Trinity

[surenderer]

Salaam,
I have many friendly discussions with my Christian friends about God religion etc...but one constant that they are steadfast about and which I refute is the concept of the trinity.My friends seem to believe in "blind faith" yet when i approach them with questions about their faith they seem to be lost. I dont approach them with "well the Koran says this or that" but i use their own book (bible) to phrase my questions....maybe some of my Christian friends here can help me out with these 34 questions :

TRINITY
According to most Christians, Jesus was God-incarnate, full man and full God. Can the finite and the infinite be one? "To be full" God means freedom from finite forms and from helplessness, and to be "full man" means the absence of divinity.

1.To be son is to be less than divine and to be divine is to be no one’s son. How could Jesus have the attributes of sonship and divinity altogether?

2.Christians assert that Jesus claimed to be God when they quote him in John 14:9: "He that has seen me has seen the Father". Didn’t Jesus clearly say that people have never seen God, as it says in John 5:37: "And the father himself which Has sent me, has borne witness of me. You have NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE"?

3.Christians say that Jesus was God because he was called Son of God, Son of Man, Messiah, and "savior". Ezekiel was addressed in the Bible as Son of Man. Jesus spoke of "the peace makers" as Sons of God. Any person who followed the Will and Plan of God was called SON OF GOD in the Jewish tradition and in their language (Genesis 6:2,4; Exodus 4:22; Psalm 2:7; Romans 8:14). "Messiah" which in Hebrew means "God’s anointed" and not "Christ", and "Cyrus" the person is called "Messiah" or "the anointed". As for "savior", in II KINGS 13:5, other individuals were given that title too without being gods. So where is the proof in these terms that Jesus was God when the word son is not exclusively used for him alone?

4.Christians claim that Jesus acknowledged that he and God were one in the sense of nature when he says in John 10:30 "I and my father are one". Later on in John 17:21-23, Jesus refers to his followers and himself and God as one in five places. So why did they give the previous "one" a different meaning from the other five "ones?

5.Is God three-in-one and one in three simultaneously or one at a time?

6.If God is one and three simultaneously, then none of the three could be the complete God. Granting that such was the case, then when Jesus was on earth, he wasn’t a complete God, nor was the "father in Heaven" a whole God. Doesn’t that contradict what Jesus always said about His God and our God in heaven, his Lord and our Lord ? Does that also mean that there was no complete god then, between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrection?

7.If God is one and three at a time, then who was the God in heaven when Jesus was on earth? Wouldn’t this contradict his many references to a God in Heaven that sent him?

8.If God is three and one at the same time, who was the God in Heaven within three days between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrect ion?

9.Christians say that: "The Father(F) is God, the Son(S) is God, and the Holy Ghost(H) is God, but the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is not the Father". In simple arithmetic and terms therefore, if F = G, S = G, and H = G, then it follows that F = S = H, while the second part of the statement suggests that F ¹ S ¹ H (meaning, "not equal"). Isn’t that a contradiction to the Christian dogma of Trinity in itself ?

10.If Jesus was God, why did he tell the man who called him "good master" not to call him "good" because accordingly, there is none good but his God in Heaven alone?

11.Why do Christians say that God is three-in-one and one in three when Jesus says in Mark 12:29: "The Lord our God is one Lord" in as many places as yet in the Bible?

12.If belief in the Trinity was such a necessary condition for being a Christian, why didn’t Jesus teach and emphasize it to the Christians during his time? How were those followers of Jesus considered Christians without ever hearing the term Trinity? Had the Trinity been the spinal cord of Christianity, Jesus would have emphasized it on many occasions and would have taught and explained it in detail to the people.

13.Christians claim that Jesus was God as they quote in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". This is John speaking and not Jesus. Also, the Greek word for the first occurrence of God is HOTHEOS which means "the God" or "God" with a capital "G", while the Greek word for its second occurrence is "TONTHEOS", which means "a god " or "god" with a small "g". Isn’t this dishonesty and inconsistency on the part of those translating the Greek Bible? ? Isn’t such quotation in John 1:1 recognized by every Christian scholar of the Bible to have been written by a Jew named Philo Alexandria way before Jesus and John?

14.Wasn’t the word "god" or "TONTHEOS" also used to refer to others as well as in II Corinthians 4:4 "(and the Devil is) the god of this world" and in Exodus 7:1 "See , I have made thee (Moses) a god to Pharaoh"?


SALVATION:
Christians say that "GOD LOST His only son to save us". To whom did God lose Jesus if he owns the whole universe?

15. If it was agreeable with God’s Majesty to have sons, He could have created a million sons the like of Jesus. So what is the big clear deal about this only son?

16.Why does the Bible say that Jesus wanted to die on the cross, when the one on the cross was shouting "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" according to Matthew 27:45 and Mark 15:33?

17. If God had wanted to save us, couldn’t He have done that without sacrificing Jesus?

18. God is Just, and justice requires that nobody should be punished for the sins of others, nor should some people be saved by punishing other people. Doesn’t the claim that God sacrificed Jesus to save us because He was Just, contradict the definition of justice?

