Time Travel is Science Fiction

The crux of the whole matter, is you need to recognise that you are looking into the past, courtesy of the constant finite speed of light.
Do better.

I am not looking into the past, the light from the sun takes time to travel, just like it takes you 5 minutes to travel 5 miles at 60 MPH. Duh? Your ignorance is laughable! Unless it's not ignorance. There are people with motives to change time is science in order to match their tale. They are physicists too, but their thing is faith, not facts. They want some "facts" on their side, so they try desperately to fabricate facts on deception of time.
 
I am not looking into the past, .


Sure you are! 100% sure. You are seeing the light that left the Sun 8.25 minutes ago....or as it was 8.25 minutes ago.
Theoretically the Sun could blow up in my now, now, and I would not see it for 8.25 minutes in my future.
Perhaps you missed early maths schooling and what followed?
But I'm always here to help.
In essence your first lesson needs to be "there is no universal now"
 
↑Time to resurrect the latest professional expert opnion, in light of the nonsensical rubbish that is being posted of late from Farsight and MD.

Billy T said.......
I don't think it is "time travel" any more than other means actually available* to some small extent now that slow one's rate of aging as measured by clocks on earth. Yes conceptually it is possible by accelerating for a few years at the few Gs max the body can tolerate for more than an hour, so you could in principle live to die 200 years by earth's clocks after your birth, but actually being the "traveling twin" to do that probable would cost more than a year of the world's total GDP, so will not be done, even if technically possible.

Much more probable of actually being done is learning the detail of how bears do hibernate for many months and some of that knowledge being applied to humans so they can live to see their great, great grand children and the nature of the world that will exist then. Or an application of that knowledge may be government financed to reduce the food and other cost of colonizing Mars, etc.

In both cases no one is Traveling into a future that does not yet exist. We all are Traveling into future as it becomes the present. But via space ships or suspended animation, one can live longer or "age more slowly" by Earth's clocks.

I have asked you before if you call suspended animation "time travel" - no reply yet, but I'll wait. There is no logical or rational reason I can see /understand why only one of these two methods of slowing the aging process should be called "time travel" and not the other. If you can tell me one, please do.

It is not that the laws of physics do not prohibit time travel (or dozen of the other concepts in science fiction) - it is the simple fact that there is no where to travel too as neither the future or the past exists ANYWHERE now. One once did and the other some day will be our "now." The laws of physics do not prohibit travel to the apex of a sphere. - What prohibits that is that there is nowhere an apex of a sphere to travel to.

* The drugs inducing coma and lowering whole body temperature as used mainly with brain and open heart replacement surgery, which takes most of a day to do.


paddoboy said........
That's your opinion and one in general not shared by most physicists today.
It is a relevant fact despite your objections that .....
TIME TRAVEL IS NOT FORBIDDEN BY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS AND GR:
I have said that many times now, and I'll say it as often as it seems necessary to say...
Theoretically time travel could be achieved by
[1] Time dilation effects as already mentioned.
[2]Alcubierre Drive type of arrangement in line with Einstein's field equations in GR.
[3] Worm hole:
[4] My own speculative scenario is by means of manipulation of the Higgs particle and field, to reflect a perception of "no mass" and so be able to achieve FTL travel.

All difficult, all uncertain, and all beyond present technological capabilities, but all would be achievable by any sufficiently advanced civilisation, as the laws of physics and GR do not forbid it.

The only thing factual in this thread is the title that "time travel is science fiction" is certainly correct at this time in our advancement.
But that could and may change in the near or distant future.


Prof. Alcubierre said:

Hi, thanks for the message.

What "Billy" says is not correct. According to General Relativity, the future and past do exist. In fact, there is no absolute way to define "the present" except at a single point. Simultaneity is relative, it depends on the observer. When we solve the Einstein equations we obtain the whole spacetime, past and future included. We normally call this a "block Universe".

About time travel, it is well known that travelling to the future is possible, essentially because of the time dilation effects. If you travel very fast and come back you will have aged less that the people that stayed behind. Travelling close to light speed for a long time and coming back could allow you to experience a short time (say a few years) and come back when millennia have gone by on Earth. Similarly, gravity also produces time dilation, so you could stay close in orbit to a large black hole for a few years and again come back to find millenia have gone by on Earth.

