To all Catholics

yes, i am very satisfied with the physical, but i do not deny the spiritual because i am satisfied with the physical. I deny the spiritual because, unlike you, i do not feel the presence of God. And i can not believe in a God that does not show his/her/its presence to me.
I could not follow something so blindly, i do not have the faith in God. I can not devote a large portion of my life to something that i do not even know exists.
If that does not answer you question tell me. :)
 
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Originally posted by edgar
o yea......the church is going to have total control over my actions.........its gonna send altar boys to beat me into submission...

We were talking from "medieval times here" I just added to "present day". Don't forget the medieval so called "ignorant" was stuck with religion through brainwashing and indoctrination.
 
Abdiel.......... i have no patience for wankers who carry on with shit.

Hate is an emotion..... Love is an emotion..... Both are chemical reactions designed to help you and your species survive ..... what more bloody proof do you want ? dont believe me ...... go to.. www.google.com
 
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I can't believe this

I can't believe you people. I am younger then all of you but most likely the strongest in my faith. I am Catholic, I was raised Catholic and still am Catholic. It's pathetic to read this, I can't even believe I'm wasting my time responding to this. I don't think that Catholism is just one thing, everyone is different and endowed to thier own way of seeing it. I asked my preist once what "being Catholic" was and he smiled and said it was believing God was our savior and our father. I see it as that. And to the starter of this, get real, just because you are weak in your faith doesn't mean that our religion, or any other in that fact is wrong. We aren't the Satans of Christianity (as I read in other forums like this), we are believers in our savior and God, just like you. I'm 13 and I know God is some where watching over me. I have talked to him and I know that I may go through ruff times but that it's ok and I have gone through more crap then most of you will ever have to and I know there will be better times ahead of me. I pray for people like you, I only hope God has more mercy then I do.

No one religion is right, everyone except the worst of sinners will go to heaven I know this and hold this true.
 
Beauty,
I started this tread to understand what Catholicism means to Catholics, NOT to question anyone's faith.
As you said, "I don't think that Catholism is just one thing, everyone is different and endowed to thier own way of seeing it".
Im just trying to find out what that is from different people.

"And to the starter of this, get real, just because you are weak in your faith doesn't mean that our religion, or any other in that fact is wrong."

Did I ever say that your religion is wrong??? If so point it out for me.
What I said, while answering a question from Abdiel, is that i have very little faith so i can not believe in God.
I am very glad that you have faith and that you will alwayse have someone there with you when there are "ruff times".
 
...

When you asked though It sounded rude and I take things wrong sometimes but through the whole post you seemed doubtful and mean. I'm sorry if I was wrong but I still believe your rude.
 
try reading what i have said again, but from my point of view.

PS: I envy you for having faith (take it as a compliment):)
 
Originally posted by Mors
What does catholicism mean to you?

Why do you confess to a priest when you could speak directly toward God?

Why would you devote your life to a God which you do not have physical proof exists?

Mors,

To answer the first question would be difficult, indeed; for it is quite "broad." Catholicism, however, does have one central meaning: the death and ressurrection of the Christ.

To answer the next question, one must initially have a solid understanding of the first principles of Christian theology. To sum up, the Church herself is what is known as the "mystical" body of Christ; whereas the historical Jesus is the physical. In a sense--and this is not pantheism--we are all (I'm sure you've heard it) "one body, many parts." Each person is serves a function in the church as service to the head of the church (i.e., Christ). Therefore, as a chip on the windshield leads inevitably to the discontent of the whole bloody thing, when someone sins, they sin against the entire body of Christ, i.e., the church. To put it another way, if I sin, it hurts you too--it is not just about me. So, the reason the penitent goes to a priest is because the priest is a representative not solely of Christ, but of the whole church, as well. In the priest's granting "pardon and peace" to the penitent, that is the church as a unit who is forgiving. In fact, in the earlier church people were made to confess their sins in public; but fortunately the Irish devised the simpler manner in which the penitent visits the priest in the more confidential "confessional"--and this is what has remained since that...I could not tell you the date, however...I don't really know when it began that way...but I should expect it was shortly after the Christianization of Ireland...whenever that was...ask St. Patrick.

