To all Catholics

Cris said:
Those are human actions they do not constitute proof for the existence of a god.
What is the kind of proof that is required to prove the existance of God? Do you have any specific criteria or method by which to prove the existance of God? Suppose I said "There is God", would that be sufficient proof for you? If not, what additional information would you require?

I'm just curious.
 
Okinrus,

I don't really see good persay in intelligence.
What we do see is that intelligence created the atomic bomb etc.
And anti-biotics that have saved millions of lives and cures for numerous diseases and the computer you are using to post these messages, and the emergency medical services that save thousands of lives every year, and new agricultural systems that now feed millions that would otherwise have starved, and the ability to extend life into the 100’s whereas the average lifetime of the average caveman is estimated at around 20.

And more importantly intelligence gives us the ability to determine whether religions have any value or not. This survey shows that the more intelligent you are then the less likely you will be religious.

http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelligence & religion.htm

Clearly we have to choose good based on our knowledge of good but this choice itself is not based on intelligence.
Without intelligence to interpret knowledge the knowledge would be useless. Ask the average dog.

It would not be surprising that those who do not choose good will not have good.
Certainly. It is called rational morality. The creation of a loving and cooperative society is to the direct benefit of the group as well as all individuals. We don’t need a religion to reason in this manner.

Nevertheless this fear is only the fear of losing God's love.
Is it? I doubt it. It is more like a fear of death and pain. And the idea of eternal torture and pain seems like a good incentive to believe in a God. In this respect God’s love would be a bonus.
 
Afteruth,

Welcome to sciforums.

What is the kind of proof that is required to prove the existance of God? Do you have any specific criteria or method by which to prove the existance of God?
The scientific method.

Suppose I said "There is God", would that be sufficient proof for you?
An unsupported assertion cannot represent a proof.
 
[qoute]
And anti-biotics that have saved millions of lives and cures for numerous diseases and the computer you are using to post these messages, and the emergency medical services that save thousands of lives every year, and new agricultural systems that now feed millions that would otherwise have starved, and the ability to extend life into the 100’s whereas the average lifetime of the average caveman is estimated at around 20.
[/quote]
Yes because they are using their intelligence for good
use.

And more importantly intelligence gives us the ability to determine whether religions have any value or not. This survey shows that the more intelligent you are then the less likely you will be religious.
I consider athiesm a religion with various sects such as communism etc. I though athiesm was about
thinking for yourself. Before Columbus discovered America,
a pole like the one you gave would have turn out with
even more choosing the wrong result.

Is it? I doubt it. It is more like a fear of death and pain. And the idea of eternal torture and pain seems like a good incentive to believe in a God. In this respect God’s love would be a bonus.
I'm not sure what you mean. Hell is the lack of God's love but
what is their to fear unless if we have God's love.
 
Thanks Cris for the welcome...
The scientific method.
Your answer was very general, but maybe my question was phrased improperly. But if I have understood the implications of your answer correctly, then what you are saying is that you only believe in that which you can prove scientifically. In other words you refuse to believe in anything that you cannot personally prove scientifically. Now here are certain things, that billions of people on this earth cannot prove for themselves, yet they believe to be true...

That the earth goes around the sun...

The Big Bang origin of the universe...

The Challenger Deep is the deepest ocean bed...

all part of science, but I cannot prove it personally, yet I believe that these are truths because I believe what the scientists are telling me is correct. And it is not that these scientists on who I repose so much faith have not contridicted themselves. For years I was told that the humaniods left Africa 250,000 years ago to populate the rest of the globe, but recent DNA tests say they did that just 60000 years ago. Another case of scientific incompetance and/or motivation emerges from the on-going dispute between the WHO scientists and the US scientists on the effects of sugar on health. I am in no way trying to belittle the value of science, but to expect that every thing must be proved scientifically, for one to accept as truth, is an unscientific expectation... It is my belief that over 90% of what we hold to be true are based on our faith on what others tell us.

