Time to go on the offensive....

Originally posted by Xelios
Because in the Bible it also states God is all loving, a being of pure love, etc. If this were true he would do anything to keep his children from harm. Instead, even when we ask for his help harm still comes to us. So either the Bible is wrong or God simply doesn't exist.
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YOUR SUPER-STUPID...GOD IS ALL LOVING, BUT HUMANS ARENT...DO YOU HAVE A BRAIN?? IM SERIOUS, DO YOU??? ONCE AGAIN IF GOD STOPPED THE MAN FROM MAKING DECISIONS FOR HIMSELF, WHETHER THAT DECISION IS GOOD OR EVIL, THEN THAT MAN WONT BE FREE, MIGHT AS WELL TURN HIM INTO A VEGETABLE....EITHER YOU ARE FREE, OR NOT FREE, BUT WHY ARE YOU BLAIMING GOD FOR THE DECISIONS HUMANS MADE??

ONCE AGAIN KID, IF GOD ATTEMPTS TO STOP MAN FROM DOING WHAT HE WANTS TO DO, THEN GOD WILL BE BREAKING HIS OWN WORDS THAT HE DESIGNED US TO BE FREE, THEN WE WONT BE FREE ANYMORE...DID YOU GET IT SUPER-STUPID KID?


Originally posted by Xelios

I'm not talking about a person like this, I'm talking about a person who rejects the Christian God (maybe a Muslim, for arguements sake) but lives a good life anyway. What then whatsup?
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AGAIN YOUR SUPER-STUPIDITY IS SHOWING, SO SUPER SUPER STUPID...I JUST MENTIONED THAT IF A PERSON IS LIVING THE LIFE OF VIRTUE (AND THAT PERSON IS APPLIED TO BEING A MUSLIM, OR BUDDHIST, OR HINDUISM, ETC.) THEN THAT PERSON IS FOLLOWING WHAT THE BIBLICAL GOD WANTS US TO FOLLOW...BUT IF THAT PERSON IS GREEDY, SELF-CENTERED, STUPID, ETC. THEN THAT PERSON REJECTED THE BIBLICAL GOD WHETHER THAT PERSON CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIAN OR NOT.....DID YOU GET IT KID???

Originally posted by Xelios

I don't think God is necessarily evil, but I do think he has some evil qualities, dispite what the Bible would have you believe. Take the flood for instance, or when Moses (or God, because ultimatly he did it) parted the ocean and then closed the waters back in on the soldiers. A truely loving God would not commit mass murder of his own children in this manner. So again, either the Bible is wrong or God simply doesn't exist.?
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WHAT DO YOU PROPOSE? THAT KILLERS AND THOSE WHO MAKE A SLAVE OUT OF HUMANS SHOULD GO ON UNPUNISHED? ARE YOU A SLAVE OWNER? YOUR STUPID......JUSTICE MUST BE SERVED FOR THOSE WHO DOES EVIL AND DOES HIS FELLOW BROTHERS AND SISTERS WRONG......

Originally posted by Xelios

Sure it does, because you have no way of knowing whether God, Allah, Cthulhu or any other diety is the right one. God could exist, but just as easily so could Allah.
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YOUR REALLY REALLY STUPID.......HUMAN DECISIONS DOESNT PROVE THAT GOD DONT EXIST....JUST BECAUSE I CHOSE TO BEAT A GUY UP, IT DOESNT MEAN GOD DONT EXIST BECAUSE IF GOD EXIST, WHY DIDNT HE STOP ME FROM DOING WHAT I WANT TO DO, IN THAT WAY I WILL HAVE NO FREEDOM ANYMORE.......
YOUR SO STUPID THAT ITS NOT EVEN FUNNY.....

Originally posted by Xelios

Funny, and all this time I thought God existed outside of time. Now you're telling me he lives within time and in a linear way?
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AGAIN YOUR SO STUPID THAT YOU ASK ME A QUESTION, AND WHEN I ANSWER IT YOU CHANGE TOPIC LIKE A STUPID GUY THAT YOU ARE....


NOTE: I AM PUTTING UP WITH YOU BECAUSE MAYBE YOU WILL REALIZE THAT YOU REALLY ARE INCREDIBLY STUPID..........
 
Wow, that whole post was capslocked. Looks like you don't want a reply from me, sobeit. And before you go spouting your mouth over how I'm just giving up because I lost, just remember that I've replied to every one of your arguements that were not capslocked thus far, and I would not hesitate to do the same with this one if you had chosen to keep your maturity level above that of a 12 year old.