Travelling to the past is a different matter. There are several ideas that have been proposed within relativity to achieve this:

1) Travelling faster than light. If you could travel faster than light you would be travelling to the past as seen by some observers. You could in principle use this to travel back in time. Hypothetical particles called "tachyons" are supossed to be able to do this, but as far as we know they don't exist. You could certainly use my "warp drive" to do the exact same thing, again assuming it is possible.

2) Wormholes could allow you not just to travel to a distant place, but also back in time. Again, this depends on wormholes existing in the first place, and second on the laws of physics allowing time travel.

The idea of the "Higgs" field makes no sense. It is not a matter of speculating with words, one needs to do the math. As far as I know there is no way to use a Higgs field to travel back in time.

But ... Travelling back in time violates causality, causes a series of logical paradoxes, and means that we loose all predictability. There are good reasons to believe it is therefore impossible. Hawking has argued quite strongly saying that the final laws of physics will probably prohibit time travel to the past. His arguments are very strong, but they are not a proof. Still, my guess is that he is probably right.

Time to resurrect the latest professional expert opnion, in light of the nonsensical rubbish that is being posted of late from Farsight and MD.​
 
Sure you are! 100% sure. You are seeing the light that left the Sun 8.25 minutes ago....or as it was 8.25 minutes ago.


Like I said, it took 8.25 minutes for light to travel from the sun to earth. Are you stupid?

Theoretically the Sun could blow up in my now, now, and I would not see it for 8.25 minutes in my future.

And? You are continuously confirming that absolute time exists. 8.25 minutes of absolute time. The sun doesn't even exist for 8.25 minutes before you know it. 8.25 minutes of unknown absolute time. See?


Perhaps you missed early maths schooling and what followed?

I think you attended the day they taught time, but you never caught on. You never told anyone, did ya? You got away without being able to tell time for how much time now?


But I'm always here to help.
In essence your first lesson needs to be "there is no universal now"

You couldn't help yourself if you tried.
 
Like I said, it took 8.25 minutes for light to travel from the sun to earth. Are you stupid?

Take it easy ol son...You'll have a coronary.
Again the light we receive from the Sun is 8.25 minutes old.......That means we see the Sun as it was 8.25 minutes ago, not as it is now.
I don't believe you are stupid enough not to understand that, but I do believe you are trolling.


And? You are continuously confirming that absolute time exists. 8.25 minutes of absolute time. The sun doesn't even exist for 8.25 minutes before you know it. 8.25 minutes of unknown absolute time. See?

Sit back, take a deep breath, clear your mind of the silly fixation you have about time and now.
Try to keep the finite constant speed of light in mind, and its pretty easy to realise that we actually are seeing the past, and of course that is also the view held by both our peers. Understand???



I think you attended the day they taught time, but you never caught on. You never told anyone, did ya? You got away without being able to tell time for how much time now?
You couldn't help yourself if you tried.

I can see a coronary looming! :)
Would you actually like to reword that again? :)
 
http://plus.maths.org/content/time-travel-allowed

In brief: The laws of physics allow members of an exceedingly advanced civilisation to travel forward in time as fast as they might wish. Backward time travel is another matter; we do not know whether it is allowed by the laws of physics, and the answer is likely controlled by a set of physical laws that we do not yet understand at all well: the laws of quantum gravity. In order for humans to travel forward in time very rapidly, or backward (if allowed at all), we would need technology far far beyond anything we are capable of today.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/Sagan-Time-Travel.html
"Time travel into the indefinite future is consistent with the laws of nature."


The things I do for those less fortunate! :)
 
Take it easy ol son...You'll have a coronary.
Again the light we receive from the Sun is 8.25 minutes old.......That means we see the Sun as it was 8.25 minutes ago, not as it is now.
I don't believe you are stupid enough not to understand that, but I do believe you are trolling.

I gave specific times, 12:00 and 12:08.25. Which now are you speaking about, the 12:08.25 now that we are seeing the 12:00 light? Well like I said, absolute time. That is not looking into the past. At 12:08.25 (now) you see 8.25 minute old light from the sun. If there was a rocket motor attached to the earth and 12:00 the rocket accelerated the earth away from the sun as the sun emitted light, would it take more than 8.25 minutes for the light to reach the earth? How much time would it take?
 
