which could indicate just as easily indicate that there was no actual object moving faster than the speed of sound ...
... despite calculated speeds of 22,000 mph or more ...
... estimated speeds, calculated based on various assumptions and guesses...

... suggest that UFOs may generate an artificial gravitational field or otherwise use properties of space-time which we are not familiar with...
Well, we're certainly putting the cart before the horse here, aren't we? And there's the word "may" again. Every time we see "may" in this paper it would be wise to add a mental "or may not".
... UFO propulsion systems ...
... of which not a single example has been studied, because the "U" in UFO means "Unidentified"...
... appear to involve electromagnetic or hydromagnetic processes as evidenced by radiative effects on the environment such as burns, dehydration, stopping of automobile engines, TV and radio disruption, melting or alteration of ground and road surfaces, power disruptions, and static electricity effects.
And as we all know, only mysterious propulsion systems can possibly produce radiative effects on the environment, dehydration, the stopping of automobile engines, TV and radio disruption etc. etc. And all this time I was under the impression that potholes in the road were caused by rain! It's the aliens, I tell you! The aliens!
This data suggests that the unknown relationship between electromagnetic and gravitational fields may be used in UFO propulsion systems."
What data could possibly suggest a specific unknown relationship?

How did the author know about unknown relationships?
 
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I suppose that 'anomalous' is being used to mean something like 'reports that are inconsistent with all known causes' or something like that.
You might like to cast your mind back one month ago, to when you posted this:


If you scroll down, you will find a couple of replies I wrote to that, which are interesting and expand on what you wrote. You ignored my replies, of course, and I expect you'll ignore this one too. But I post the link in case somebody else is interested in continuing the discussion.
 
What would it sound like if Arnold Schwarzenegger or Christof Koch was involved in UAP demystification?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

link: Volcano UFO debunked & explained

VIDEO EXCERPTS: In today's video we’re analyzing, explaining and debunking three clips.Two of alleged UAPs and one of a giant mysterious cryptid creature. [...] the first video we're going to discuss was recorded over a Mexican volcano...

[...] So I think from the way it moves it's pretty clear that it's not aliens. My theory is what we're looking at here is a helicopter. ... as soon as it descends slowly towards the smoke, look how it gets blown away ... in the closeup, look how the smoke reacts, That's how smoke reacts that is exposed to a helicopter ... It might also be a big drone. It is pretty common that we fly drones over volcanoes to get shots. ... However, this particular footage allegedly is from 2013. Drones were less common at that time. Again, it's another nudge towards a helicopter...


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

link: Canadian UAP incident explained & debunked

VIDEO EXCERPT: A video clip that's been going viral on social media in the past few days. It shows a couple filming an alleged UFO, or a bunch of UFOs, in the sky above Winnipeg River in Canada. Now we're going to take a look at the clip first and then discuss.

[...] I'm like what's going on, bro? He's like, "Oh there's a bunch of UFOs, darling. Give me the worst camera you can find and let me film this." ... I really tried hard to find better footage of this this clip, but this is the best you can find. The best you can get is 360p. I mean, dude, what year are we in -- like 1995? Unbelievable! Keep that in mind we're probably losing out on a lot of detail here, which will actually become important later on...

 
UAP spotted. No wings, rudder or other surfaces, no obvious method of propulsion - and a high-quality image to-boot.

I'd say that de facto falls in the category of "compelling".


1000003935.jpg
 
Extraordinary mass uap sighting last month on June 5th above the Red Rocks concert venue in Golding Colorado at 1 AM.. Seen by 12 eyewitnesses and was a large metallic disk that was hovering to the north about a mile away. It was described as having 3 rows of windows as well as lights and after about 30 seconds tilted and then headed east. Then it simply vanished in thin air!

I predict this sighting will go down in history as one of those compelling landmark ufo cases along with the Chicago O'Hare Airport ufo, the Stephenville Tx sightings, the Hudson Valley NY ufos, the Levelland TX landings, the Ariel school Zimbabwe landing, as well as others.