Now, if you agree to stop using caps from now on I will respond to this post, but only if you agree.
 
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whatsupyall:

When I first wrote as moderator to ask you to refrain from <i>ad hominem</i> attacks on other posters, I thought you might know what that means. Seeing the quality of your posts of late, however, I now realise that you probably are not aware of the term. Here's a little education for you.

An <b>ad hominem</b> argument is one which attacks a person making an opposing argument rather than attacking the argument itself.

An example close to your heart would be an atheist saying "God doesn't exist because the bible has been shown to be wrong." You could potentially respond to this argument in several ways. You could argue that even if the bible is wrong, that doesn't mean God doesn't exist. Or, you could argue that the atheist has his facts wrong and that the bible is not wrong at all.

An <i>ad hominem</i> response is to say something like "You're just a stupid atheist, kid. What would you know?"

Can you see that <i>ad hominem</i> arguments just don't work to make your point? Even if all atheists are stupid, you must refute their stupid arguments. Simply calling them out for their stupidity doesn't help refute anything they've said. You need to argue the point, not the person.

Given the relatively low standard of ability you have so far displayed in debating people on this forum, I don't expect that you will suddenly change. I expect we'll continue to see from you a lack of respect for alternate views, and you will no doubt learn nothing from this attempt to teach you a fundamental facit of logical argument.

Still, education is never a bad thing, and somebody else may learn from this post even if you can or will not.
 
Originally posted by Voodoo Child
Hello Defender,

Welcome to Sciforums
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Thank you. Actually, I have been browsing these forums for quite some time now; I find the religion forum very interesting, as I enjoy these kinds of debates. Now, let's just keep it that way.
 
free will

whatsupyall,

You don't understand the free will argument (or anything else for that matter). I think I might be able to explain things differently though (not that it you will understand, you don't understand anything). I am an atheist, but I will go along with you for now and say that god exists. I think we can agree the universe. He therefore created the starting conditions for everything. He is all powerful so he could have created the universe any way he wanted to, right? I agree with you that knowing is not doing. God created the universe, that is doing (I know this has nothing to do with free will yet). He created the universe so that humans would come into eventually come into existance. That is what he intended to do, because if he didn't intend to do this he would have created the universe so that humans would have come into existance. Now, you say that humans have free will (they can make choices that god doesn't control). Lets take me for example. I am an atheist and I don't believe in god. When god created the universe he knew that the way he created the universe would cause the human race to come into existance and that I would be born. He knew that I would not believe in him (this isn't why I have no free will, keep reading). I am sure that you will agree that god would rather me believe in him than not believe in him, right. If god wanted me to believe in him he could have created the universe differently, so that the human race would come into existance, but that they would have evolved slightly differently, so that I would be born a different person. I would be a person that would believe in god. Do you understand? Do you know what cause and effect is? God is the first cause. Since he created all the starting conditions and knows exaclty what the result off all the conditions will be, nothing that god didn't intend can happen. If something happened that he didn't want to happen it is because he created to universe so that it would happen. He could have created the universe so that it wouldn't have happened. If he could only create the universe one way (the way it is) he is not all powerful. If he just created it and waited to see what happened, he wouldn't be all knowing. The only possiblity is that everything that happends, god wants to happen.

The other arguments people have been using are valid, but you miss the point of them. If god knows a person will do X is it possible for him to any thing other than X? No, because god can't be wrong. If the person can only do one thing then he doesn't have a choice. If someone has no choice how can they have free will?

I know I have been rude to you, but you deserve it. I was just wondering. How much school have you had? What is your IQ? I will be suprised if it isn't a negative number. I know that you won't understand my argument and will just rant and rave at me in ALL CAPS, but oh well.
 


hshatfield:
Welcome!

A gardener casts a handfull of seeds upon the ground. Some will not thrive. Knowing this does not stop him from planting the garden. Some will flourish.



Xelios:

Have you ever tryed hitting rubber with a hammer? The harder you hit, the more pointless it seems. I admire your determination. I do
 
Jeremy,

That is not a good analogy. The gardener is not all knowing, and doesn't have complete control over the environment and the seeds. Lets say that he was all knowing. Now lets just look at one plant. The gardener can't be wrong. He knows that this plant will not grow. If the plant grows, then the gardener was wrong and that isn't possible. The only thing that can happen is that the plant will not grow. To make the gardener more like god he should be all knowing and have complete control over the garden and the seeds. Then, the only explaination for plants not growing is that the gardener didn't want them to grow. I respect you much more than that idiot, whatsupyall. I won't insult you. I hope what was wrong with you analogy.
 