I gave specific times, 12:00 and 12:08.25. Which now are you speaking about, the 12:08.25 now that we are seeing the 12:00 light? Well like I said, absolute time. That is not looking into the past. At 12:08.25 (now) you see 8.25 minute old light from the sun. If there was a rocket attached to the earth and 12:00 the rocket accelerated the earth away from the sun as the sun emitted light, would it take more than 8.25 minutes for the light to reach the earth? How much time would it take?


Let me tell you again.....
THERE IS NO UNIVERSAL NOW!!!!!

Nice to see that you have calmed down some, so i'll attempt to explain it again.
Let's try and explain it this way.....
You are on earth....I'm sitting on the Sun.....
How do we synchronise our clocks?
You send me a message on the "mark"to synchronise my clock at 1200hrs...Good.
I receive that message 8.25 minutes later at 1208.25 hrs
Are you seeing the fault in your "analogy"yet?
 
Let me tell you again.....
THERE IS NO UNIVERSAL NOW!!!!!

If there is no universal now then how do you know it takes 8.25 minutes for light to travel from the sun to earth at 12:00-12:08.25? What time is it on the sun if the light gets here at 12:08.25?
 
http://areeweb.polito.it/ricerca/relgrav/solciclos/gron_d.pdf

Origin, maybe you and any other posters who are interested should get across as it is much more complex than this time travel issue and the results are clear.

Here's a link to one solution (and the calculations) that agrees with Gron on another forum. Not only are the points on the wheel moving at relativistic velocity in x, y + time the axle can be shown to be traveling consistently at the same velocity along the x axis + time (in the axle velocity between events column).

http://www.thephysicsforum.com/spec...elativistic-rolling-wheel-ii-3.html#post12704

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I think it's time for people to start putting up some real information if they know any better.
Very interesting paper, and not something that a layman like me would be expected to understand. Maybe by asking a coulple of questions I can gain some ground toward understanding:
I read much of the paper and skimmed some parts that were over my pay grade. I'm sure I missed the point for the most part, but as I came to the conclusions, #8 raised some questions:

"8. What actually happens when a disk is put into rotation depends upon its elastic properties. A maximally rigid disk, with sound velocity equal to the velocity of light, will in fact contract when its angular velocity is increased.

Doesn't this conclusion refer to a disk rotating at the speed of light, and is that even possible to achieve? And even if it was possible, the gyroscope comes to mind. It is more and more difficult to change the angular velocity of a gyroscope as the rotation of the disk increases. Wouldn't it be impossible to change the angular velocity of a gyroscope that is rotating at the speed of light?
 
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Very interesting paper, and not something that a layman like me would be expected to understand. Maybe by asking a coulple of questions I can gain some ground toward understanding:
I read much of the paper and skimmed some parts that were over my pay grade. I'm sure I missed the point for the most part, but as I came to the conclusions, #8 raised some questions:

"8. What actually happens when a disk is put into rotation depends upon its elastic properties. A maximally rigid disk, with sound velocity equal to the velocity of light, will in fact contract when its angular velocity in increased."

Doesn't this conclusion refer to a disk rotating at the speed of light, and is that even possible to achieve? And even if it was possible, the gyroscope comes to mind. It is more and more difficult to change the angular velocity of a gyroscope as the rotation of the disk increases. Wouldn't it be impossible to change the angular velocity of a gyroscope if it was rotating at the speed of light? There just wouldn't be any way to add more energy to the frame of the rotating disk; it seems to me that changing the angular velocity would require more energy to be applied to the rotating disk to affect such a change in angular velocity.

The speed of light has units of meters and seconds. A rotating disk has units of revolutions and time (1 complete revolution is 1 rotation of any size radius disk.)

So a point on a rotating disk that is 1 meter from the center point of the disk travels a different distance per revolution than a point on the same disk rotating at the same rotational velocity 2 meters away from the center. Force is making sure that happens. If there wasn't enough force to keep the 2 meter point rotating the same rotations as the 1 meter point then the 2 meter point would lag behind, ie it would take more time to complete 1 revolution than the 1 meter point. The 2 meter point traveled less rotations per time than the 1 meter point.

So you can't really refer to a disk rotating at the speed of light unless you point to a specific point on that disk a specific distance away from the axis. A point a greater distance away from the axis on a disk could be traveling a distance per rotation per time, and another point closer to the center is traveling less distance per rotation per time.
 
