Twin paradox (Pete and MacM)

Status
Not open for further replies.
As I stated earlier, I believe the lifetime of a short-lived particle is increased
as its energy and mass increases. The extended life-time of a muon moving
through the Earth's atmosphere is a result of the muon's increase in energy
and mass over its 'rest frame.' What causes this increase in energy? Travel
through the Earth's magnetic field at close to the speed of light. Earth's magnetic field (not magnetosphere) is evident even at ground level as shown
by any compass. Near 'c' movement of a charged particle (muon) through a
magnetic field increases the energy, and thus mass, of the particle, whether
that magnetic field is inside a particle accelerator or the Earth's atmosphere. Like
SRT's 'time dilation', the increase in energy and mass may not be detectable
at lower velocities. What is wrong with this speculation? Magnetic fields are
known to exert forces on charged particles.
 
MacM:

Briefly, with regard to the steps as numbered in your attachments above:

(1) should specify that the standards only stay the same if measured locally. Your failure to do that is dishonest.

(7) is invalid to set up a monitor at B of A's clock, since B is using a local standard to supposedly monitor a distant clock. This is your major misconception, and has been clearly explained to you many times in this thread. It renders your entire procedure invalid.

In (8) there is no a priori guarantee of simultaneity.

The word "now" in (9) is undefined.

(10) is false.

(11) is true, but only because the calibration is not done properly. A flase calibration leads to a false result. Garbage in; garbage out.

Simultaneity is not established in (12).

(13) is probably correct. It depends on details which have not yet been discussed.

(14) is correct, provided the monitor is correctly calibrated to factor out the signalling delays.

We can't discuss (15) until the procedure for stopping the clocks is specified.

The formula in (16) is as incorrect as it has always been. The formula displayed there is false in all respects, and is not a relativistic formula. The claim that relativity requires a single clock to display two different times at once is a spurious lie which has been corrected many times in this thread.
 
2inquisitive:

Magnetic forces on charged particles do not increase the particles' energy.
 
Mac, the record speaks for itself - it doesn't need your misinterpretation.
 
James R said:
MacM:

Briefly, with regard to the steps as numbered in your attachments above:

(1) should specify that the standards only stay the same if measured locally. Your failure to do that is dishonest.

No. The dishonesty is from your side. I made no assumptions other than I took t1 to be valid in the t2 = t1 ( 1 - v^2 / c^2)^.5 formula and further used a correct doppler shift for the affect or relative velocity on the frequencies of signals being received.

Where is the error (dishonesty) in that?

(7) is invalid to set up a monitor at B of A's clock, since B is using a local standard to supposedly monitor a distant clock. This is your major misconception, and has been clearly explained to you many times in this thread. It renders your entire procedure invalid.

You have shown no such failure of the proceedure. It assumes B's local standard and applies the coded 10/1 ratio to that standard. It hence upon transmitting 100,000 pulses to A's monitor counter displays 1 second of accumulated time.

If B's function were any different it's accumulated time after a test period would not match A's reading. Since it does it shows they are the same.

For your view to be valid there would have to be no synchronization betweenthe clocks. To claim that you have to differentiate signal delay times between the two clocks. Since each operate off of a light signal ans see the same affects to each's light signal the timing is synchronized.


In (8) there is no a priori guarantee of simultaneity.

Only if you disregard basic physics and correct mathematics regarding finite and invariant light velocity in favor of AD HOC THEORY.

The word "now" in (9) is undefined.

The word now could be eliminated, not that it violates anything however because inspite of your resistance to recognize that the clocks are indeed synchronized, they are infact.

(10) is false.

You are required to do more than move your lips. You have provided no justification to assert your claim.

(11) is true, but only because the calibration is not done properly. A flase calibration leads to a false result. Garbage in; garbage out.

Garbage is your ad lib objection with no factual description of an error. Please show just how taking information from the light communication signal and translating that to a monitor tick rate does not equal the tick rate B has told A to set locally.

Simultaneity is not established in (12).

Simultaneity is guaranteed by premises of Relativity in the first instance. Light speed is constant and invariant. Relative velocity mandates that each clock sees the other clock as in motion with the same velocity of seperation.

Therefore the doppler shift seen in each beam is equal and simultaneous as are the coded SBM signals. You have given absolutely no response as to any specific mathematical or basic physics principal error here. They are indeed synchronized.

(13) is probably correct. It depends on details which have not yet been discussed.

OK but I'm not sure by what you mean "It hasn't been discussed". Did you fall asleep in class. There may be a quiz. :D

(14) is correct, provided the monitor is correctly calibrated to factor out the signalling delays.