Afterall most people have faith in their mothers when she says that the one they call father is their biological father. They don't demand a scientific evidence. No faith... no life...
 
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okinrus-

I consider athiesm a religion with various sects such as communism etc. I though athiesm was about thinking for yourself

Wow, thats a pretty ignorant statement. Communism??!?!?!
Atheists do think for themselves, as far as I know, there is no bible for atheists.

There are no eternal consequences for not believing in a particular athiest concept. Nothing to be held to as a result of simple association.
 
Regarding visions - the human eye sees what it wants to see. Recently we all saw on tv those images of the "virgin mary" appearing in Australia - a trick of the light on a particular configuration/alignment of a set of gate posts.

I see different shapes in the clouds which I can study at work at sundown and sunup - I can read anything I want to into them - it does not mean that my "vision" is divine.
 
Praying of any kind is anti-Christian. I mean, God has a divine plan, yet you think you have the right to ask him to make amendments as and when it suits you?

I think you're confusing "prayer" with "asking God for things." "Prayer," in the Christian tradition, is simply "relationship." As "friendship" might be the category for a certain kind of relationship with another human being, so "prayer" is the word which means "a man's relationship with God." He may or may not grant requests as you like. The fact is that God illumines the mind in such a way that one begins to see what is beautiful in his/her life that was already there.
 
Cris,

Your reply to my post sort of demonstrates to me your very "Protestant/Calvinist" understanding of the Christian religion. Try resorting to the Catechism of the Catholic Church; i.e., the actual document.

But to answer the claim about "Do you realize how idiotic that sounds?"---

By "God's search for man," we mean the redemption of Christ. Men are lost wandering in the desert after the Fall; they do not know where they are going, they do not know how to find God; and then along comes Christ, looking for man, because God loves man...but because of man's fallen nature, he might not have known how much God cared.

God cannot be spoken of in anthropomorphic terms if He is ever to be understood.
 
Originally posted by Kant we all...
God cannot be spoken of in anthropomorphic terms if He is ever to be understood.

Yes, let us leave him as vague as possible, then he will be best understood. Cris, you do an impressive job in refuting the "attacks" that are repeated in every forum.
 
Yes, let us leave him as vague as possible, then he will be best understood.

I don't know about "vague," but the only way to understand God is that He is beyond all human comprehension. And then, once you understand that, you must negate again--for He is even beyond that. Affirmation and negation, they call it. For example, God is holy; however, He is not holy as we understand it--for He is far beyond our understanding of holiness. Whenever we say we "understand God," we could not be further from understanding Him. Understanding God as a mystic understands God is not a question of understanding Him in relation to ourselves, except insofar as it is a relation of ourselves, and then much more than ourselves.
 
Originally posted by Kant we all...
I think you're confusing "prayer" with "asking God for things." "Prayer," in the Christian tradition, is simply "relationship." As "friendship" might be the category for a certain kind of relationship with another human being, so "prayer" is the word which means "a man's relationship with God." He may or may not grant requests as you like. The fact is that God illumines the mind in such a way that one begins to see what is beautiful in his/her life that was already there.
I have never once saw or heard anyone of a Christian denomination praying for something outwith the criteria stated in my first post, namely something that would not intererfere with the "great plan" God has.
 
Afteruth,

Your answer was very general,
No it was very specific. Here are a few links that might help.

The Scientific Method.

http://home.xnet.com/~blatura/skep_1.html
http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/AppendixE/AppendixE.html
http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node5.html
http://www.selu.edu/Academics/Education/EDF600/Mod3/

There are plenty more if you do a google search.

but maybe my question was phrased improperly. But if I have understood the implications of your answer correctly, then what you are saying is that you only believe in that which you can prove scientifically.
This is the recognized best method for the determination and discovery of knowledge and truth. Can you provide anything that is recognized as better?

Note that “science” means - the state of knowing.

In other words you refuse to believe in anything that you cannot personally prove scientifically.
No. But I can read and evaluate scientific articles that have undergone significant scrutiny and peer review by hundreds if not thousands of other scientists.