19. People sacrifice things they have to get something they don’t have when they can’t have both. Christians say that "God SACRIFICED His only son to save us". We know that God is Almighty; to whom did He sacrifice Jesus?

20. A real sacrifice is when you can’t get back what you have offered , so what would be the big deal about such a sacrifice if God could recover the same offering? (according to the Christians’ terminology)?

21. If all the Christians are saved through Jesus and are going to Heaven no matter what they do, then the teachings of Jesus are irrelevant and the definition of good and bad are also rendered irrelevant. If this is not so, then do Christians who believe in Jesus yet do not follow his teachings nor repent go to Hell?

22. How can Christians take deeds as irrelevant after becoming one when Jesus says in Matthew 12:36; "But I say unto you that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the Day of Judgment. For by the words thou shalt be justified, and by the words thou shalt be condemned"?

23. Christians say that people go to Heaven ONLY THROUGH JESUS, yet Paul says in 1 CORINTHIANS 7:8-16 that the unbelieving husband is acceptable to God because he is united with his wife and vice versa, and their pagan children are also acceptable to God. So people can go to heaven without believing in Jesus according to this.

24. How come the Bible says that ALL Israel is saved although they don’t believe in Jesus? Doesn’t that contradict the claim in the Bible that the only way to heaven is through Jesus?

25. According to Christians, those who have not been baptized will go to Hell. So even the infants and babies go to Hell if not baptized, since they are born with an inherited original sin. Doesn’t this contradict the definition of justice? Why would God punish people for sins they never committed?


HOLY SPIRIT:
The only place in the Bible where the Paraclete was called the Holy Spirit is in John 14:26 "But the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you". What has the Holy Spirit brought or taught for the last 2000 years?

26.Christians say that the Paraclete means the Holy Spirit (John 14;26). Jesus said in John 16:7-8 "If I do not go away the Paraclete will not come to you". This could not mean the Holy spirit, since the Holy spirit was said to have been there before Jesus was even born as in Luke 1:41 "Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit". Here, the Holy spirit was also present during Jesus life time. So how could this fit with the condition that Jesus must go away so that the Holy spirit will come?

27.In John 16:7-8, it says: "But if go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world of sins and of righteousness and of Judgment". What do "he" and "him" refer here? Don’t they refer to a man?

28.Does the Holy Spirit talk to good Christians and bad Christians as well? Is the Holy spirit with them all the time or just at certain times? When does it start visiting a person who wants to become a Christian?

29.How can you as a Christian tell if the Holy Spirit is inside another Christian? How come many Christians fooled people by claiming that the Holy spirit was inside them only to be converted to another religion later on ?

30.Does the Holy Spirit dictate what Christians should do without choice or freedom at all or does it only guide them and they have the freedom to follow or not ?

31.If the Holy Spirit dictates what Christian should do, why do Christians commit sins and make mistakes ? How can you explain the conversion to other religions and atheism of many Christians? Are they told to do that by the Holy Spirit?

32.If the Holy Spirit guides Christians only, and they are free to do what they want, then how do we know that the writers of the Gospels didn’t make mistakes in writing them?

33.If Christians believe that the Holy Spirit comes and talks to them everyday, why don’t they ask the Holy Spirit about which version of the Bible to follow since there are too many versions floating around?


MISSION OF JESUS:
Without borrowing from other religions and systems, can Christianity provide people with a complete way of life? Since Christianity is limited to spiritual life and does not provide law, how can a society decide which laws are right or wrong?

34.Why do the Christians say that Jesus came with a universal mission when he said that he was sent to the Jews only? He said to the Canaanite woman who asked him to heal her daughter from demon-possession: "I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel" and also said: "It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs", Matthew 15:21-28.




Peace to You

 

[Cris]

Looks like a Muslim anti-Christian thread. Not sure that anyone cares.

 

[surenderer]

Looks like a Muslim anti-Christian thread. Not sure that anyone cares.

Not at all anti-christian.... Have i used the Koran as right and the Bible as wrong? As i have said these are questions i am seriously curious about however the silence does speak volumes

 

[path]

Surrenderer you are being disingenuous here not to mention plagerizing abit. Don't muslims get bent outta shape and shout "anti-islamic" or "muslim hate site" when people post things about islam taken from christian sites.

http://www.muslimtents.com/gloriousislam/english.htm

 

[surenderer]

Surrenderer you are being disingenuous here not to mention plagerizing abit. Don't muslims get bent outta shape and shout "anti-islamic" or "muslim hate site" when people post things about islam taken from christian sites.

http://www.muslimtents.com/gloriousislam/english.htm

Dang why is this turning into bashing me?? I never said i thought the questions up....they only sparked my curiosity which made me pose these questions to my friends.(the whole reason i didnt post the website is because i didnt want to be seen as promoting Islam over Christianity)As anyone who have seen or responded to my past posts knows I have never disrespected Christianity because it would be anti-islamic to do so(despite popular beliefs) I only get upset when people take the Koran and misquote or lie about what it says but when people have genuine questions about Koranic sayings or quotes that never upsets me....Obviously thats not mutal though

 

[StarOfEight]

Being that I don't particularly care whether one worships Santa or Sinbad, I don't claim to be any authority, but the best known metaphor in Christianity for the concept of the Trinity is the three leaf clover ... in other words, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost represent three different aspects of the same being. Dunno if that answers your question, since I kinda lost interest once they brought out logical notation, but hope that helps a little.