You missed the point again. I differentiated my monitor by saying (relavistic monitor). That means in your everyday discussion of what A sees, by SRT, of B's reading when A shuts down.

We can't discuss (15) until the procedure for stopping the clocks is specified.

You might rightfully claim confusion here but it is stated correctly. It is comparing what B would think A should read by SRT (6,840 seconds) when infact B shuts down when his A monitor shows A has stopped which reads 36,000 seconds.

The formula in (16) is as incorrect as it has always been. The formula displayed there is false in all respects, and is not a relativistic formula. The claim that relativity requires a single clock to display two different times at once is a spurious lie which has been corrected many times in this thread.

t2 = t1 (1 - v^2/c^2)^.5

So I failed to type the square root. That was a typo but not equivelent to your "as it always been" comment made to distort the issue as though I am using an incorrect formula to derive the results. You know damn well that is not the case. I have repeatedly presented data consistant with the correct formula and have posted the correct formula.

Your effort to use this as you have chalks up another deliberate attempt by you to distort the truth.

Taking all this hand waving, AD HOC FIAT declarations and deliberate distortions, innuendo and slander into consideration makes your continuing to repeatedly call me a liar an even more horrific conduct by you.

Let me suggest you actually put your money where your mouth is and give a factual, mathematical presentation of any errors in my presentation.

Do so by showing where light does not travel at the same speed in both directions and undergoes the same distortions and is not therefore received by each clock simultaneously. Show it mathematically not by some arbitrary statement that it isn't. You don't because you can't because it is simultaneous and you damn well know it.
 
Last edited:
James R,

Now to respond to your challenge to post replies from "Ask a Physicist" and "Ask a Scientist".

I have sent out three but have only gotten two replies. As I stated they have not answered the question but it is still in the works pending further responses.

The first is from U. Texas - Prof Izen you might recall is also the physicist that confirmed my correct view for the Merry-Go-Round / Pi issues vs members here.

Please note that he did not fully comprehend the question since I had filed only a brief e-mail.

He not only replied with the FIAT declaration of SRT but also referred to B clock as being in a non-inertial frame. Which puts his answer out of the realm of the question.

I then responded with two clarifications to which he has not responded and frankly I doubt that he does but I will post his response should he elect to do so.

http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3300&stc=1
http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3301&stc=1
http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3302&stc=1
http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3303&stc=1

Now U Georgia is a bit more interesting which follows.
 
James R,

Since U Texas had trouble following the short question format I wanted to be more specific and write up the scenario. But I was concerned about the length is a queston format so I read through their archives of Q&A and saw many extended dissertations leading up to a question. So I sent the following to U Georgia.

It is my question, their reply rejecting it as to long and my Thank You designed to goad them into taking the challenge.

http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3304&stc=1
http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3305&stc=1
http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3306&stc=1

To which I received this seperate e-mail entitled "We Will Be in Touch!" ;ending with the " ! " mark.

HeHeHe. I meant to piss them off and I did. Can't wait to see if they answer and what it is.

http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3307&stc=1
 
MacM:

Your latest post is the same old waffle all over again. The crux of the matter is this:

You have shown no such failure of the proceedure. It assumes B's local standard and applies the coded 10/1 ratio to that standard. It hence upon transmitting 100,000 pulses to A's monitor counter displays 1 second of accumulated time.

...as measured by B's clock. Which need have no relationship to A's tick rate.

Like I said.

For your view to be valid there would have to be no synchronization between the clocks.

Bingo! You've got it (I don't think).

Now, do you have anything new to add, or are you just going to keep repeating your incorrect assertion?

There's really no simpler way I can explain your failing to you.

In order to determine a clock's tick rate, it is necessary to observe that tick rate and measure the rate against a local clock. Your procedure completely fails to do that. What you do is simply set B's clock to some number at random, and pretend that your number is A's tick rate as compared with B's clock. Why, in your wildest dreams, you would think that, is beyond me.

Ignore clocks in motion. Ignore relativity. Suppose I have two clocks. Suppose clock A is broken, so that it is ticking at 100 ticks per second. A transmits what it thinks is a 1 MHz signal to clock B, sitting on the bench beside A. In other words, the signal A transmits has 1 million waves per tick of A's clock. Since A is running at 100 ticks per second, the actual frequency of A's wave is 100 MHz, but A thinks it is 1 MHz, because A measures this using his own incorrect clock.