As for your third question, I must be the skeptic to the skeptic and insist that your question only matters, first of all, if "physical proof" is of value. Is it? I suppose it is most of the time. If you say "God", however, you are presupposing a spiritual, not material, Being...otherwise, it would not be a 'god.' As for the One True God--Yahweh, of whom we are speaking--if one takes the Jewish scriptures for face value (which you probably don't) as any other "historical document", one surely notices that there are several instances of at least somewhat "physical" occurrences of God; Moses' visits with God on Mt. Sinai, for example. For something to be truly "empirical" anyway, a person has to experience the event with the senses; but for that matter, why should you or I believe anything any, say, contemporary biologist says about evolution? After all, I didn't "see" evolution happen...so why shall I believe it did, or is happening? I am not going to get into this debate; I do not have any problems with evolution being true--whether it is or not, it certainly does not refute the existence of God...if anything, it supports belief in an Omnipotent Entity. Anyway, the overall point is that the only way one can have any "physical proof" of God's existence is if one acknowledges that contact and experience of God is beyond the scientific method: it is something for which reason, left by itself, is inadequate--it must be, rather, "reason aided by revelation."

What I came to, at a certain point, was that there is a strict importance in the practice of prayer for anyone making an effort to believe. For (excepting, of course, Rene Descartes) how can you sincerely doubt the existence of someone you "know"? It eventually comes to the point where denying God's existence is equally as absurd as denying the existence of oxygen, which I know--or books, which I know--or my best friend, which I also know.
 
Kant we all...

Why not call it what it is, "reason aided by revelation" = irrationality. With that concession there is nothing a reasonable person can do to change your mind -- you are unreasonable.

Also, a rational person will not accept "proof" from the bible due to its internal inconsistencies. Hardly an acceptable "historical document" in my eyes.
 
Originally posted by Xlock
Kant we all...

Why not call it what it is, "reason aided by revelation" = irrationality. With that concession there is nothing a reasonable person can do to change your mind -- you are unreasonable.

Also, a rational person will not accept "proof" from the bible due to its internal inconsistencies. Hardly an acceptable "historical document" in my eyes.

Why not? Because it is not that; i.e., it is not irrationality. What you're saying only carries weight with the presupposition that "reason" must be the equivalent to a faith in atheists and humanists instead of faith in God and the Church. The problem is, as always, not about whether reason aided by relevation is rational or irrational, but about whether or not it is True. Reason aided by revelation--if it is true--is not irrational unless there is no "reason" involved in the combination; if it is solely revelation, without reason, then it is irrational--nevertheless, just because something happens as a result of irrationality, does that mean that it is not true that it happens? For instance, one day I might be drunk and trip over my feet and fall on my face and find my car keys which I was looking for all day long--would you call my behavior leading to the result of the repossesion of my keys a "rational" activity on my part? But even if revelation is not true, and there is still reason working, it is not an irrational activity if there is a rational outcome; just because I'm is exercising my reason as a means by which to figure out what I'm doing or going to do, whatever the situation, asking for God to shed light on the subject--without knowledge that, oops! God doesn't really exist--doesn't matter: for I am still arriving at the conclusion--it is just that, as I had not realized, I arrived there on my own and without God's assistance. In either case, the rationale is still at work. So if this doesn't cover everything, I guess you're just being dogmatic in saying that "reason aided by revelation = irrationality" and that you don't question that conclusion--but, in your case, I think that it might really be a premise, not a conclusion--makes life easier, doesn't it?

The deeper problem here is that many in modern times have confused "reason" and "truth" with "the simpler explanation." But is the simpler explanation always necessarily true? Sometimes, in fact most of the time, yes. However, most of the time we have this insistence going on that the "physical explanation" of an event refutes the idea that there could be a "spiritual" element; all the scientist is doing is explaining the natural portion of any given event. Nevertheless, I must put in that most scientific explanations seem far too complicated to be a "simpler" one.

"A rational person will not accept 'proof' from the bible due to its internal inconsistencies. Hardly an acceptable 'historical document' in my eyes."

Perhaps you are "rational," and perhaps--since you are obviously an expert on the scriptures, seeing as you already know that it has internal inconsistencies--perhaps you could point these internal inconsistencies out for me. Could you do that? I cannot prove that the history is "true" just as I cannot prove that the history of Rome is true, or the history of the Battle at Bunker Hill or any other such event(s) that is copied down in a book. Nor can I point out to you reasons for disbelieving that the book has inconsistencies unless you're able to show me the accused passages and precisely "how" they are inconsistent. Plus, what is an inconsistency, anyway? This is "inconsistency" as most philosophers have understood it (and I do not take credit for the example; I use it because it is the best I've seen): Walking through a wall-- this is not a contradiction. Walking through wall AND not-walking through a wall AT THE SAME TIME-- THIS is a contradiction. For even if we were to suppose that miracles cannot happen, still we can conceive this miracle in our mind (walking through a wall).
 
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Why not? Because it is not that; i.e., it is not irrationality. What you're saying only carries weight with the presupposition that "reason" must be the equivalent to a faith in atheists and humanists instead of faith in God and the Church.