Takeaways: The fact that there were windows proves that, as is often denied by skeptics, that at least SOME uaps are craft of some sort. And the fact that it vanished suggests a cloaking capability as seen in other cases. Also, it was described as totally silent, as is consistent with nearly every uap/ufo sighting. Here's an excerpt of the actual NUFORC report called in on the day it happened:

"What we saw was a classic disc shaped metallic craft that was several hundred yards long. It had three levels of windows, almost like really long 3 story office building. This thing was totally silent. It didn't make a sound. What's even crazier is that as soon as we all started noticing it and stopped what we were doing to pay attention to it, the craft tipped at an angle and slowly started moving belly-first to the east. Then it started fading away until it was invisible. It didn't shoot off into the distance. It simply dissolved into the ether. We all watched it vanish.

This was not a plane. It wasn't a satellite, a drone, or anything like that. There was no mistaking what this was: We all saw a giant disc shaped craft hovering a few hundred feet above the ground with three rows of windows and lights. Then we all saw it fade into nothing as soon as it knew it was being watched.

There were a dozen other people who saw it with me."


Checked Mick West's site Metabunk and all they can suggest is some sort of crane or quarry equipment seen from a distance. But that doesn't explain its disk shape, its movement to the east, the 3 rows of windows, or the fact that it just vanished. Mick posts the daylit northern view of where they saw the ufo. But it shows nothing. IOW they got nothing...

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/claim-1...ado.13524/
 
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The fact that there were windows proves that, as is often denied by skeptics, that at least SOME uaps are craft of some sort.
Eyewitnesses seeing rectangular shapes does not "prove" they are windows. Millions of things in the mundane world have rectangular markings but are not windows.

Drawing such a conclusion is a rookie witness error. He can't know they're windows. Best he can say is they looked like they might be windows.

We have been over this a dozen times. You know better.

And the fact that it vanished suggests a cloaking capability as seen in other cases.
It more likely suggests it just became unable to be seen. That routinely happens with objects in the air. Commerical airicraft, for example can be very bright when the sun catches them the right way, but once they have moved just a short distance, the sun is no longer reflected directly at us, and they dim to reflect the sky. When this happens they become invisible to the eye. (Note that such objects don't ahve to move under their own pwoer to do this. It is simply a consequence of the sun's rays, geometry and time.)

We have been over this a dozen times. You know better.


Also, it was described as totally silent, as is consistent with nearly every uap/ufo sighting.

Makes sense. Considering the overwhelmingly vast majority of UAPs make no sound - in no small part because the record shows that the overwhelmingly vast majority of UAPs turn out to be mundane misidentified non-craft - and mundane misidentified non-craft don't tend to make sounds.

In fact, this is evidence against it being a craft.

(Doubt this? Imagine for a moment that the eyewitnesses reported that it did make a sound. Would you then be saying "Hm. Most UAPs are silent, so this is unlikely to be a craft"? No. You'd be saying "Nooo making a sound is evidence that it is a craft". You can't have it both ways.)

We have been over this a dozen times. You know better.


"What we saw was a classic disc shaped metallic craft that was several hundred yards long.
How did he determine how big it was? If it was a half mile away and 200 yards long it would subtend the same angle as if it were 5 miles away and 2000 yards long.

This is the report of a rookie witness, who doesn't know one of the primary principles of UAP analysis: Without background context if you don't know how far away an unknown object is you can't determine how large it is. Likewise, if you can't tell how large an unknown object is you can't say how far away it is.

You would know this if you had the slightest interest in objective UAP analysis.


It had three levels of windows,
How did he "determine" that they were windows, as opposed to rectangular markings, protrusions or indentations?

Another rookie eyewitness error.

This thing was totally silent. It didn't make a sound.
Yup. Most UAPs are silent - including (especially) the ones that are just misidentifications of plain ol things - like, say, flying canvas tents. They're silent too.

and slowly started moving belly-first to the east. Then it started fading away until it was invisible.
As any object moving away will do.

This was not a plane. It wasn't a satellite, a drone, or anything like that. There was no mistaking what this was: We all saw a giant disc shaped craft hovering a few hundred feet above the ground with three rows of windows and lights. Then we all saw it fade into nothing as soon as it knew it was being watched.
Those are conclusions, not observations.