A uses your method to encode the number "10" on his wave. His side-band modulation is at 10 MHz actual frequency, but he thinks it is at 0.1 MHz.

Now, B, sitting on the bench next to A, is assumed to have local clock running at the correct rate of 1 tick per second, as measured by B. B receives A's signal and says "Aha! A has sent a signal at 100 MHz, modulated at 10 MHz. According to MacM's procedure, I must now divide 100 by 10 to get 10. Therefore, A has sent the message '10' to me! And I know '10' is MacM's secret signal which means I have to set my monitor of A's clock to 1 tick per second."

B then sets his monitor of A's clock to 1 tick per second, using B's own local clock, of course, as the only available standard for the setting.

B's monitor of A's clock now ticks at 1 tick per second. B's local clock now ticks at 1 tick per second.

According to MacM, B's monitor of A's clock now ticks at the same rate as A's local clock.

Wrong!

Because, as we know, A is actually ticking at 100 ticks per second, but using MacM's synchronisation procedure, B's monitor is only ticking at 1 tick per second.

It is obvious to anybody that B's monitor is in no way synchronised with A's local clock.

This doesn't depend on relativity.
This has nothing to do with relative motion.
This has everything to do with the fact that MacM has invented a stupid, non-working "synchronisation" procedure.

Now, take a slightly different situation. Assume that, when A and B are both at rest, they do, in fact, run at exactly the same rate of 1 tick per second. (This is the original scenario.) Now, this next part will be very difficult for you, MacM, since you have problems dealing with new information and alternative scenarios. You will argue and whinge about how what I am about to say can't be true, but it will be an argument based on nothing but MacM's gut feeling that he just doesn't like it and can't imagine such a thing. Anyway...

Just suppose that, for some unknown reason, even though A and B are synchronised at rest, they in fact run at different rates once B is moving relative to A. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that A in fact runs 100 times faster than B when the clocks are in motion.

Does your method now produce a correct synchronisation? Does B's monitor display A's true local time? Of course not. Why? For exactly the same reasons as I have explained above, where clock A is running at the wrong rate because it is faulty.

Whichever way you look at it, your method of setting up the monitors is hopelessly flawed.

Now, anything new to add?

Cue MacM (in whingy whiney voice):

"But my method uses relativity, and it shows that relativity is wrong."
"But clock A isn't broken, so clock B's monitor is synchronised."
"But I don't like it if my method is wrong, so it must be right."
"You haven't shown my method is wrong. I'm going to repeat my false claims again, and pretend I haven't read any of your posts."
"But relativity is wrong, so everything I say is right automatically."
"I can't understand your simple argument, so I will ignore it and assume I am right."
blah blah blah
 
PS It doesn't surprise me one bit that all the responses you have received from legitimate university sites support relativity.

You have been very careful not to put my objection to them to see what they think of that, haven't you? I know you're afraid of what the response to that would be.

Instead, you take these people back to square one, and they have to work it all out from scratch. Give it time and soon you'll be stringing along 100 people at once with the same MacM denial of reality.

It doesn't matter how many people you ask. Nothing will ever change your mind or wake you up from your comfortable dream of your own infallibility.
 
James R said:
MacM:

Your latest post is the same old waffle all over again. The crux of the matter is this:

And your responses are the same old hand waving arguements which deliberately fail to address basic physics and to tell us which basic physics principle is invalid.

...as measured by B's clock. Which need have no relationship to A's tick rate.

Of course it does unless you can provide evidence to the contrary and by doing so not violate basic physics.

Bingo! You've got it (I don't think).

I suspected you might do just this. I will point out that you have choosen to drop the proviso that to claim a lack of simultanenity you must declare that the speed of light is not finite and invariant and/or that relative motion requires reciprocity in relavistic functions.

I notice you choose to not address that issue.

Now, do you have anything new to add, or are you just going to keep repeating your incorrect assertion?

There's really no simpler way I can explain your failing to you.

Until you provide more than AD HOC FIAT declarations, certainly I will contiue to assert you are wrong. It is not I that have a failing. I presented my case mathematically. Lets see you do the same. You can post your SRT formulas if you choose but for them to have any meaning what-so-ever you must also explain just which basic physics principles (and even basic premises of Relativity you are declaring invalid.

As yet you have not advanced even one basic physics principle or mathematical error in my presentation. That speaks much louder than your shouting SRT is right you are wrong. Prove it.

In order to determine a clock's tick rate, it is necessary to observe that tick rate and measure the rate against a local clock. Your procedure completely fails to do that. What you do is simply set B's clock to some number at random, and pretend that your number is A's tick rate as compared with B's clock. Why, in your wildest dreams, you would think that, is beyond me.

