Time Travel is Science Fiction

[paddoboy]

unfortunately, your opinion is irrelevant.
.

Aint that the truth!!! [along with a few others of course that come here professing to tell cosmology where and how they are wrong.
Like I said the other day, the down side of forums such as this, is that they are open to any Tom Dick and Harry....or even Farsight, Motor Daddy and constant-theorist to express their irrelevant alternative views that essentially will never make any difference to what accepted professional cosmology accepts.
If they really did have anything at all, of any value, they would not be here....simple as that!

 

[krash661]

You avoid answering questions. Avoiding stuff like that shows a character flaw.

according to whom ?
low level minded society ?

I guess. Along with a clearance is usually a "need to know" requirement. Just because you have a top secret doesn't give you access to anything you damn well please. It means you are trusted to work with those documents. You have no need to know then you don't get to know. Simple as that! I hope you have no need to know, otherwise the info is at risk in your hands. At least as far as I can tell from the way you post on this board.

actually " top secrete " is the 3rd lowest clearance.
the first is confidential, the second is restricted. then it's top secret.
then there are multiple levels above that.
also, you do not understand my previous comments about this, i suggest going back and re-read them.

 

[paddoboy]

A troll telling a troll not to feed a troll? How droll.

You're a poet and you don't know it!

 

[krash661]

Aint that the truth!!! [along with a few others of course that come here professing to tell cosmology where and how they are wrong.
Like I said the other day, the down side of forums such as this, is that they are open to any Tom Dick and Harry....or even Farsight, Motor Daddy and constant-theorist to express their irrelevant alternative views that essentially will never make any difference to what accepted professional cosmology accepts.
If they really did have anything at all, of any value, they would not be here....simple as that!

there are clearance servers, but the typical public does not have access to them.
it's quite different than these public ones.

 

[billvon]

A troll telling a troll not to feed a troll? How droll.

To a troll, the term "troll" generally means "people who disagree with me."

 

[krash661]

To a troll, the term "troll" generally means "people who CORRECT me with accurate/correct physics."

i added my own comment to your words.

 

[Motor Daddy]

according to whom ?
low level minded society ?


actually " top secrete " is the 3rd lowest clearance.
the first is confidential, the second is restricted. then it's top secret.
then there are multiple levels above that.
also, you do not understand my previous comments about this, i suggest going back and re-read them.

Like I said earlier, clueless.

 

[krash661]

Like I said earlier, clueless.

these clearances also have sectors. the clueless part is not understanding i have access to anything below my clearance, anything above, yes it is a need to know.so when i'm given access to higher levels, i may only be able to access certain sectors of that level.
it's actually comical that you pretend to know how the security clearances procedure(s) are.
it's obvious it is you who is clueless and only spewing what you think you may know only from what you have come across.

 

[paddoboy]

Thanks once again tashja...
Unlike our uncredentialed friend and alternative hypothesis pusher, extrordinaire [Farsight] I accept what the professor has said, even on my highly speculative Higg's manipulation scenario.

Obviously, as he said, words are easy, and I am totally unfamiliar with the maths so I will withdraw the Higg's manipulative possibility and relent to the maths as he inferred.


Obviously, as all the links have agreed, About time travel, it is well known that travelling to the future is possible, essentially because of the time dilation effects.

 

[Billy T]

... Obviously, as all the links have agreed, About time travel, it is well known that travelling to the future is possible, essentially because of the time dilation effects.

Not possible if there is no now exiting future to travel to (as is the case) but please expain why you think "time dilation" even helps, much less makes travel into the future possible. What high speed wrt to earth travel makes is slower aging rate as compared to the Earth's clocks (or his 'stay on Earth" twin). Exactly the same thing that suspended animation while staying on earth can do (and probable will be done in 50 or so years* with much greater increase in life spans at much less cost per hour of life extension). It is "life prolongation" not time travel you a you have misnamed it.

You know that time dilation by relative motion is what you observe IN ANY FRAME BUT THE ONE YOU ARE IN, don't you ?

I. e. the twin going into another frame has no "time dilation" only his non-traveling twin see time dilation in the traveling twin's frame. The twin who travels, has all changes, including aging proceeding at normal rate by his clocks.

