Time to go on the offensive....

Again your super-stupidity is clearly showing...Human errors and mistakes doesnt disprove God's existence...Because people are divided, that doesnt prove God dont exist.
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Can I just say that your god awful spelling and punctuation points out just how uneducated YOU are? You call us stupid, yet you are the one who doesn't seem to be able to manage a structurally-sound sentance?

And remember one thing, Mr. Whatsupyall, if your god does exist, then he's watching you, and he knows how you feel about all of us. He knows the things you say to us, and how you treat us, your brothers. Take that into account, kid, when you're busy calling us stupid, or, my favorite Moronism of yours, "Super-Stupidity."

JD
 
:rolleyes:

Why does this godawful topic have to come up now? Whatsup is gone. Or is he?

*scowls and snatches up a rifle and combat boots*
 
Originally posted by hshatfield
Are you saying that god punishes us to make us more responsible or something? If god is all powerful, he could make being responsible human nature and no punishment would be necessary. If he is all powerful he could easily achieve the same result with no human suffering.

Your other argument seems to be that god doesn't use all of his power or all of his knowledge. If god could will himself into ignorance then he wouldn't know everything (wouldn't be all knowing). If he can't will himself into ignorance then that is something he can't do (isn't all powerful). That right there is a problem. Were you saying that god willed himself into ignorance so that he could see things play out for his own amusement? I may have read that wrong. Either way, what ever happens in the universe is entirely dependent on the starting conditions (whether god knew the outcome or not). When a person makes a decision, it is nothing more than chemical reactions in their brain. Everything obeys the laws of physics (we don't know all of them). Once you have starting conditions there is only one outcome. We can't predict what is going to happen, because we don't know what all the starting conditions were and we don't know all the laws. If someone knew the position of everything (all the subatomic particles) and all the laws that they obeyed then they could know exactly what would happen. If you think that the exact same starting conditions could produce different outcomes, please explain. I would love to hear about how this could happen. I could very well be wrong.
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Actually, I was playing Devil's advocate. I was trying to see how the pro-God/religious 'camp' sees the world to get a bet handle on how to reason with them. I don't buy it myself.

However, as far as exact starting conditions, always returning the same outcomes, (Calling all Physics Majors!) I believe quantum physics throws a bit of a wrench into that argument. It is my understanding that in quantum physics such outcomes are less predictable. -even with the exact same input- Call it a quirk (a little physics pun there!) of physics.
 
uncertainty

Time to go on the offensive

Originally posted by Jeremy
However, as far as exact starting conditions, always returning the same outcomes, (Calling all Physics Majors!) I believe quantum physics throws a bit of a wrench into that argument. It is my understanding that in quantum physics such outcomes are less predictable. -even with the exact same input.
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Actually, there are several wrenches but none completely upset the cart that God rides upon. The problem with disproving a ‘magical’ creature is it can always miracle its way around any test you might present. Still, here’s what you were getting after.

Chaos theory (mathematics) indicates that within any sufficiently complex system (non-linear and dynamic) minute changes in the initial conditions can cause drastic (but finite) changes in the outcome. Technically, this does not eliminate omniscient prediction, however, as omniscience has, by definition infinite knowledge.

Of course, it is important for us lesser beings as it means that determinism vs free will is actually an irrelevant proposition. We cannot possibly know enough to accurately predict the outcome of any sufficiently complex system.

What you’re probably getting at, however, is Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle which states, “The more precisely the position is determined, the less precisely the momentum is known in this instant, and vice versa.” That is, one can never precisely know both the position and the velocity of a quantum particle.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/dp27un.html

Still, God can always magic his way around any such nuisances. Hawking said it well:

“The uncertainty principle signaled an end to Laplace's dream of a theory of science, a model of the universe that would be completely deterministic: one certainly cannot predict future events exactly if one cannot even measure the present state of the universe precisely! We could still imagine that there is a set of laws that determines events completely for some supernatural being, who could observe the present state of the universe without disturbing it. However, such models of the universe are not of much interest to us ordinary mortals.” - http://ideaplace.org/Chemistry/ChemMisc/HawkingC4.html

~Raithere
 
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