Checked Mick West's site Metabunk and all they can suggest is some sort of crane or quarry equipment seen from a distance. But that doesn't explain its disk shape, its movement to the east, the 3 rows of windows, or the fact that it just vanished. Mick posts the daylit northern view of where they saw the ufo.
Anything in sky that's not powered will move with the wind ("...moved 5-10mph east"). Check.
Rectangular shapes are not automatically windows. Check.
Vanishing is what things do when they get farther away in the sky. Check.


But it shows nothing. IOW they got nothing...
You still mistake the burden of proof.

It is nothing - unless you can show it's not nothing. And this is a pretty lousy example of "not nothing".



And finally: a dozen witnesses, plenty of time while it moved off to the East ... and not one single person thought to raise their camera phone? That may be the most damning factor in this whole account.
 
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He can't know they're windows. Best he can say is they looked like they might be windows.

Well, we have what he and 11 other people saw with their own eyes and that looked like 3 rows of windows versus what you didn't see and are claiming wasn't windows based on nothing. So who is the more reliable source here? I think it's obvious.

Why do you keep thinking the same lies will work?

What lies? Quotes please...
 
Well, we have what he saw with his own eyes and that looked like 3 rows of windows
He cannot "know" they are windows. Yes, they "looked like" windows. Millions of normal things in the world have rectangular markings, protrusions or indentations. Including crane and quarry equipment.


It's a pity he - or anyone else - didn't think to raise their phone camera and take a pic, eh? Then we wouldn't have to take the word of a rookie witness who is piss-poor at observing things in the sky.

versus what you didn't see and are claiming wasn't windows based on nothing. So who is the reliable source here? I think it's obvious.
This is a category error.

Because someone interpreted what they saw doesn't make it so. That is not evidence that the thing had windows, and therefore is not evidence that it was any sort of craft.

I am not here to say it wasn't some non-human craft; I am simply pointing out that it falls within the parameters of some very mundane things. And 80 years of data strongly support that.

You can believe what you want, but that is not what objective, critical analysis of UAP accounts is about.



You know this. We have been over this kind of logic a dozen times.
 
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Because someone interpreted what they saw doesn't make it so.

Yeah...you're interpreting too, only it's not based on anything you actually saw. His interpretation IS based on what he saw, so between the two I will definitely go by his eyewitness account rather than by your own baseless speculation.

That is not evidence that the thing had windows, and therefore is not evidence that it was any sort of craft.

Yep...its eyewitness evidence that it had windows. Most things after all are what they visually appear to be.
 
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Yeah...you're interpreting too,
No. I am itemizing the possibilities.

You see, I have an open mind that accounts for possibilties. You have a closed mind that can only see one interpretation - the one that fits what you want to believe.

I never conclude "it must be X", or "it can't be Y".

But you can't argue with logic:
If it moved away "at 5 to 10 mph" as stated, that is consistent with floating, unpowered in the wind.
Without background context - if they don't know how far away an unknown object is, they can't say how big it is.
These are logical things you can't dismiss.

The point here is: what specific property of this account can't be mundane? You can't name one specific property that violates what we know mundane objects can do.


only it's not based on anything you actually saw. His interpretation IS based on what he saw, so between the two I will go by his eyewitness account
And that is why you are so bad at this.

You are welcome to believe what you want, but you haven't defended it objectively. And this is a discussion forum, where your beliefs will be challenged, and you will be expected to defend them.

So, you've made your personal case. It ends with "I want to believe" and with that, you rest.
Now let the rest of us do some proper objective analysis that goes beyond "I want to believe".
 
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I don't need your permission to form my own conclusions. I will believe according the evidence given, just as I always do.
Yes. And you have done so.

Now the rest of us will do some objective analysis. Try not to look foolish or trollish by interrupting with repeats of "But I belieeeve so strongly!"
 
"But I belieeeve so strongly!"

That's in quotes. So when did I ever say that?

you can't name one specific property that violates what we know mundane objects can do.

LOL That it vanished into thin air. Mundane objects don't do that.

Now the rest of us will do some objective analysis.

Always trying to debunk is not anything like objective analysis. It's assuming you know the uap is a mundane object and not an unidentified anomalous phenomenon. It's confirmation bias pure and simple.

"Confirmation bias is a type of cognitive bias that favors information that confirms your previously existing beliefs or biases."
 
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