* Following quote is from same link as quote below:
"Placing astronauts in suspended animation has been proposed as one way for an individual to reach the end of an interstellar or intergalactic journey, avoiding the necessity for a gigantic generation ship"
This is an active, rapidly advancing, funded research area. No one is going to even try to achieve even 0.001% as much life extension via years of the weak acceleration humans can tolerate for more than an hour because each extra minute of life prolongation would cost a million times more than by suspended animation. Google for dozens of links to other experiments. If you want to live to experience the future of 200 years from now suspended animation is the only affordable way to do that - call it "time travel" if you like but it is just life prolongation.

In June 2005 scientists at the University of Pittsburgh's Safar Center for Resuscitation Research announced they had managed to place dogs in suspended animation and bring them back to life, most of them without brain damage, by draining the blood out of the dogs' bodies and injecting a low temperature solution into their circulatory systems, which in turn keeps the bodies alive in stasis. After three hours of being clinically dead, the dogs' blood was returned to their circulatory systems, and the animals were revived by delivering an electric shock to their hearts. The heart started pumping the blood around the frozen body, and the dogs were brought back to life.[3]

On 20 January 2006, doctors from the Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston announced they had placed pigs in suspended animation with a similar technique. The pigs were anaesthetized and major blood loss was induced, along with simulated - via scalpel - severe injuries (e.g. a punctured aorta as might happen in a car accident or shooting). After the pigs lost about half their blood the remaining blood was replaced with a chilled saline solution. As the body temperature reached 10 °C (50 °F) the damaged blood vessel were repaired and the blood was returned.[4] The method was tested 200 times with a 90% success rate.[5]

 

[paddoboy]

Not possible if there is no now exiting future to travel to (as is the case) but please expain why you think "time dilation" even helps, much less makes travel into the future possible.

I've a better idea...You argue that out with the professors...all of them....Alcubierre, Sagan [oops, he's passed on, so you might have to wait until we can nut out the problems and paradoxes with backward time travel] Thorne, Kaku and whatever others I have linked to throughout this thread.

You know that time dilation by relative motion is what you observe IN ANY FRAME BUT THE ONE YOU ARE IN, don't you ?
I. e. the twin going into another frame has no "time dilation" only his non-traveling twin see time dilation in the traveling twin's frame. The twin who travels, has all changes, including aging proceeding at normal rate by his clocks.

You are now being deliberately obtuse, like Farsight is famous for....
The travelling twin has aged 12 months biologically and as ticked off by his clock....
The Earth has aged 230 years in my example, both by the tick of all mechanical clocks, and biologically for any living [now dead] being left behind.

I have answered your hibernation/suspended animation question.
If 100% metabolic suppression can be achieved on a trip measured in 1000 Earth years, then yes, those beings would indeed wake up a 1000 years in the future.
Although the speed of the ship would also need to be used in calculations.

 

[paddoboy]

You know that time dilation by relative motion is what you observe IN ANY FRAME BUT THE ONE YOU ARE IN, don't you ?
I. e. the twin going into another frame has no "time dilation" only his non-traveling twin see time dilation in the traveling twin's frame. The twin who travels, has all changes, including aging proceeding at normal rate by his clocks.

You did forget the fact that all FoR,s are as valid as each other.

 

[Farsight]

Not possible if there is no now exiting future to travel to (as is the case) but please expain why you think "time dilation" even helps, much less makes travel into the future possible. What high speed wrt to earth travel makes is slower aging rate as compared to the Earth's clocks (or his 'stay on Earth" twin). Exactly the same thing that suspended animation while staying on earth can do (and probable will be done in 50 or so years* with much greater increase in life spans at much less cost per hour of life extension). It is "life prolongation" not time travel you a you have misnamed it...

Good stuff Billy. But as you can see those who believe in pseudoscience woo will dismiss all evidence and argument and references and logic that challenges their conviction. If there's anything you might learn from this I'd say it's this: it really is like trying to talking to religious fundamentalists. And that Young Earth Creationists do not believe that the Earth was created six thousand years ago because they're religious, but because they are convictional. Because people are convictional. People want to believe in gee whiz spooky mystic things for which there is no evidence at all, and which make no sense. So much so that when you give them the evidence and sense that shows that their belief is garbage, it's like the shutters are down and there's nobody home.

 

[Farsight]

Oh what's he saying now?

