To theists: How do you distinguish between reality and wishful thinking?

[greenberg]

They seem threatening. You are scared. For me at that point my interest goes to roots. I don't want to try and figure out if I 'should' feel this way, but to try to get at the root cause of this feeling. Eyes, closed, alone, able to make appropriate noise so that freezing doesn't have to happen but may happen at times in the process. From there an open mind, as much as possible, about any images feelings and impression that come up. And then time.

I take these fears seriously and with respect while knowing that there may be confusion in there, there is probably a very real cause to these fears.

To give you some feedback - For me, it all comes down to the fear that the Universe is evil and that it is impossible to make an end to suffering.

Siddhartha had that fear too, but then he decided to see for himself if that was indeed so.

What is wrong with you? (what do you think is true about you that makes you think you must give yourself over to people who scare you)

That I am God's creation.

 

[greenberg]

Deciding to act/choose positively for God out of fear of retribution is, in God's sight, perfectly legitimate being in accordance with ones true self.

Says you. And some other Christians say that this is wrong, that one must love God freely and not out of fear of hell, and that loving God out of fear of hell is selfish and will get you send to hell.

 

[Saquist]

Oh, but it does. Not of course for a naive realist. To them, life is pretty easy.

I beg your pardon greenberg but philosophy is about as useful to me as a lie presented as the truth. It's undecernable and quite arbitrary. I prefer facts over fiction...

I've been called naive but never in relation to being a realist. I understand if you think philosophy holds the answers...but to me philosophy is more known for it's endless questions than answers. I've always prefered black/white truth/facts math/science.

religion is often full of philosophy and I think that is the key to finding the truth of our existance. Avoid the endless questions and mysteries that are more usefull for running in circles and I don't wish to run in circles.

Auf wiedersehen,

 

[greenberg]

I've been called naive but never in relation to being a realist.

Did you even check out the link?

 

[VitalOne]

Yes, so the dictionary ...


But what about practical application?

How can you make sure that what you know as "God", truly is God, and not simply your projections and wishful thinking?

Personal experiences

 

[lightgigantic]

Again, of course, this makes sense, and I've done it for years.

But the impression I am inevitably picking up from this approach is that one's spiritual and philosophical endeavors are to be taken not too seriously; that one is to get into them as if one had eons and eons of time, and as if it wouldn't really make any difference how soon one arrives at a solution.

It's this laxity, this attitude as if these endeavors wouldn't be a matter of life and death, that really really upset me.

not really
for instance if you look at answering q's such as these by various spiritual philosophies

• what am I
• what is god
• why do I experience suffering
• what is the material world
• what is my ultimate relationship with the material world and god

you can save yourself alot of unneeded wasted time

 

[Saquist]

Did you even check out the link?

Yep, I didn't really like either side...I don't think I fit either "theory". Mostly because I know God exist and that isn't merely about perception of how things really are. Information is required to come to this understanding.

For instance without the Bible I may believe that there was a God or gods that created the Earth but nothing substantial could be said other than we live in a complex world and that would seem to fit a naive realist. I've taken in so much more than just mere observation. I've had to put the pieces together and take them apart to make sure they fit.

SO to speak...

 

[Photizo]

Says you. And some other Christians say that this is wrong, that one must love God freely and not out of fear of hell, and that loving God out of fear of hell is selfish and will get you send to hell.

For some love comes freely, all at once...for others it's gradually over time. Know Thyself--and act/approach Him accordingly. He will accept you as you are--just as He accepted the one who cried "Lord I believe...help my unbelief!"

 

[Saquist]

I agree with Greenberg here. It must come freely, not out of fear of consequence. In which case it would be ingenuine by definition...false. If fear of consequence keeps you from doing something...anything...or makes you do something...then it must be held over you indefinitely to assure your obedience. Anyone who would do this would be unloving.

 

[SkinWalker]

Moderator's Note: Off-topic bickering and preaching comments deleted.

 

[greenberg]

Only He can make us into what we need to be/want to be, and this can only happen in Christ.

I want to be happy, truly happy. But seeking happiness in God or Christ - I might as well blow a bullet to my brain.

To put my trust into someone who is perfectly willing and able to send me to eternal hellfire??
That is like marrying a person who has already threatened to kill me.

 

[Photizo]

To put my trust into someone who is perfectly willing and able to send me to eternal hellfire??

My wife loves/trusts me despite the fact I could physically overpower her.

 

[nova900]

My wife loves/trusts me despite the fact I could physically overpower her.

But does she love and trust you because she actually believes you will physically harm her if she does not?

 

[Photizo]

But does she love and trust you because she actually believes you will physically harm her if she does not?