If there is no universal now then how do you know it takes 8.25 minutes for light to travel from the sun to earth at 12:00-12:08.25? What time is it on the sun if the light gets here at 12:08.25?


Good question. I'm unable to answer it yet, as you have not told me how we synchronise our clocks.......and then we have gravitational time dilation, that dictates a different rate of ticking from my clock compared to yours.
You see the obvious difficulties and paradoxes involved?
 
The speed of light has units of meters and seconds. A rotating disk has units of revolutions and time (1 complete revolution is 1 rotation of any size radius disk.)

So a point on a rotating disk that is 1 meter from the center point of the disk travels a different distance per revolution than a point on the same disk rotating at the same rotational velocity 2 meters away from the center. Force is making sure that happens. If there wasn't enough force to keep the 2 meter point rotating the same rotations as the 1 meter point then the 2 meter point would lag behind, ie it would take more time to complete 1 revolution than the 1 meter point. The 2 meter point traveled less rotations per time than the 1 meter point.

So you can't really refer to a disk rotating at the speed of light unless you point to a specific point on that disk a specific distance away from the axis. A point a greater distance away from the axis on a disk could be traveling a distance per rotation per time, and another point closer to the center is traveling less distance per rotation per time.
True. So I thought that #8 in the conclusion was referring to the outer edge of the disk rotating at the speed of light. My same questions apply.

And BTW, I agree with you on the concept of a universal now outside of the theory of GR, not as part of it.
 
True. So I thought that #8 in the conclusion was referring to the outer edge of the disk rotating at the speed of light. My same questions apply.

The angular velocity increasing in #8 means acceleration. That means a point 1 meter away on the disk is increasing or decreasing its distance traveled per time, not per rotation. Each rotation the 1 meter point travels 6.28 meters to complete 1 revolution.

Time is not a factor in that. 1 complete revolution means 1 complete revolution, whether is takes 1 minute to complete that revolution or whether it takes 13.3 billion years to complete that revolution. Time is not a factor in measuring complete revolutions.

HOW MANY revolutions a disk makes per time is saying something different, however.

A shaft can rotate 27 times in 1 second or 13 minutes.
 
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And BTW, I agree with you on the concept of a universal now outside of the theory of GR, not as part of it.

What concept in regards to a universal now, and the constant finite speed of light do you suggest that matches experiment and observations better the the GR model?
 
Good question. I'm unable to answer it yet, as you have not told me how we synchronise our clocks.......and then we have gravitational time dilation, that dictates a different rate of ticking from my clock compared to yours.
You see the obvious difficulties and paradoxes involved?

Synching clocks has nothing to do with how much time it takes light to travel a specific distance. Light travels 299,792,458 meters in 1 second. Light travels 1 meter in 1/299,792,458 of a second. Light travels 1,582 meters in 1,582/299,792,458 of a second. There is no escaping it, no matter how much you want to.
 
What concept in regards to a universal now, and the constant finite speed of light do you suggest that matches experiment and observations better the the GR model?
I don't intend to go there here in Physics and Math, and you have viewed my various threads in Alternative Theories that hypothesize that the curvature of space time, the quentessential feature of GR, might be interchangeable with a concept of gravitational wave energy density of the medium of space. Go there and I'll explore it with you to your hearts content :).
 
The angular velocity increasing in #8 means acceleration. That means a point 1 meter away on the disk is increasing or decreasing its distance traveled per time, not per rotation. Each rotation the 1 meter point travels 6.28 meters to complete 1 revolution.

Time is no a factor in that. 1 complete revolution means 1 complete revolution, whether is takes 1 minute to complete that revolution or whether it takes 13.3 billion years to complete that revolution. Time is not a factor in measuring complete revolutions.

HOW MANY revolutions a disk makes per time is saying something different, however.

A shaft can rotate 27 times in 1 second or 13 minutes.
I'm referring to the paper in the post that I initially responded to. Did you read it, and do you recognize that #8 is from the conclusion section of that paper? I'm not making it up; I quoted it and asked some questions, and though essentially true, your answers don't seem to address the questions satisfactorily.
 
I don't intend to go there here in Physics and Math, and you have viewed my various threads in Alternative Theories that hypothesize that the curvature of space time, the quentessential feature of GR, might be interchangeable with a concept of gravitational wave energy density of the medium of space. Go there and I'll explore it with you to your hearts content :).


No problems. :)
 
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