Although, I'll point out, some of "your" questions are nothing more than recycled theodicies, interspersed with straw men ... for example, if the Holy Spirit's inability to prevent evil on the part of Christians somehow invalidates the trinity, then it stands to reason to that the Middle East disproves Allah day after day after day.

 

[Jenyar]

I looked up one of your problems just for interest's sake:

13.Christians claim that Jesus was God as they quote in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". This is John speaking and not Jesus. Also, the Greek word for the first occurrence of God is HOTHEOS which means "the God" or "God" with a capital "G", while the Greek word for its second occurrence is "TONTHEOS", which means "a god " or "god" with a small "g". Isn’t this dishonesty and inconsistency on the part of those translating the Greek Bible? ? Isn’t such quotation in John 1:1 recognized by every Christian scholar of the Bible to have been written by a Jew named Philo Alexandria way before Jesus and John?

For starters, Philo's "Logos" never comes close to being God incarnate - John uses a word that was relevant and understood, and gave it meaning in a Christian context. At any rate, Philo did not write this. Ever.

The Greek John 1:1-2 reads:

En arche en ho logos, "In the beginning was the Word,"
kai ho logos en pros ton theon, "and the Word was with God,"
kai theos en ho logos. "and the Word was God."
Hou tos en en arche pros ton theon. "He was in the beginning with God"​

I see the tell-tale signature of the infamous Ahmed Deedat here: he uses the impossible Greek construction 'ton theos' (instead of 'ton theon'), which is the first occurrence, not the second. That's just the accusative form of 'ho theos', and from the context it's clear to which "God" it refers to. In another context, like 2 Cor 4:4, it might refer to a false god "the god [ton theon] of this world", or "against God" as in Rev. 13:6 "blasphemies ton theon".

See the argument handled by someone more knowledgeable in Koine Greek than me: The Word was God

And that's ignoring John 1:18, "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God [some translations "Son"] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." Just in case someone thought John meant something else.

The other arguments are just as weak, and have already been answered on the web numerous times. If there's any one of them you'd like to discuss particularly, feel free. But simply posting long lists like that is very unproductive.

 

[surenderer]

I looked up one of your problems just for interest's sake:

For starters, Philo's "Logos" never comes close to being God incarnate - John uses a word that was relevant and understood, and gave it meaning in a Christian context. At any rate, Philo did not write this. Ever.

The Greek John 1:1-2 reads:

En arche en ho logos, "In the beginning was the Word,"
kai ho logos en pros ton theon, "and the Word was with God,"
kai theos en ho logos. "and the Word was God."
Hou tos en en arche pros ton theon. "He was in the beginning with God"​

I see the tell-tale signature of the infamous Ahmed Deedat here: he uses the impossible Greek construction 'ton theos' (instead of 'ton theon'), which is the first occurrence, not the second. That's just the accusative form of 'ho theos', and from the context it's clear to which "God" it refers to. In another context, like 2 Cor 4:4, it might refer to a false god "the god [ton theon] of this world", or "against God" as in Rev. 13:6 "blasphemies ton theon".

See the argument handled by someone more knowledgeable in Koine Greek than me: The Word was God

And that's ignoring John 1:18, "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God [some translations "Son"] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." Just in case someone thought John meant something else.

The other arguments are just as weak, and have already been answered on the web numerous times. If there's any one of them you'd like to discuss particularly, feel free. But simply posting long lists like that is very unproductive.

Fair enough thank you for your answer as I said before my post was to get answers to questions not to flame anyone or any religion in particular.....but then let me ask you this....are you saying that Philo's didnt inspire or that the authors on the New testement didnt forgerize(sp?) some of his EARLIER works?

 

[surenderer]

For starters, Philo's "Logos" never comes close to being God incarnate - John uses a word that was relevant and understood, and gave it meaning in a Christian context. At any rate, Philo did not write this. Ever.