This is not true -- atheists do not have faith in reason. Faith by definition is a belief in something for which there is no proof. On the other hand, reason is based on proof -- that which has a logical defense. To have faith in reason would be to believe without proof, without rationale, the very process of rational justification and explanation. Therefore one cannot have faith in reason -- they are polar opposites.

The problem is, as always, not about whether reason aided by relevation is rational or irrational, but about whether or not it is True. Reason aided by revelation--if it is true--is not irrational unless there is no "reason" involved in the combination; if it is solely revelation, without reason, then it is irrational--nevertheless, just because something happens as a result of irrationality, does that mean that it is not true that it happens?

I agree, the pursuit of truth is our goal. However, truth is that which is in agreement with fact or reality. And in the case of religion it is a supernatural being, a being outside of physical reality, that must be proven. This proof must be presented in a rational way utilizing reason or it is not valid proof at all.

In addition, you have conceded that "revelation, withouth reason.. is irrational." Given that correct premise, "reason aided by revelation" is in fact irrational. Even if there was one, or even more than one, rational statement made in your undescribed combination, the inclusion of just one irrational (revelational) statement would make the entire processes irrational. For example, early humans observed lightning and came to the conclusion that something must be causing these arcs of light. This is a reasonable observation. However, this observation was unexplained to them so they invented a supernatural "god of lightning" that threw down bolts from the sky when it was angry. This conclusion was irrational, there was no proof of a supernatural influence -- it was simply created by the people as a way to feel better about the unexplained phenomenon. Therefore, the faith-based conclusion that a lightning god existed was irrational despite the original, reasonable observation that something was causing the lightning.

Thus, if there is no fully justifiable explanation based on reason alone then belief in a supernatural being requires faith, that is, irrational belief.


...just because something happens as a result of irrationality, does that mean that it is not true that it happens? For instance, one day I might be drunk and trip over my feet and fall on my face and find my car keys which I was looking for all day long--would you call my behavior leading to the result of the repossesion of my keys a "rational" activity on my part? But even if revelation is not true, and there is still reason working, it is not an irrational activity if there is a rational outcome

The major fallacy here is that events don't occur as a result of either irrationality or rationality. They occur based on nature, on probabilities of the physical world. So no, no rational person would agree with you here. If you state your example in a way that is agreeable to causality, it would be quite different:

'I can't find my keys so I'm going to go get drunk and then hopefully I'll trip over my own feet and fall on my face and happen to see my keys.'

This is definately an irrational thought process, and I would expect that the person to actually come to this solution was already drunk in the first place. Even if the keys were found in this fasion, it does not make the solution reasonable. Therefore, repossesion of the keys in your suggested manner would not be a rational activity, and it is not a rational outcome. I would recommend checking the couch and recruiting the help of a friend.

The deeper problem here is that many in modern times have confused "reason" and "truth" with "the simpler explanation." But is the simpler explanation always necessarily true? Sometimes, in fact most of the time, yes. However, most of the time we have this insistence going on that the "physical explanation" of an event refutes the idea that there could be a "spiritual" element; all the scientist is doing is explaining the natural portion of any given event. Nevertheless, I must put in that most scientific explanations seem far too complicated to be a "simpler" one.

Yes, scientists do explain reality using rational though processes. If a scientist was to tell you the process by which there is rain, evaporation and condensation of water from the earth, then it is fully explained as far as any rational person is concerned. However, if you make the arbitrary statement that 'yes, that sounds reasonable but don't forget the spirtual element -- rain is god's tears when he's crying' then you have just made an irrational addition to a complete logical explanation. Scientists do not assert a "simple explanation" or they would make a claim similar to the religious people of the past -- "god is the cause for everything." In that manner science would have been "completed" thousands of years ago and we would still be living in the caves, struggling to survive. Science is the rational search for truth, the pursuit of knowledge. Religion is the destruction of reason -- blind, irrational belief.

Perhaps you are "rational," and perhaps--since you are obviously an expert on the scriptures, seeing as you already know that it has internal inconsistencies--perhaps you could point these internal inconsistencies out for me. Could you do that?

Yes, I could. One example, what were Jesus's last words?

Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

And the bible is infallible? Many more may be found here
Hundreds of others may be found with a simple google search.

This doesn't even include translation errors such as this about the "virgin birth" from http://www.2think.org/hii/virgin.shtml

"There are two hebrew words usually translated 'virgin' in English. 'Bethulah' means virgin in the sense that we understand it. It was used, for example, in Isaiah 62:5. 'Almah' (the word used in Isaiah 7:14) simply means a young woman. Although it is sometimes used in the sense of a sexually pure woman, this is not it's exclusive usage. The context will usually point out the correct usage.

The confusion arose when the Greek Septuagint used the greek word 'parthenos' to translate Isaiah 7:14. This word, in Greek, does denote a sexually pure woman, and was the inspiration for the gospellers myth of the Virgin birth.