Simple because it follows from basic physics principles and is mathematically correct. To claim otherwise you must discard Relativity's postulates of light and of reciprocity of motion.

Ignore clocks in motion. Ignore relativity. Suppose I have two clocks. Suppose clock A is broken, so that it is ticking at 100 ticks per second. A transmits what it thinks is a 1 MHz signal to clock B, sitting on the bench beside A. In other words, the signal A transmits has 1 million waves per tick of A's clock. Since A is running at 100 ticks per second, the actual frequency of A's wave is 100 MHz, but A thinks it is 1 MHz, because A measures this using his own incorrect clock.

A uses your method to encode the number "10" on his wave. His side-band modulation is at 10 MHz actual frequency, but he thinks it is at 0.1 MHz.

Now, B, sitting on the bench next to A, is assumed to have local clock running at the correct rate of 1 tick per second, as measured by B. B receives A's signal and says "Aha! A has sent a signal at 100 MHz, modulated at 10 MHz. According to MacM's procedure, I must now divide 100 by 10 to get 10. Therefore, A has sent the message '10' to me! And I know '10' is MacM's secret signal which means I have to set my monitor of A's clock to 1 tick per second."

B then sets his monitor of A's clock to 1 tick per second, using B's own local clock, of course, as the only available standard for the setting.

B's monitor of A's clock now ticks at 1 tick per second. B's local clock now ticks at 1 tick per second.

According to MacM, B's monitor of A's clock now ticks at the same rate as A's local clock.

Wrong!

Because, as we know, A is actually ticking at 100 ticks per second, but using MacM's synchronisation procedure, B's monitor is only ticking at 1 tick per second.

It is obvious to anybody that B's monitor is in no way synchronised with A's local clock.

This doesn't depend on relativity.
This has nothing to do with relative motion.
This has everything to do with the fact that MacM has invented a stupid, non-working "synchronisation" procedure.

Surely, SURELY, you can do better than rehash this ludricrus arguement. You violate the very premis of the test to claim a clock may be broken or not properly calibrated. Those are stipulations of the thought experiment. Your rejection thus far has been a joke.

The only one showing to be stupid here seems to be you. If you can't provide a legitamate response to this issue just say so and stop making up your own versions to discredit.

Now, take a slightly different situation. Assume that, when A and B are both at rest, they do, in fact, run at exactly the same rate of 1 tick per second. (This is the original scenario.) Now, this next part will be very difficult for you, MacM, since you have problems dealing with new information and alternative scenarios. You will argue and whinge about how what I am about to say can't be true, but it will be an argument based on nothing but MacM's gut feeling that he just doesn't like it and can't imagine such a thing. Anyway...

Just suppose that, for some unknown reason, even though A and B are synchronised at rest, they in fact run at different rates once B is moving relative to A. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that A in fact runs 100 times faster than B when the clocks are in motion.

Does your method now produce a correct synchronisation? Does B's monitor display A's true local time? Of course not. Why? For exactly the same reasons as I have explained above, where clock A is running at the wrong rate because it is faulty.

Once again you fail. I have explained this to you several times also. Unless you violate the reciprocity of Relativity any change in clock rates will be mutual. i.e. if A goes to 100 ticks per second, so does B. You are still synchronized.

You are infact trying to introduce Universal Time. I find that funny.

Whichever way you look at it, your method of setting up the monitors is hopelessly flawed.

Now, anything new to add?

Cue MacM (in whingy whiney voice):

"But my method uses relativity, and it shows that relativity is wrong."
"But clock A isn't broken, so clock B's monitor is synchronised."
"But I don't like it if my method is wrong, so it must be right."
"You haven't shown my method is wrong. I'm going to repeat my false claims again, and pretend I haven't read any of your posts."
"But relativity is wrong, so everything I say is right automatically."
"I can't understand your simple argument, so I will ignore it and assume I am right."
blah blah blah

Surprise, surprise, you are wrong once again. All I have to do is point out "Whichever way you look at it you have failed to give specific errors mathematically or in basic physics principles and basic postulates of Relativity, which produce this result.

Conclusion "Relativity is in conflict with it's own premises" and James R is to enept to see it.
 
Last edited:
I believe James post #687038 was elegant in showing that you must assume that the clock rates are equal for the "synchronization" procedure to work. I'm suprised that your denial goes this deep MacM.
 
