To theists: How do you distinguish between reality and wishful thinking?

[(Q)]

I: But how do you know you're not simply imagining things?
She: I have no imagination! [turns away and walks away]

You've just had answered your question in the OP.

She does have an imagination, but is unable to distinguish it from reality as her reality now includes magic as a credible and valid concept, ergo, anything goes. The sky is no longer the limit.

The line between what is real and what isn't in her mind is now governed by her own personal agenda, driven by what she feels suits her best with her religion. And of course, that would be fickle at best, changing from day to day as she entertains any notion at all and fits it into her "belief du jour".

 

[Photizo]

You've just had answered your question in the OP.

She does have an imagination, but is unable to distinguish it from reality as her reality now includes magic as a credible and valid concept, ergo, anything goes. The sky is no longer the limit.

The line between what is real and what isn't in her mind is now governed by her own personal agenda, driven by what she feels suits her best with her religion. And of course, that would be fickle at best, changing from day to day as she entertains any notion at all and fits it into her "belief du jour".

Yes, she probably does have an imagination, but what she does with it exactly you have no way of knowing...what you have ascribed to her is, more than likely, based upon what you know about you, not her. She said she believes in God's Word. God's Word remains constant and accordingly, for the most part so would her beliefs...she may change her school of thought as to Calvinism versus Arminianism for example, but the Word of God remains constant in what it says. The object of one's faith makes a big difference.

What you have described above (according to what you know), culminating in the phrase "belief du jour", in fact pertains to those who follow the fleeting fads of 'science', not those whose faith is in God's Word...

 

[(Q)]

What you have described above (according to what you know), culminating in the phrase "belief du jour", in fact pertains to those who follow the fleeting fads of 'science', not those whose faith is in God's Word...

As a theist, you have absolute disdain and reprehension towards science, yes?

So, toss out your computer, give up your internet connection, don't take any medicine and go live in a cave devoid of any "scientific fads." Live the life of a true theist.

And if you don't, then you are a hypocrite and should simply shut the fuck up.

 

[Photizo]

As a theist, you have absolute disdain and reprehension towards science, yes?

Not quite. I have "absolute disdain and reprehension" for the denial and hypocrisy exhibited by many of those doing the science.

 

[Saquist]

Would you say that your distinguishing between reality and imagination is a matter of choice?

After viewing the facts and the evidence it really dosen't leave you with much of a choice.

 

[Grantywanty]

I have to say that talking about emotions this way is too abstract for me to make much of it.
That was another reason I departed from the 12-Step philosophy - it was too abstract for me.

Then be concrete. How do you feel when you think of Christians and God? What happens when you consider doing what you want to do or exploring something new?

 

[greenberg]

Not quite. I have "absolute disdain and reprehension" for the denial and hypocrisy exhibited by many of those doing the science.

Right. They wilfully rebel, they deliberately deny, they lie, they have no integrity - while all along knowing the Truth.

Has it ever occured to you, Photizo, that if a person believes about themselves that they are liars, or that they are evil, or that they have no integrity, that such a person can never progress beyond blind belief and wishful thinking?

Has it ever occured to you that if a person believes about themselves that they have no integrity, to them, no choice they make, no action they undertake will be of any value, and they will doubt themselves (and everyone else) to their grave? They'll become insane.

 

[greenberg]

Then be concrete. How do you feel when you think of Christians and God?

I have a fight or flight response. With all the adrenaline, cortisol, muscle tension.

What happens when you consider doing what you want to do or exploring something new?

I fear that I won't be able to prevail, that I will be overcome, subdued.

 

[greenberg]

After viewing the facts and the evidence it really dosen't leave you with much of a choice.

Oh, but it does. Not of course for a naive realist. To them, life is pretty easy.

 

[Grantywanty]

I have a fight or flight response. With all the adrenaline, cortisol, muscle tension.

They seem threatening. You are scared. For me at that point my interest goes to roots. I don't want to try and figure out if I 'should' feel this way, but to try to get at the root cause of this feeling. Eyes, closed, alone, able to make appropriate noise so that freezing doesn't have to happen but may happen at times in the process. From there an open mind, as much as possible, about any images feelings and impression that come up. And then time.

I take these fears seriously and with respect while knowing that there may be confusion in there, there is probably a very real cause to these fears.

I fear that I won't be able to prevail, that I will be overcome, subdued.

And that was the core feeling I was getting before and that's why I asked you about anger. Something is trying to prevail on you. Does it have that right? Why? Why does Greenberg deserve to be prevailed over?

What is wrong with you? (what do you think is true about you that makes you think you must give yourself over to people who scare you)

 

[Photizo]

Right. They wilfully rebel, they deliberately deny, they lie, they have no integrity - while all along knowing the Truth.

Has it ever occured to you, Photizo, that if a person believes about themselves that they are liars, or that they are evil, or that they have no integrity, that such a person can never progress beyond blind belief and wishful thinking?