I have answered your hibernation/suspended animation question. If 100% metabolic suppression can be achieved on a trip measured in 1000 Earth years, then yes, those beings would indeed wake up a 1000 years in the future. Although the speed of the ship would also need to be used in calculations.

LOL. And if the speed of the ship is zero? LOL, here's a picture of a "time traveller" for you:

 

[paddoboy]

Oh what's he saying now?

I'm saying what I have always said farsight, and that aligns with what the professional experts are saying.
Like the chinglu's and constant theorist's, you are the one peddling crap.
Your house of cards has collapsed sonny and was always on shaky ground.
How's that TOE going farsight? Don't hear to much of it of late...Gone the way of the Dodo? as will the rest of your crap.

 

[paddoboy]

Because people are convictional. People want to believe in gee whiz spooky mystic things for which there is no evidence at all, and which make no sense. So much so that when you give them the evidence and sense that shows that their belief is garbage, it's like the shutters are down and there's nobody home.

And other people that come to science forums, claiming to all and sundry that they have a ToE and have rewritten 20th/21st century cosmology, are just pathological delusional liars, don't you agree?

 

[LaurieAG]

If the space ship sent out a pulse of light every second based on their clock, then the time between pulses seen by the stationary observer will be one pulse every 230 seconds, not every second.

So if you travel at close to c for one second of your own time then any pulse emitted there and then will travel a distance of 230 light seconds back to the start point? I'm still not getting it.

If you let the ship travel around in a circle with a circumference of 230 ly the turnaround would be redundant and this circles radius would be around 36 ly (r = circumference/(2 * Pi)). The problem can then be remodelled as a relativistically rolling wheel and be looked at from a SR perspective. As the observer and the ship, while in different frames, are both in the same plane for the entire trip, another observer can be placed at a point on a line perpendicular to that plane at the center of the circle of the ships rotation, to observe both. If this observer is at a distance of 2 * Pi * r * c/v away from the other observer along the wheels axis the new observer will be able to receive pulses from both the others over one complete cycle of rotation without using having to use time dilation or shift as the source is traveling in a plane 90 degrees to the observer.

The second observer is at a constant distance of 2 * Pi * r * c/v from the first observer during one complete rotation of the ship and both are stationary relative to each other so how can either of the observer clocks vary?

Consider that the first observer is stationary beside point 1, 0 in the diagram below and this observer and also the ship will always be the same distance away from the new observer during one complete rotation. i.e. photons emitted from both will arrive at the observer at the same time if they were emitted at the same plane time regardless of where the ship was around the circle at the time. The image shows the photon paths created by rotating sources where the observer is at different angles to the plane of rotation. The line designated by A below reflects the observer being 90 degrees to the center of rotation while C shows the observer in the same plane as the first observer and the ship.

I still cannot see how you get 230 years traveled after 1 year for a single rotation as the distance between 1,0 and 1, 4 is 2 * Pi * r c/v after one rotation and, as v is very close to c, we may as well call it 2 * Pi * r . As the circumference of the circle traveled is one ly the radius is actually 0.16 ly for a ship traveling close to c, not 36 ly, I could only see this happening if you were traveling at 230c.

If you are familiar with Øyvind Grøn's paper on relativistic rolling wheels you'll see that he minimises rigidity problems by regarding the wheel as having no thickness so you only need to use the x and y axis (+ time) without z. I have just used the z axis to represent the tilt of the plane of rotation.

 

[theorist-constant12345]

Your opinion counts for naught.
We have scientific observational evidence for time dilation......
But like MD and Farsight, you probably also accept a belief in ghosts and fairies whose probability of existence does not align with the scientific method
I do though believe in Angels, and have observational evidence for there existence....
see....

You obviously have not fully understood what I wrote. I agree to a dilation, but not a dilation of time.
A dilation of timing by different gravitational strengths, the Physics involved and not Invisible Pink Unicorns.

A failure by the Caesium atom to keep a constant rate by displacement of gravity, and not sci-fi.

Place two Caesium clocks in the same reference frame, and no dilation, in another words, place two clocks on the aeroplane in the Keating test.

Or........place one on the ground, one on the plane, run the experiment, swap clocks around to their relative position, run the experiment again, and what do you know, no change in the outcome of running the test twice and swapping them around.