Oh I forgot to tell you that you are very incorrect my friend:



http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/sources.html#philo

 

[gentle]

Not at all anti-christian.... Have i used the Koran as right and the Bible as wrong? As i have said these are questions i am seriously curious about however the silence does speak volumes

I just arrived.Thank God too! You have many questions and few answers, although your questions are good ones and together they are attempting to paint a picture of Christian believe's that don't corrolate with Jesus teachings. You are a good debater. Tonight I only have time for an overview.
Christ came when he did because gentiles like me were ready to accept him. He turned the exodus of the old testiment ( A physical walk in the physical wilderness to a physical promised land ( Israel ) into a spiritual walk in the spiritual wilderness to the spiritual promised land Heaven. The signs of the trinity are everywhere. Water- for life solid(ice) water(liquid), gas( humidity). And in a vacuum at thirty two degrees (f) it can be all three at once. If water can do it why not the creater of water. I do not believe his powers are limited do you?
One Universe three dimensions- another sign of the trinity of God.
You yourself can only be three intimate things. A son, by comming through your mothers womb. A husband by consumating a marrige. And a father by your sperm producing a child. You yourself can be three in one! a father, son and husband! and you are just you. All matter comes in solid, liquid and gas. And in the future- All subatomic mass has three phases Plasma, condensation, and evaporation. these three states of matter explain all of creation but now i am a few years ahead of myself. You see God has shown all of us in his creations his image as the Father Son and Holy Spirit. He is One God and his own family as you and I are also family. Love is the Key to all our hearts. One family to go from one generation need how many? That's right three! Mother, father and child. God does not have limits to his love and patients for you and me and over time I will address each one of your misconceptions if you want one at a time and i will show you the true nature of the loving God whom you call Allah! But who loves both of us as brothers.

 

[-=T=-]

The Trinity is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible, and didn't gain acceptence until at least the Nicene creed.

And even then, in its original from, the Nicene Creed did not contain the three words "and the Son" (the Filioque Clause), they were added later by the Western Church. This interpolation was affirmed at the western council in Toledo in 589. The Eastern Churches had never accepted that interpolation. See The Great Schism

The Christians have Athanasius (primarily) to thank for rejecting Arius and Arianism*, and pushing for the Trinity doctrine.

See all the neat things that can happen when men proclaim themselves worthy enough to interpret the bible?

The early church screwed up big time by printing bibles and making them available to the laity. If they had kept the bible available only to the church and priests, they could have continued to shape Christianity to their political purposes by adding creeds and doctrines at their whim (Yeah, I know the Pope can still do this, but that's only one denomination out of the 20,800 Christian sects).

Spin doctors? You bet. Modern day politicians and the media are pikers compared to those guys.


*The fundamental premise of Arius was the uniqueness of God, who is alone self-existent and immutable. The Son, who is not self-existent, cannot be God.

 

[-=T=-]

"The Chalcedonian formula [the council's decision declaring Jesus both God and man] makes genuine humanity impossible. The councilor definition says that Jesus is true man. But if there are two natures in him, it is clear which will dominate. And Jesus becomes immediately very different from us. He is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. He knows the past, present and future...He knows exactly what everyone is thinking and going to do. This is far from ordinary human experience. Jesus is tempted but cannot sin because he is God. What kind of temptation is this? It has little in common with the kinds of struggles we are familiar with."
~To Know and Follow Jesus, Roman Catholic writer Thomas Hart (Paulist Press, 1984), 46.

 

[surenderer]

I just arrived.Thank God too! You have many questions and few answers, although your questions are good ones and together they are attempting to paint a picture of Christian believe's that don't corrolate with Jesus teachings. You are a good debater. Tonight I only have time for an overview.
Christ came when he did because gentiles like me were ready to accept him. He turned the exodus of the old testiment ( A physical walk in the physical wilderness to a physical promised land ( Israel ) into a spiritual walk in the spiritual wilderness to the spiritual promised land Heaven. The signs of the trinity are everywhere. Water- for life solid(ice) water(liquid), gas( humidity). And in a vacuum at thirty two degrees (f) it can be all three at once. If water can do it why not the creater of water. I do not believe his powers are limited do you?
One Universe three dimensions- another sign of the trinity of God.
You yourself can only be three intimate things. A son, by comming through your mothers womb. A husband by consumating a marrige. And a father by your sperm producing a child. You yourself can be three in one! a father, son and husband! and you are just you. All matter comes in solid, liquid and gas. And in the future- All subatomic mass has three phases Plasma, condensation, and evaporation. these three states of matter explain all of creation but now i am a few years ahead of myself. You see God has shown all of us in his creations his image as the Father Son and Holy Spirit. He is One God and his own family as you and I are also family. Love is the Key to all our hearts. One family to go from one generation need how many? That's right three! Mother, father and child. God does not have limits to his love and patients for you and me and over time I will address each one of your misconceptions if you want one at a time and i will show you the true nature of the loving God whom you call Allah! But who loves both of us as brothers.

Thank you for your reply I admit that your analogy about being a father son and husband is very well said however didnt Jesus(pbuh) say himself that "he wasnt good only his father was"? doesnt that show a difference between the two?(or in this case three) How come Jesus never preached about a trinity? Also how come so much of Jesus's life is missing from the Bible? As a muslim i actually have no problem with a Christian being "Christ-like" because we are taught that God's Prophets are sent here to show us how to live our lives but when so much of it is missing dont you wonder why?...peace

 

[okinrus]

T, I have no clue what your speaking of. The printing press wasn't invented until gutenburg.

If they had kept the bible available only to the church and priests, they could have continued to shape Christianity to their political purposes by adding creeds and doctrines at their whim (Yeah, I know the Pope can still do this, but that's only one denomination out of the 20,800 Christian sects).