Since your assumption above was incorrect the rest of your post doesn’t really make sense but I’ll respond as best I can.

That the earth goes around the sun...
Is there a reason to doubt this?

The Big Bang origin of the universe...
I don’t believe this. Current theories indicate that our big bang is probably just one of an infinite number of big bangs.

The Challenger Deep is the deepest ocean bed...
Any reason to doubt the measurements?

For years I was told that the humaniods left Africa 250,000 years ago to populate the rest of the globe, but recent DNA tests say they did that just 60000 years ago.
Don’t become confused between facts and theories. Read the links I’ve posted so you will understand. If you’ve studied any science in school then you should have covered these basics.

Another case of scientific incompetance and/or motivation emerges from the on-going dispute between the WHO scientists and the US scientists on the effects of sugar on health.
Again read the links above so you will understand why your assessment is not correct.

I am in no way trying to belittle the value of science, but to expect that every thing must be proved scientifically, for one to accept as truth, is an unscientific expectation...
No again, you don’t understand the scientific method yet.

Of course if you choose to believe something that hasn’t been proved as true then you run the risk of believing something that is false. The rational approach is to withhold belief until proof is available. There is nothing forcing you to believe something before proof is available, in fact such an approach would be irrational.

You should also understand the difference between deductive and inductive logic and realize that most of science is inductive as are many decisions we make in real life.

It is my belief that over 90% of what we hold to be true are based on our faith on what others tell us.
Faith is never required. If you are unsure that something you are told is incorrect then you are free to check it out yourself. As for believing scientists and their articles then it is still your responsibility to evaluate the evidence that is always offered in responsible articles so you can make your own decision.

If you are used to believing others without verification then you run the real risk of being incredibly gullible.

Afterall most people have faith in their mothers when she says that the one they call father is their biological father. They don't demand a scientific evidence.
Why not? If you have reason to doubt what you are told or it is important for other reasons then a scientific check would always be possible.

But what you are really saying is that we generally trust those who have told us things that have turned out to be true in the past. This is not faith but inductive reasoning. We do this all the time. E.g. if your mother had had a string of boyfriends at the time you were born and you have discovered she has lied to you in other areas, then that raises the probability that perhaps you do not know your real father – a DNA check might be a good idea. I.e. you have statistically evaluated the probability of truth of what your mother has told you. Most people do this automatically, as I am sure you do.

No faith... no life...
Faith is the path of the gullible, the ignorant, and the lazy. But apart from religion most people rarely use blind faith in their everyday lives.
 
Free Cycle,

Cris, you do an impressive job in refuting the "attacks" that are repeated in every forum.
Thanks, but it is time consuming, although it is becoming easier after years of practice. But there are others here who could do a much better job, Raithere, and Tiassa for example.

But it is good to have some quality opponents as well. There is no debate without two sides.
 
Kant we all,

Your reply to my post sort of demonstrates to me your very "Protestant/Calvinist" understanding of the Christian religion. Try resorting to the Catechism of the Catholic Church; i.e., the actual document.
Yes well spotted. That was my background when I was a Christian for a few years, umm back in the late 60’s. I prefer to avoid cult/denomination specifics though and attempt to argue based on reason alone. But Catholicism is definitely not my strength.

By "God's search for man," we mean the redemption of Christ. Men are lost wandering in the desert after the Fall; they do not know where they are going, they do not know how to find God; and then along comes Christ, looking for man, because God loves man...but because of man's fallen nature, he might not have known how much God cared.
Ok. So here is general outline of the Christian story taken from a Christian site some years ago – how would your perspective differ from this?

Christian mythology.