A look at the context of Isaiah 7:14 will quickly reveal that the woman that Isaiah was referring to was probably *already* pregnant, thus pointing out which sense of 'almah' was intended. In any case, the point of Isaiah's prophecy was that before the child reached the age of accountability, both Israel and Syria would be desolated. (A prophecy which was only partly fulfilled, by the way). The use of the word 'virgin' is not germane in Isaiah's prophecy. The 'sign' was the child, not a miraculous conception.

In short, Isaiah's 'sign' was fulfilled in it's own context, hundreds of years before anyone thought to apply it in a different sense. "

And yes, I am aware of the definition of contradiction. There are so many in the bible that I'm surprised that you claim to know it as well.
 
This is not true -- atheists do not have faith in reason. Faith by definition is a belief in something for which there is no proof. On the other hand, reason is based on proof -- that which has a logical defense. To have faith in reason would be to believe without proof, without rationale, the very process of rational justification and explanation. Therefore one cannot have faith in reason -- they are polar opposites.

Your response here seemed to have missed my point. But did bring up an interesting point nonetheless. I beg to differ that--whether atheist or Christian or whatever--faith in something is absolutely first before reason. What one must have faith in is the fact that reason itself is good enough to discern anything at all. What if you're a loon? You would never know...and physical diagnosis doesn't matter: you're in you're own little mad world. In order to use reason at all I must first have faith in the idea that my reason can discover any truths about objective reality at all, or that such a thing as objective reality even exists.

you have conceded that "revelation, withouth reason.. is irrational." Given that correct premise, "reason aided by revelation" is in fact irrational.

I don't think so. Again, just because something is an irrational happenstance does not mean that it is necessarily untrue. I don't think the last statement follows: just because something is "revealed" does not make it some sort of trump card against reason; it rather enforces reason. It's as though you're saying chocolate ceases to be chocolatey just because you add whipped cream.



early humans observed lightning and came to the conclusion that something must be causing these arcs of light. This is a reasonable observation. However, this observation was unexplained to them so they invented a supernatural "god of lightning" that threw down bolts from the sky when it was angry. This conclusion was irrational, there was no proof of a supernatural influence -- it was simply created by the people as a way to feel better about the unexplained phenomenon. Therefore, the faith-based conclusion that a lightning god existed was irrational despite the original, reasonable observation that something was causing the lightning.

Why can't there still be a god of lightning who is causing the physical processes of lightning to occur?


if there is no fully justifiable explanation based on reason alone then belief in a supernatural being requires faith, that is, irrational belief.

I think you are confusing "reason" with "tenets of empirical sciences." Call me an old-timer, but the field of "reasoning" includes all areas of knowledge including metaphysics, ethics, and law. There are many areas of reasoning which have nothing to do with natural sciences, but with theoretical science--e.g., theology, astrophysics. Also I think that, in a certain way, you put "reason" and "proof" in the same category.

Science is the rational search for truth, the pursuit of knowledge. Religion is the destruction of reason -- blind, irrational belief.

I frankly think that that is your opinion, and not necessarily a fact. The kind of religious people you associate with must be truly un-religious if they abandon their reason. Science, yes, is, of course, one of the many forms of man's rational search for truth; as far as being the only one, I beg to differ--not unless you consider every field which claims to know anything about anything else a science...and I suppose you could do that--Aristotle did, after all. Religion is (or it is supposed to be...but fundamentalists have shot that to hell) the fulfillment of reason. Again, anyone who wholly rejects their reason is not being religious; rather they are choosing to be only half-human...if not, then, animal--less than human. The reason behind most failures to understand religion is just that: they don't "understand" it--if they did, they couldn't deny it. For the True Faith is insurmountably reasonable.

what were Jesus's last words?

I don't think this is a good example. Because, honestly, does it really "matter"? Your example is not an inconsistency; it is simply the problem of stories being handed down by word of mouth. Or, in some instances, certain people might have been closer or further away from Jesus and heard different things and arrived at different conclusions about what "exactly" was said. No historical record can be absolutely accurate unless someone is there at every moment transcribing as what might go on in a courtroom.

And blah blah blah, and so on a so forth. Just don't call yourself a "freethinker"--you have far more rigorous doctrines than the Catholic Church could ever conjure up.
 
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Sorry to go off on a tangent, but I want to point out something.

Jesus and his disciples are mostly portrayed as caucasion. But this is strange...........because by being born in jerusalem would make one of middle eastern decent. Jesus would look like a middle easterner. All the images Ive ever seen of Jesus has him portrayed as a caucasion.

An example-

jesus-sacredht.jpg


What else was molded to fit agendas?
 
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