Nah, I just sing her this song:

"You'll never find, as long as you live
Someone who loves you tender like I do
You'll never find, no matter where you search
Someone who cares about you the way I do

Whoa, I'm not braggin' on myself, baby
But I'm the one who loves you
And there's no one else, no-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh one else

You'll never find, it'll take the end of all time
Someone to understand you like I do
You'll never find the rhythm, the rhyme
All the magic we shared, just us two

Whoa, I'm not tryin' to make you stay, baby
But I know some how, some day, some way
You are (you're gonna miss my lovin')
You're gonna miss my lovin' (you're gonna miss my lovin')
You're gonna miss my lovin' (you're gonna miss my lovin')
You're gonna miss, you're gonna miss my lo-o-ove

Whoa, oh, oh, oh, oh (you're gonna miss my lovin')
Late in the midnight hour, baby (you're gonna miss my lovin')
When it's cold outside (you're gonna miss my lovin')
You're gonna miss, you're gonna miss my lo-o-ove

You'll never find another love like mine
Someone who needs you like I do
You'll never see what you've found in me
You'll keep searching and searching your whole life through
Whoa, I don't wish you no bad luck, baby
But there's no ifs and buts or maybes

You're gonna, You're gonna miss (miss my lovin')
You're gonna miss my lovin' (you're gonna miss my lovin')
I know you're gonna my lovin' (you're gonna miss my lovin')
You're gonna miss, you're gonna miss my lo-o-ove

Whoa, oh, oh, oh, oh (you're gonna miss my lovin')
Late in the midnight hour, baby (you're gonna miss my lovin')
When it gets real cold outside (you're gonna miss my lovin')
I know, I know that you are gonna miss my lo-o-ove

Let me tell you that you're gonna miss my lovin'
Yes you will, baby (you're gonna miss my lovin')
When I'm long gon
I know, I know, I know that you are gonna miss my lovin' "

 

[Grantywanty]

To give you some feedback - For me, it all comes down to the fear that the Universe is evil and that it is impossible to make an end to suffering.

I've had that fear. But this is general. I think the fears around why you, personally, deserve to suffer are also very important. What is it about you personally?

Siddhartha had that fear too, but then he decided to see for himself if that was indeed so.

And he ended up advocated a distancing from portions of the self, heavy emphasis on emotions. And if that is appealing to you, go for it.

That I am God's creation.

I can see where this might make you think God has rights of ownership or something. But why would God want to hurt you? (I am not asking incredulously. I am asking to find out exactly what your answer, inside, seems to be. If we do not get the answer to this question, I believe we will spend our lives trying not to be whatever this is. And you cannot end suffering as long as you fight not to be what you are.)

 

[greenberg]

I've had that fear. But this is general. I think the fears around why you, personally, deserve to suffer are also very important. What is it about you personally?

You mean whether I think I'm bad and stupid and such - and therefore deserve to suffer?

I don't think I deserve to suffer. But there is suffering.

And he ended up advocated a distancing from portions of the self, heavy emphasis on emotions. And if that is appealing to you, go for it.

It seems that you and Buddhism have very different ideas about what the self is.

But why would God want to hurt you?

Because God (as described by the Bible) is evil and insane. Evil and insane people go around hurting others - but an evil and insane God can do a lot more than a person, I suppose.
A God might have the power to erase my good karma!


(But I'm actually laughing now - my, what a mixture of Buddhism and Christianity I have! :shrug: :bawl

 

[Thoreau]

I'm suprised this thread got this far. Bunch of mumbo jumbo.

 

[Grantywanty]

You mean whether I think I'm bad and stupid and such - and therefore deserve to suffer?

Those are possible examples.

I don't think I deserve to suffer. But there is suffering.

If you can be that strong in relation to God - whether God exists or not - that you can flatly say you don't think you deserve to suffer, how can you be so vulnerable to Christians who are basically saying if you do not listen to us you will deserve to suffer and you will suffer.

It seems that you and Buddhism have very different ideas about what the self is.

Yes.

Because God (as described by the Bible) is evil and insane. Evil and insane people go around hurting others - but an evil and insane God can do a lot more than a person, I suppose.
A God might have the power to erase my good karma!

It again makes me wonder how you felt vulnerable to be sucked back into Christianity. Or perhaps I misunderstood you.

(But I'm actually laughing now - my, what a mixture of Buddhism and Christianity I have! :shrug: :bawl

A God how made a Karma system that needed occasional adjustments. In your case, for example. Like you somehow found a loophole so he had to intervene in his otherwise well-oiled clock. Interesting in any case. You come off as rather special. You beat the system and the old guy has to get off his sofa or at least find the remote.

 

[Saquist]

Yes...I'm a bit confused on Greenbergs comments.

 

[greenberg]

Nah, I just sing her this song:

"You'll never find, as long as you live
Someone who loves you tender like I do
You'll never find, no matter where you search
Someone who cares about you the way I do

Whoa, I'm not braggin' on myself, baby
But I'm the one who loves you
And there's no one else, no-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh one else

...

This actually says it all. A manipulative, needy, clingy, oppressive, emotionally blackmailing mindset.

If someone said to me what those lyrics say, I would break up with them immediately.