The Pope is regulated by the restrictions under canon law. He simply cannot just proclaim doctrines at whim; there must at least be prior basis for them in the deposit of faith.

But if there are two natures in him, it is clear which will dominate.

Do you have any other examples of beings with more than one nature?

And Jesus becomes immediately very different from us.

Yes, he's different but not in his human nature.

Jesus is tempted but cannot sin because he is God. What kind of temptation is this? It has little in common with the kinds of struggles we are familiar with."

Given any action that humans can do, God could also do, for God is omnipotent. But sin, being against God's nature, means God will not sin.

 

[Jenyar]

Surrenderer,

Philo was a Jew, and used the Old Testament as basis for his philosophies. Same as Christians. Why shouldn't they show similarities? Isn't it possible that Philo, like other Jews - like Paul and John under Jesus' influence - began to grasp some of the spiritual significance and meaning of the Hebrew Bible? Plagiarism is passing off another's writing as your own - if you can show from any of Philo's surviving writings that he used the same words as John.

However:

"Central to his teaching on God's relationship to the world is his doctrine of the Logos. The term itself occurs repeatedly in his works but is never defined. In Who is Heir of Things Divine?, chapter 42 (§ 206) the Logos says of itself: 'I stand between the Lord and you; I am neither uncreated like God nor created like you, but midway between the two extremes, a hostage on both sides.' It is a matter of debate whether Philo considered the Logos as a reality, as a distinct identity having real existence, or as no more than an abstraction."​

 

[Jenyar]

The Trinity is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible, and didn't gain acceptence until at least the Nicene creed.

Do you believe that the Trinity was invented during the Nicene creed, or rejected until then? How could the Nicene Council enforce something if it was rejected by everyone? Please substantiate.

 

[everneo]

I just arrived.Thank God too! You have many questions and few answers, although your questions are good ones and together they are attempting to paint a picture of Christian believe's that don't corrolate with Jesus teachings. You are a good debater. Tonight I only have time for an overview.
Christ came when he did because gentiles like me were ready to accept him. He turned the exodus of the old testiment ( A physical walk in the physical wilderness to a physical promised land ( Israel ) into a spiritual walk in the spiritual wilderness to the spiritual promised land Heaven. The signs of the trinity are everywhere. Water- for life solid(ice) water(liquid), gas( humidity). And in a vacuum at thirty two degrees (f) it can be all three at once. If water can do it why not the creater of water. I do not believe his powers are limited do you?
One Universe three dimensions- another sign of the trinity of God.
You yourself can only be three intimate things. A son, by comming through your mothers womb. A husband by consumating a marrige. And a father by your sperm producing a child. You yourself can be three in one! a father, son and husband! and you are just you. All matter comes in solid, liquid and gas. And in the future- All subatomic mass has three phases Plasma, condensation, and evaporation. these three states of matter explain all of creation but now i am a few years ahead of myself. You see God has shown all of us in his creations his image as the Father Son and Holy Spirit. He is One God and his own family as you and I are also family. Love is the Key to all our hearts. One family to go from one generation need how many? That's right three! Mother, father and child. God does not have limits to his love and patients for you and me and over time I will address each one of your misconceptions if you want one at a time and i will show you the true nature of the loving God whom you call Allah! But who loves both of us as brothers.

What you are saying is trinity is 3 different aspects of one God. Fair enough. But church authorities maintain that trinity is 3 different persons, each one is God but there is one God !

 

[Cyperium]

Hi, surenderer. I'm a Christian and I'm going to answer the best way I can, but it's many, many questions, so if I skip a few I hope it doesn't matter too much (I'm sure there are other christians that can answer too).

Also, because this has so many questions, there might be errors, so if you see something that could be a error, I would like you to point it out so that we can discuss it seperatly.

Salaam,
I have many friendly discussions with my Christian friends about God religion etc...but one constant that they are steadfast about and which I refute is the concept of the trinity.My friends seem to believe in "blind faith" yet when i approach them with questions about their faith they seem to be lost. I dont approach them with "well the Koran says this or that" but i use their own book (bible) to phrase my questions....maybe some of my Christian friends here can help me out with these 34 questions :

TRINITY
According to most Christians, Jesus was God-incarnate, full man and full God. Can the finite and the infinite be one? "To be full" God means freedom from finite forms and from helplessness, and to be "full man" means the absence of divinity.

Jesus tells us that no one is good but God, not even Jesus at the time He said it. This could be because He was not yet freed from His physical body. Jesus was made like a sinner on earth, so that we could be saved by Him.

1.To be son is to be less than divine and to be divine is to be no one’s son. How could Jesus have the attributes of sonship and divinity altogether?

Is to be son, less divine? Where did you get this?

2.Christians assert that Jesus claimed to be God when they quote him in John 14:9: "He that has seen me has seen the Father". Didn’t Jesus clearly say that people have never seen God, as it says in John 5:37: "And the father himself which Has sent me, has borne witness of me. You have NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE"?