1. Adam was immortal.
2. To sin means to disobey God.
3. Adam sinned.
4. The punishment for sin is death.
5. Adam died.
6. All men after Adam inherited his mortality.
7. The nature of all men became sinful.
8. All men sin.
9. All men died.
10. Jesus was divine.
11. Jesus gave up his divinity.
12. Jesus came to earth as a man.
13. Jesus never sinned.
14. Jesus did not deserve to die because he never sinned.
15. Jesus accepted the punishment due to every man.
16. Jesus sacrificed himself to God in place of all mankind.
17. God could raise Jesus to life again because Jesus did not break his laws.
18. God resurrected Jesus.
19. God gave Jesus a new nature that was free from the sinful nature of man.
20. God gave man the gift of eternal life if man believed in Jesus.
21. Man no longer needed to die for his sins.
22. Man had to request forgiveness from Jesus if he wanted to live.
23. When men die they have to wait for the second coming of Jesus and judgment.
24. Those who are judged worthy will be resurrected to a heavenly paradise.
25. Those who are judged not worthy will suffer torment for eternity.
 
1. Adam was immortal.
2. To sin means to disobey God.
3. Adam sinned.
4. The punishment for sin is death.
5. Adam died.
6. All men after Adam inherited his mortality.
7. The nature of all men became sinful.
8. All men sin.
9. All men died.
9 is questionable. I say this because the bible
says that Enoch and Elijah were taken up to God.
However perhaps they will come back at the
end to be the last two witnesses in Relevation. Then again
maybe because they were take up to God we
presume they saw the face of the Father and
automatically died.

10. Jesus was divine.
11. Jesus gave up his divinity.
12. Jesus came to earth as a man.
Jesus was both man and God so he never
gave up his divinity.
 
Originally posted by Cris
Yes well spotted. That was my background when I was a Christian for a few years, umm back in the late 60’s. I prefer to avoid cult/denomination specifics though and attempt to argue based on reason alone. But Catholicism is definitely not my strength.
Don't mean to come across as "Looking for a fight", but Catholicism in comparison to all other branches of Christianity is very very easy to refute. In my days as a rather enthusiastic Christian, I used to love it when you were out spreading the word and someone would say "Nah, it's alright, I'm a Catholic" :p
You can literally take everything they do differently from "mainstream" Christianity and find verse after verse condemning the practice.
 
Don't mean to come across as "Looking for a fight", but Catholicism in comparison to all other branches of Christianity is very very easy to refute. In my days as a rather enthusiastic Christian, I used to love it when you were out spreading the word and someone would say "Nah, it's alright, I'm a Catholic"
You can literally take everything they do differently from "mainstream" Christianity and find verse after verse condemning the practice.
Since Catholics canonized the books of the bible, before
Martin Luther threw a few out, you cannot find verse after verse condemning catholics. Most of what I've seen of mainstream
christians is misunderstanding.
 
I have never once saw or heard anyone of a Christian denomination praying for something outwith the criteria stated in my first post, namely something that would not intererfere with the "great plan" God has.

I'm confused. Was this supposed to be a compliment or an detraction? Or was it just something new that you'd honestly never heard of?
 
1. Adam was immortal.

Speaking from the premise of evolution and God as compatible (and I believe they are--I believe evolution is the work of God), Adam was not immortal, per se, but immortal insofar as his soul was immortal; I am not very sure on this point, however, for it could have, indeed, been that by God's donning Adam as the first creature with a soul, he then became physically immortal as well.

2. To sin means to disobey God.

Yes.

3. Adam sinned.

Yes.

4. The punishment for sin is death.

This spiritual death which is the result of death is not a "punishment"--at least not by God. The point is that God does not choose death for man: man chooses his own death by ceasing to be like God--i.e., by not being good, by sinning.

5. Adam died.

Physically, of couse--Adam died. Spiritually, however, I am not sure. The sacred tradition is that all of the biblical good men--since Christ had not yet come to save--went to a "limbo" state where they would await the Messiah.

6. All men after Adam inherited his mortality.

Yes.