AndersHermansson said:
I believe James post #687038 was elegant in showing that you must assume that the clock rates are equal for the "synchronization" procedure to work. I'm suprised that your denial goes this deep MacM.

Just as I am surprised that you can not provide any basis for that claim. Relativty holds that either party can be considered at rest. A clock at rest does not change. It is the observers VIEW of that clock that changes.

If I am wrong simple show it in real basic physics or even basic postulates of Relativity that say otherwise. If you can't you cannot by AD HOC FIAT declaration claim any cause for change when changes violates other conditions of relative motion by Relativity itself..
 
James R said:
PS It doesn't surprise me one bit that all the responses you have received from legitimate university sites support relativity.

And I'm not surprised that they, as you, choose to not address the issue but simply make AD HOC FIAT declarations of SRT.

You have been very careful not to put my objection to them to see what they think of that, haven't you? I know you're afraid of what the response to that would be.

They don't need prompting. That need to address, as do you, the actual issue in a mathematical or clear manner where there is any error.

Instead, you take these people back to square one, and they have to work it all out from scratch. Give it time and soon you'll be stringing along 100 people at once with the same MacM denial of reality.

Funnny. Here I thought I was teaching you reality.

It doesn't matter how many people you ask. Nothing will ever change your mind or wake you up from your comfortable dream of your own infallibility.

I can understand your frustration. To be so sure of yourself but cannot prove your are right or even that I am wrong. That must gall your ass. Just admit that you cannot point to any error mathematically or an invalid position in the presentation from a basic physics or even basic Relativity view.

Admit for a change that SRT is in conflict with reciprocity dictated by Relativity itself. You'll feel so much better when you stop lying to yourself.
 
Paul T said:

I'll note that this response is not overly difficult to overcome after close inspection of the objections being posed by the Relativists. None have given explicit objections regarding specific error in basic physics, mathematics, or postulates of Relativity.

They have only given opinions which show they favor SRT which actually violate basic postulates of Relativity, which does seem to be blind faith and is not supported science or physics.
 
I would like to suggest a mediated solution to this impasse.

If a thread is started again with the sequential steps proposed by MacM posted at the start. that I or some one nominated my MacM only allowed to post, and that the SR camp do likewise.

The rules of engagement are that clear and concise arguement be entered and kept as permanent record with out any reference to anything other that the published steps. There will be no posting by the author of the steps or any one not nominated to post of whch there are only two.
All correspondence other than that which is posted by the nomominees will happen off forum, or behind the scenes.
All cross referencing must be evidenced and clear.

Possibly JamesR might see another better way of mediating a result that is acceptable.........I personally think that this thread is well and truely so confused now that it is unsalvagable.

I think it would be interesting to do if not just for the organisation of it, but mainly it would be good to see a resolution that is irrefutable to either side of the debate.

any one interested in doing this?
 
Quantum Quack said:
I would like to suggest a mediated solution to this impasse.

If a thread is started again with the sequential steps proposed by MacM posted at the start. that I or some one nominated my MacM only allowed to post, and that the SR camp do likewise.

The rules of engagement are that clear and concise arguement be entered and kept as permanent record with out any reference to anything other that the published steps. There will be no posting by the author of the steps or any one not nominated to post of whch there are only two.
All correspondence other than that which is posted by the nomominees will happen off forum, or behind the scenes.
All cross referencing must be evidenced and clear.

Possibly JamesR might see another better way of mediating a result that is acceptable.........I personally think that this thread is well and truely so confused now that it is unsalvagable.

I think it would be interesting to do if not just for the organisation of it, but mainly it would be good to see a resolution that is irrefutable to either side of the debate.

any one interested in doing this?

That certainly would cut down on the clutter. I would be game but I suspect there is no interest on their part in that none have actually provided supported argeuemtns against synchronizaton or failure of SRT to show time dilation when taken step by step using valid basic physics and postulates of Relativity.

However, I am also confortable holding my own against these obtuse assualts. they do not realise that they are making my case for me by not addressing the issue actually at hand.

Further my next post to James is the response from U Texas. I think it is a must read for all.

Thanks for your thoughts about reconciling this issue.
 
rule 2 could be if any camp breaks the rules the other camp wins.
Would be interesting to see if self restraint will work....ha
 
Quantum Quack said:
rule 2 could be if any camp breaks the rules the other camp wins.
Would be interesting to see if self restraint will work....ha

Now I like that approach. Does sort of seem like the format for the Presidential debates this evening. :D

It remains to be seen if further debate will ensue after my next post showing U Texas's qualified answer to my clarification.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top