You haven't heard His voice or seen His shape have you? Though he that has seen the Son have seen the Father.

3.Christians say that Jesus was God because he was called Son of God, Son of Man, Messiah, and "savior". Ezekiel was addressed in the Bible as Son of Man. Jesus spoke of "the peace makers" as Sons of God. Any person who followed the Will and Plan of God was called SON OF GOD in the Jewish tradition and in their language (Genesis 6:2,4; Exodus 4:22; Psalm 2:7; Romans 8:14). "Messiah" which in Hebrew means "God’s anointed" and not "Christ", and "Cyrus" the person is called "Messiah" or "the anointed". As for "savior", in II KINGS 13:5, other individuals were given that title too without being gods. So where is the proof in these terms that Jesus was God when the word son is not exclusively used for him alone?

Galatians 3:26-29

26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

4.Christians claim that Jesus acknowledged that he and God were one in the sense of nature when he says in John 10:30 "I and my father are one". Later on in John 17:21-23, Jesus refers to his followers and himself and God as one in five places. So why did they give the previous "one" a different meaning from the other five "ones?

We become one in Christ. See the above passage also, on the sons of God.

5.Is God three-in-one and one in three simultaneously or one at a time?

I don't know, it's beyond me. Jesus say that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him.

6.If God is one and three simultaneously, then none of the three could be the complete God. Granting that such was the case, then when Jesus was on earth, he wasn’t a complete God, nor was the "father in Heaven" a whole God. Doesn’t that contradict what Jesus always said about His God and our God in heaven, his Lord and our Lord ? Does that also mean that there was no complete god then, between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrection?

As I said before this is beyond me, but Jesus did say that He didn't do His own will, but the will of the Father.

This is also clearly seen in the last period in His life, when He asked God if there were another way, but do not my will but yours.

7.If God is one and three at a time, then who was the God in heaven when Jesus was on earth? Wouldn’t this contradict his many references to a God in Heaven that sent him?

No, Jesus might in many ways have felt God, it's also unclear that heaven must mean the sky. God is beyond time and space, God is within Jesus, and Jesus within God.

Isaiah 55:8-9

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD .
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

8.If God is three and one at the same time, who was the God in Heaven within three days between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrect ion?

Jesus said that He would go to the Father (didn't He?). He also said that where I'm going you can't follow. This might suggest that He was at God in these three days.

Also He said that He would rebuild the temple in three days (where the temple meant his body), so maybe He was rebuilding His body?

Too much speculations though...I really don't know where He was during these three days, but I guess that He was with the Father.

9.Christians say that: "The Father(F) is God, the Son(S) is God, and the Holy Ghost(H) is God, but the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is not the Father". In simple arithmetic and terms therefore, if F = G, S = G, and H = G, then it follows that F = S = H, while the second part of the statement suggests that F ¹ S ¹ H (meaning, "not equal"). Isn’t that a contradiction to the Christian dogma of Trinity in itself ?

It's far beyond me to answer.

10.If Jesus was God, why did he tell the man who called him "good master" not to call him "good" because accordingly, there is none good but his God in Heaven alone?

Because Jesus was still in the flesh, and as such still a sinner.

11.Why do Christians say that God is three-in-one and one in three when Jesus says in Mark 12:29: "The Lord our God is one Lord" in as many places as yet in the Bible?

There are only one God. God is a trinity in itself.

12.If belief in the Trinity was such a necessary condition for being a Christian, why didn’t Jesus teach and emphasize it to the Christians during his time? How were those followers of Jesus considered Christians without ever hearing the term Trinity? Had the Trinity been the spinal cord of Christianity, Jesus would have emphasized it on many occasions and would have taught and explained it in detail to the people.

The spinal cord of Christianity is that Jesus died for our sins and that we can be saved through Him. Why the trinity isn't explained that much in the Bible I have no answer for.

13.Christians claim that Jesus was God as they quote in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". This is John speaking and not Jesus. Also, the Greek word for the first occurrence of God is HOTHEOS which means "the God" or "God" with a capital "G", while the Greek word for its second occurrence is "TONTHEOS", which means "a god " or "god" with a small "g". Isn’t this dishonesty and inconsistency on the part of those translating the Greek Bible? ? Isn’t such quotation in John 1:1 recognized by every Christian scholar of the Bible to have been written by a Jew named Philo Alexandria way before Jesus and John?

I don't know what you are talking about here.

14.Wasn’t the word "god" or "TONTHEOS" also used to refer to others as well as in II Corinthians 4:4 "(and the Devil is) the god of this world" and in Exodus 7:1 "See , I have made thee (Moses) a god to Pharaoh"?

The word god in this case should be understood in context.

SALVATION:
Christians say that "GOD LOST His only son to save us". To whom did God lose Jesus if he owns the whole universe?

I never heard that God "lost" His son to us. But that He gave us His son. But however, LOST should either way be understood in context (what the sentence tried to express). Usually certain words trigger certain feelings, this is one of those words.