7. The nature of all men became sinful.

Sinfulness did not become "nature," but "preference." The stain of "original sin" was unavoidable; men had little or no power from destroying themselves because of a lack of the light of God in their souls. If their nature was sinful, they chose for it to be sinful. But they did have that stain; and just as when a bad habit becomes a part of you and gives the illusion of being good for you, so by this stain of original sin did sin seem preferable.

8. All men sin.

Yes.

9. All men died.

Physically, yes; a fact of life is death. But again, spiritually, I think it is hard to say; it depends on the virtue of the person. There is no telling.

10. Jesus was divine.

Yes.

11. Jesus gave up his divinity.

Yes and no. Jesus never stopped being God, though He was also man, much to the dismay of the Mormons who do not believe Jesus was God, but just a servant of God.

12. Jesus came to earth as a man.

Yes. But as God and man.

13. Jesus never sinned.

Yes, though He was sorely tempted. It would have been a shining day for evil had God himself betrayed His own Nature.

14. Jesus did not deserve to die because he never sinned.

Sure, but not just because of that. I suppose He also did not deserve to die because He was God. But it was His purpose to die.

15. Jesus accepted the punishment due to every man.

Yes.

16. Jesus sacrificed himself to God in place of all mankind.

Yes.

17. God could raise Jesus to life again because Jesus did not break his laws.

It is not as though He "earned it." It is what He was meant for.

18. God resurrected Jesus.

Yes.

19. God gave Jesus a new nature that was free from the sinful nature of man.

Jesus already possessed this nature; for He was God all along. What happened was that man's nature was transformed back into the reflection of God's Nature. Jesus' purpose in becoming man was so that God would be united with man; thusly, mankind being united with God, as such, in the person of Jesus, mankind would be risen with Him.

20. God gave man the gift of eternal life if man believed in Jesus.

It is not as though this was some "new reward." Eternal life was what man was made for from the start; Adam and Eve ruined that. Christianity is not a religion of "cheating death"--it is a religion of God saving ourselves from ourselves--because we couldn't do it on our own--and getting us back what He made us for in the first place. Eternal life is not so much a "reward" as it is what we were made for--it's Manifest Destiny, not the Nobel Prize.

21. Man no longer needed to die for his sins.

Sure.

22. Man had to request forgiveness from Jesus if he wanted to live.

Somewhat. Usually that is the case; for the Christian anyway. Those who live in honest ignorance...it is difficult to say. But someone can still be saved depending on the circumstances--which only God, by the way, can judge--, but if they are saved--whether Hindu or Buddhist, or Jewish or Arabic--they are saved by Christ. Though, in that scenario, it would have to happen in a very odd, oblique, roundabout fashion.

23. When men die they have to wait for the second coming of Jesus and judgment.

Most will find themselves in purgatory after death; not a place, per se, but a "process" where the faithful are cleansed by a recognition of all of their sins; eventually they join the lot of the saints who suffered their purgatory while yet on Earth; canonized (or "sainted") souls are those who, upon death, find themselves immediately wrapped in the love of God in heaven.

24. Those who are judged worthy will be resurrected to a heavenly paradise.

There is this judgment. When the judgment arrives, the bodies of the dead will rise, and be judged, and souls shall be reunited to their earthly bodies, and those who obeyed their conscience and preferred being what they were made to be rather than choosing their own way are conformed unto the Heavenly Stature of the Risen Christ; by man's unity to Christ, they shall shine even more brilliantly and beautifully than the angels. Man shall then have reached the fulness of his destiny; for then he shall be back in Eden, then he shall be like God again.

25. Those who are judged not worthy will suffer torment for eternity.

This "torment," again, is self-absorption. Men were made for communion with God. When man refuses God, he refuses his own meaning, his own nature. For the honest Christian, to desert God would be as absurd as deserting a vital organ. This "torment" is simply the eternal loss of God. It is probably not torment as we understand it now. It is a different kind of torment; it is a torment of understanding just how painful existence is without God. For God's essence is existence; to refuse God a place in your life is to stop "being" ("being" not as noun, but as verb).

It is all sort of like Plato's Allegory of the Cave.
 
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