Has it ever occured to you that if a person believes about themselves that they have no integrity, to them, no choice they make, no action they undertake will be of any value, and they will doubt themselves (and everyone else) to their grave? They'll become insane.

No pain no gain as they say...Has it ever occured to you that if what the Word of God says is true, then after a certain point, (that is, the mule has been brought to the Water of Life but refuses to drink) all the existential angst on your part is nothing but a sham?

 

[Grantywanty]

No pain no gain as they say...Has it ever occured to you that if what the Word of God says is true, then after a certain point, (that is, the mule has been brought to the Water of Life but refuses to drink) all the existential angst on your part is nothing but a sham?

Why would that be the case? Even within fairly orthodox interpretations there is room for Dark nights of the Soul, Crises of FAith. Even Jesus had trouble at times with his beliefs and once with the absence of God.

Not that I want Greenberg to find a nice home in Christianity. But I don't think what you said works:

 

[(Q)]

Not quite. I have "absolute disdain and reprehension" for the denial and hypocrisy exhibited by many of those doing the science.

Then, you ARE a hypocrite. Move to a cave.

 

[Photizo]

Move to a cave.

No thanks...unlike you, I prefer living/walking in The Light.

 

[(Q)]

No thanks...unlike you, I prefer living/walking in The Light.

Then, you need to curb your comments against science, as it has been and continues to be the one thing keeping you alive, comfortable, healthy and in communication with the world, amongst a huge host of other things while religion has brought you nothing whatsoever.

 

[Photizo]

Then, you need to curb your comments against science, as it has been and continues to be the one thing keeping you alive, comfortable, healthy and in communication with the world, amongst a huge host of other things while religion has brought you nothing whatsoever.

My comments are not against 'science' itself but the against methodologies of many doing the 'science'. Science, done correctly and honestly points those made in the Creator's Image back to their Creator, not away from Him.

Understand this..."Religion" has nothing whatsoever to do with the things I speak of. I have no interest in what you term "religion."

[Preaching/Sermon Deleted]

 

[(Q)]

My comments are not against 'science' itself but the against methodologies of many doing the 'science'. Science, done correctly and honestly points those made in the Creator's Image back to their Creator, not away from Him.

The methodology of science are the same, it's called the Scientific Method. So, again please curb your hypocritical, unsubstantiated and meaningless comments against science AND it's methodology, or go live in a cave with your creator.

 

[greenberg]

No pain no gain as they say...Has it ever occured to you that if what the Word of God says is true, then after a certain point, (that is, the mule has been brought to the Water of Life but refuses to drink) all the existential angst on your part is nothing but a sham?

In a way, you're right. If what the Word of God says is true, then God is evil and insane, and discussing or even just attempting to discuss anything with such a God or his proponents, or trying to make sense of the situation, is pointless.

 

[Photizo]

Why would that be the case? Even within fairly orthodox interpretations there is room for Dark nights of the Soul, Crises of FAith. Even Jesus had trouble at times with his beliefs and once with the absence of God.

It would certainly be the case if the Word of God is true in that the Word of God declares man's tendency is to suppress what He senses/'knows' to be true...it says that God has placed within man a certain sense of Himself (God) and that this sense directs Him toward God. Because of this, there is no excuse for disobedience to this inner 'voice' telling Him what is true regarding God. Nothing of what I said fails to appreciate or allow for any of what you describe with respect to dark nights of the soul etc...However, in such cases the 'dark night' is always after the fact of conversion...every believer has them...periods of disillusionment with God etc...however, the particular situation at hand is different, conversion has not taken place.

Saying "after a certain point" while not specifically indicating a precise time frame, nevertheless implicitly allows for the searching and weighing necessary for an individual to decipher the inner conversations one has with oneself...at the same time, it provides a reminder/goad to action, because sooner or later given the Truth of Gods Word, failure to act becomes increasingly difficult to justify.

Deciding to act/choose positively for God out of fear of retribution is, in God's sight, perfectly legitimate being in accordance with ones true self. Self preservation is part and parcel of how we are wired...The same can be said of acting out of desire to gain heaven...in both cases integrity is maintained as one is acting consistent with how one truly is on the inside...As the psalmist declares "Thou desirest truth in the inward parts." We come to know the truth of what is on the inside of us not by our own understanding, but through God's Word. His Word tells us not to trust ourselves but Him... His Word tells us our hearts are deceitful...Confronted with His Word we yield or we resist...the majority resist, and it is the majority Jesus says, who perish because of it.

 

[Photizo]

The methodology of science are the same, it's called the Scientific Method. So, again please curb your hypocritical, unsubstantiated and meaningless comments against science AND it's methodology, or go live in a cave with your creator.

The "methodology of science" is merely a tool. I'm sure you're familiar with the adage "use the right tool for the right job." To do so depends upon the competency of the one holding the tool, not the tool itself.