15. If it was agreeable with God’s Majesty to have sons, He could have created a million sons the like of Jesus. So what is the big clear deal about this only son?

I'm sure there are a million reasons why He wouldn't do that. I don't know "the deal" of Jesus. Maybe there could only exist one Son of God? We get to be sons in Him.

16.Why does the Bible say that Jesus wanted to die on the cross, when the one on the cross was shouting "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" according to Matthew 27:45 and Mark 15:33?

Where do the Bible say that Jesus wanted to die on the cross?

17. If God had wanted to save us, couldn’t He have done that without sacrificing Jesus?

I don't know.

18. God is Just, and justice requires that nobody should be punished for the sins of others, nor should some people be saved by punishing other people. Doesn’t the claim that God sacrificed Jesus to save us because He was Just, contradict the definition of justice?

No, beyond justice (and the judgement) is mercy. God has shown His love for us (humans) and His mercy.

19. People sacrifice things they have to get something they don’t have when they can’t have both. Christians say that "God SACRIFICED His only son to save us". We know that God is Almighty; to whom did He sacrifice Jesus?

To us and to death. But He rose from death.

Jesus came to Gods temple, and came not with blood of animals but the blood of His own, sacrificing Himself once and for all, so that we in Him can be saved.

20. A real sacrifice is when you can’t get back what you have offered , so what would be the big deal about such a sacrifice if God could recover the same offering? (according to the Christians’ terminology)?

Jesus beat death, death could not hold Him.

21. If all the Christians are saved through Jesus and are going to Heaven no matter what they do, then the teachings of Jesus are irrelevant and the definition of good and bad are also rendered irrelevant. If this is not so, then do Christians who believe in Jesus yet do not follow his teachings nor repent go to Hell?

I can't tell you anything about the Judgement, since I don't know who will be saved and who will not. The Bible tells us that the ones who love has God in them, cause God is love.

22. How can Christians take deeds as irrelevant after becoming one when Jesus says in Matthew 12:36; "But I say unto you that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the Day of Judgment. For by the words thou shalt be justified, and by the words thou shalt be condemned"?

Words are not irrelevant. Not even by todays standards, words can give life and take life. What you say is of great importance.

23. Christians say that people go to Heaven ONLY THROUGH JESUS, yet Paul says in 1 CORINTHIANS 7:8-16 that the unbelieving husband is acceptable to God because he is united with his wife and vice versa, and their pagan children are also acceptable to God. So people can go to heaven without believing in Jesus according to this.

Not to say that people can go to heaven without believing in Jesus.

But by love you can get rid of many sins and get acceptance before God.

You have to go through Jesus though.

24. How come the Bible says that ALL Israel is saved although they don’t believe in Jesus? Doesn’t that contradict the claim in the Bible that the only way to heaven is through Jesus?

Where do the Bible say this?

25. According to Christians, those who have not been baptized will go to Hell. So even the infants and babies go to Hell if not baptized, since they are born with an inherited original sin. Doesn’t this contradict the definition of justice? Why would God punish people for sins they never committed?

I don't know what happens to infants.

HOLY SPIRIT:
The only place in the Bible where the Paraclete was called the Holy Spirit is in John 14:26 "But the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you". What has the Holy Spirit brought or taught for the last 2000 years?

Alot, I've probably got teachings from Him too. Wouldn't surprise me if you got teachings also from the holy spirit.

26.Christians say that the Paraclete means the Holy Spirit (John 14;26). Jesus said in John 16:7-8 "If I do not go away the Paraclete will not come to you". This could not mean the Holy spirit, since the Holy spirit was said to have been there before Jesus was even born as in Luke 1:41 "Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit". Here, the Holy spirit was also present during Jesus life time. So how could this fit with the condition that Jesus must go away so that the Holy spirit will come?

After Jesus had gone away, the spirit of truth would come, and it has come. I don't know why Jesus had to go away in order for the spirit to come.

People have at all times felt the influence by the holy spirit. What Jesus meant with the above passage can only be understood intuitivly. For me at least.

27.In John 16:7-8, it says: "But if go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world of sins and of righteousness and of Judgment". What do "he" and "him" refer here? Don’t they refer to a man?

Not necessarily, but could be.

28.Does the Holy Spirit talk to good Christians and bad Christians as well? Is the Holy spirit with them all the time or just at certain times? When does it start visiting a person who wants to become a Christian?

I would think that the holy spirit is felt and understood. I'm not sure it "talks".

But yes, I do think that both bad and "good" Christians can feel the holy spirit.

May even be that anyone can feel it.

29.How can you as a Christian tell if the Holy Spirit is inside another Christian? How come many Christians fooled people by claiming that the Holy spirit was inside them only to be converted to another religion later on ?

Of course, as in any religion, there are those that are false and have sinful plans in the mind. The Bible have warned us about them, the false prophets and so on...

The Bible tells us that we can tell a good spirit from a bad spirit, if the spirit can aknowledge Jesus as the son of God and that He died for our sins and was resurrected three days after.