They will cancel each other out.

To formalise it, it is not time slowing down at a greater distance away from a gravitational force, it is the rate of output of the Caesium atom that slows down. Your timing device, not time itself.

Physics involved.

This also shows us, that a gravitational force, drains energy away from matter.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, the equal and opposite reactions are, altitude is equal to less gravity, less altitude is equal to more gravity, less gravity is equal to the Caesium atom slowing down its emitting , more gravity is equal to the Caesium atom, having a faster rate of emitting.
The opposite reactions being the Physics, there is nothing more to it, a change in a constant state by action.
A third observer from a perceived external visual , wonders what all the fuss is, because they record no change in timing.

 

[origin]

So if you travel at close to c for one second of your own time then any pulse emitted there and then will travel a distance of 230 light seconds back to the start point? I'm still not getting it.

The point is that the ship traveling at close to c will be time dilated relative to a 'stationary' frame. So 1 second of ship time will be 230 seconds for the stationary frame. So clearly if the ship is flashing a pulse of light every second at the ships time the stationary frame will see the flashes occurring every 230 seconds.

If you let the ship travel around in a circle with a circumference of 230 ly the turnaround would be redundant and this circles radius would be around 36 ly (r = circumference/(2 * Pi)). The problem can then be remodelled as a relativistically rolling wheel and be looked at from a SR perspective. As the observer and the ship, while in different frames, are both in the same plane for the entire trip, another observer can be placed at a point on a line perpendicular to that plane at the center of the circle of the ships rotation, to observe both. If this observer is at a distance of 2 * Pi * r * c/v away from the other observer along the wheels axis the new observer will be able to receive pulses from both the others over one complete cycle of rotation without using having to use time dilation or shift as the source is traveling in a plane 90 degrees to the observer.

The second observer is at a constant distance of 2 * Pi * r * c/v from the first observer during one complete rotation of the ship and both are stationary relative to each other so how can either of the observer clocks vary?

I am not sure why you are making the problem more complicated.
Since the observers are stationary to each other they are in the same frame and their clocks will run at the same rate and they will read the same time. Both of these observers will see a pulse of light every second that is emitted from their frame. The ship will be emitting a pulse of light every second by the ships clock but both of the stationary observers will see a pulse of light every 230 seconds from the ship.

Consider that the first observer is stationary beside point 1, 0 in the diagram below and this observer and also the ship will always be the same distance away from the new observer during one complete rotation. i.e. photons emitted from both will arrive at the observer at the same time if they were emitted at the same plane time regardless of where the ship was around the circle at the time. The image shows the photon paths created by rotating sources where the observer is at different angles to the plane of rotation. The line designated by A below reflects the observer being 90 degrees to the center of rotation while C shows the observer in the same plane as the first observer and the ship.

I still cannot see how you get 230 years traveled after 1 year for a single rotation as the distance between 1,0 and 1, 4 is 2 * Pi * r c/v after one rotation and, as v is very close to c, we may as well call it 2 * Pi * r . As the circumference of the circle traveled is one ly the radius is actually 0.16 ly for a ship traveling close to c, not 36 ly, I could only see this happening if you were traveling at 230c.

The reason that you think the ship needs to travel at 230c is because you are completely ignoring the effects of time dilation. The stationary observer sees the trip taking 230 years, a person on the ship would see that the trip only takes 1 year due to time dilation. The person on the ship would also say that they only traveled 1 ly due to length contraction.

If you are familiar with Øyvind Grøn's paper on relativistic rolling wheels you'll see that he minimises rigidity problems by regarding the wheel as having no thickness so you only need to use the x and y axis (+ time) without z. I have just used the z axis to represent the tilt of the plane of rotation.

I am not familiar with the paper, so I cannot comment.

 

[OnlyMe]

To formalise it, it is not time slowing down at a greater distance away from a gravitational force, it is the rate of output of the Caesium atom that slows down. Your timing device, not time itself.

The point of time dilation is the assumption that all physical processes change at the same rate relative to velocity (SR.) or location in a gravity well (GR). The problem with confirmation is that within the context of our experience, the rate of change, can only be measured with things like atomic clocks. It has not been proven but a spring wound clock should also slow in exactly the same manner as a cesium clock. The problem is that a spring wound clock is not accurate enough to measure the change.