30.Does the Holy Spirit dictate what Christians should do without choice or freedom at all or does it only guide them and they have the freedom to follow or not ?

I guess the spirit guides them.

31.If the Holy Spirit dictates what Christian should do, why do Christians commit sins and make mistakes ? How can you explain the conversion to other religions and atheism of many Christians? Are they told to do that by the Holy Spirit?

Christians are no different from the rest. They believe in Christ to be the Son of God and the teachings of Him. This do not mean that we cannot commit sins. The Bible warns us that the belief in Christ has much freedom, and we should be careful not to use that freedom to sin.

32.If the Holy Spirit guides Christians only, and they are free to do what they want, then how do we know that the writers of the Gospels didn’t make mistakes in writing them?

First of all, it's not certain that the holy spirit guides Christian only.

It's possible that the Gospels did mistakes, it was written by ordinary men of flesh and blood. Thus there can be mistakes. But if God wanted there to be a minimum of mistakes, then there is.

33.If Christians believe that the Holy Spirit comes and talks to them everyday, why don’t they ask the Holy Spirit about which version of the Bible to follow since there are too many versions floating around?

Well, I guess christians do ask themselves just that. But in Sweden we have one standard version, thus I haven't really thought about it the same way that you may have. As long as the christians get the same message.

MISSION OF JESUS:
Without borrowing from other religions and systems, can Christianity provide people with a complete way of life? Since Christianity is limited to spiritual life and does not provide law, how can a society decide which laws are right or wrong?

If another religion say that it's wrong to steal, of course Christianity have to borrow from that religion then.

The law is made for unbelievers (from what I can understand), since true believers allready follow the law in their heart.

34.Why do the Christians say that Jesus came with a universal mission when he said that he was sent to the Jews only? He said to the Canaanite woman who asked him to heal her daughter from demon-possession: "I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel" and also said: "It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs", Matthew 15:21-28.

Yes, but He granted her wish and her daughter was healed.

He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. This doesn't mean that His mission weren't universal.

Peace to You

Peace to you too.

 

[-=T=-]

The early church screwed up big time by printing bibles...

T, I have no clue what your speaking of. The printing press wasn't invented until gutenburg.

Sorry, poor choice of words. I should have said "The early church screwed up big time by allowing the publishing of bibles". Of course, the availability of the Bible really exploded with the advent of English translations and the press, and even up until that time (15th century) there was still resistance to the idea of a Bible for the "common" man.

The Pope is regulated by the restrictions under canon law. He simply cannot just proclaim doctrines at whim; there must at least be prior basis for them in the deposit of faith.

"Canon Law" is still a human construct, and is subject to "tweaking"-- witness the Codex Iuris Canonici (Code of Canon Law, CIC), which was published in 1983.
Some Orthodox canon scholars point out that, had the Ecumenical Councils (which deliberated in Greek) meant for the canons to be used as laws, they would have called them nomoi/νομοι (laws) rather than kanones/κανονες (standards).

But if there are two natures in him, it is clear which will dominate.

Do you have any other examples of beings with more than one nature?

No. I guess that is the point that Thomas Hart was making in that quote.

And Jesus becomes immediately very different from us.

Yes, he's different but not in his human nature.

...and:

Jesus is tempted but cannot sin because he is God. What kind of temptation is this? It has little in common with the kinds of struggles we are familiar with.

Given any action that humans can do, God could also do, for God is omnipotent. But sin, being against God's nature, means God will not sin.

Can you recognize the unnecessary complexity that was introduced into the religion by the adoption of the man-made trinity doctrine?

 

[surenderer]

Lol, ok now i see that my original post was a little to long with to many questions anyway thank you fore your response:

Jesus tells us that no one is good but God, not even Jesus at the time He said it. This could be because He was not yet freed from His physical body. Jesus was made like a sinner on earth, so that we could be saved by Him

So you are saying that Jesus(pbuh) was a sinner and not perfect?

Is to be son, less divine? Where did you get this?

Well i get this from everyday life....to be a son means that your father was there 1st right? who was here 1st you or your father? usually who knows more the father or son? are you and your father ever the same person?

You haven't heard His voice or seen His shape have you? Though he that has seen the Son have seen the Father.

Ive been taught that this means that to live like the "son" lives means that you will see God one day but this does contridict(sp?) what the Bible says elsewhere doesnt it?

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,

Well then ALL of us are God's sons? thought Jesus was God's only begotten son?(david is also called this in Psalms though)

I don't know.

Kinda important though dont you think??

Jesus beat death, death could not hold Him.

Didnt Lazurus also?

It's possible that the Gospels did mistakes, it was written by ordinary men of flesh and blood. Thus there can be mistakes. But if God wanted there to be a minimum of mistakes, then there is.

Why would there be any mistakes if it was inspired by God? God isnt the author of confusion right? How do you know the difference between mistakes and truths?Although man did write it if God inspired it then it would be error free right?

He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. This doesn't mean that His mission weren't universal.

But he said his mission wasnt universal he was sent to the Jews ( i do agree that we should live our lives like Jesus lived his though)


Peace to you