Sorry about that last sentence. I was trying to type like whatsupyall, but I forgot to use ALL CAPS, so it doesn't look right.
 

hshatfield
I will assume it was the garden analogy you didn't like, I kinda' liked the rubber one myself.

I have sensed a 'rift' in thinking between the two camps I will label as the 'ProRel's (religion advocates) and the 'aggies' (atheists/agnostics). Neither side wants to cross this crevasse. Each side is shouting across the valley. I have yet to hear a really convincing argument against either - a slam dunk if you will.

The ProRel's do not seem to feel that just because God is all powerful, that he necessarily uses all his power. He takes a wait and see attitude. The 'free choice' dogma, or what I like to call 'free to fail' typifies this. Come to think of it, it would be pretty boring if you were so powerful the outcome was controlled, and known before the process took place, wouldn't it? If that was the case why not begin at the end point, it would be a pointless exercise to mindlessly allow a sole to fail, setting up all the parameters in advance and waiting for the known outcome.* Which gets us back to the garden theory. This gives us a reason to allow failure. Albeit at the whim of God, who would really be a cruel so-and-so to sit back and watch the 'misery' show. But that would be his privilege. It could further be argued that this suffering is for our own good, and God's reasons might or might not be revealed to us. He has his own plan, too complex for us mere dumb mortals.

*{unless the process of failure and suffering, is a required part of the process to enlighten us. I'm hitting you for your own good etc....?}


I see both sides standing on their own merits (I do not see either as being easily dismissed) Can anyone bridge this gap in an elegant way. If we really put our heads together, I think we could come up with an argument that would at least persuade ProRel's to open up enough to let some light in. Before this can happen, we must better understand their side.

It seems obvious that religion's ideas are relatively weak. That it is easy to topple them. Much of the religious writings were written for a poorly educated crowd. People are for the most part better educated now. Perhaps this is the soft underbelly to go after. Religious people will quickly dismiss any logical argument against God as silly. An argument quickly dismissed, can't sink in. But ProRel's are always more interested in discussing religion. Since there are many religions, and many are offshoots of others, a side door is nearly always open a bit. (When God closes a door, he opens a window - sorry, couldn't resist that one)

(side note: was 'whatsup' banned? Is he still here, or maybe the CAPS lock button needed servicing? (Just kidding whatsup). As far as someone's IQ is concerned, I do not think it is relevant. You can not win an argument with a child. If someone really is dumb, to insult their intelligence is to insult yourself. Someone's IQ is self evident, especially in some cases...get my drift?)

 
Are you saying that god punishes us to make us more responsible or something? If god is all powerful, he could make being responsible human nature and no punishment would be necessary. If he is all powerful he could easily achieve the same result with no human suffering.

Your other argument seems to be that god doesn't use all of his power or all of his knowledge. If god could will himself into ignorance then he wouldn't know everything (wouldn't be all knowing). If he can't will himself into ignorance then that is something he can't do (isn't all powerful). That right there is a problem. Were you saying that god willed himself into ignorance so that he could see things play out for his own amusement? I may have read that wrong. Either way, what ever happens in the universe is entirely dependent on the starting conditions (whether god knew the outcome or not). When a person makes a decision, it is nothing more than chemical reactions in their brain. Everything obeys the laws of physics (we don't know all of them). Once you have starting conditions there is only one outcome. We can't predict what is going to happen, because we don't know what all the starting conditions were and we don't know all the laws. If someone knew the position of everything (all the subatomic particles) and all the laws that they obeyed then they could know exactly what would happen. If you think that the exact same starting conditions could produce different outcomes, please explain. I would love to hear about how this could happen. I could very well be wrong.

I am just having some fun with whatsupyall. If you read some of his crap, you will see that he doesn't deserve anyone's respect. I know that his IQ is not relevant. I was just curious. I will not disrespect you like that unless you start typing STUPID ATHEIST CHIELJAREN SUDEPR DUPER CHINCE PROEVEN LIE TO KNOW KNOT EZUAL TOO CONTRAL YOUA SRE SO STUIID EYE IS SO SMEART. I know its not very mature, but he makes me laugh.
 
Originally posted by whatsupyall
hahahaha, no you wont, because you lost the argument. But its kewl. I already know that atheist have no stance in their belief...
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Man, St. Peter is going to be reading this stuff back to you verbatim and you are going to be screwed. :D
 
Originally posted by whatsupyall
...to be atheist means to be stupid, just admit it ok?...:)

...If you are stupid, impatient, greedy...

...Do you understand the biblical God? Would you say he is evil? Evil to who? To the stupid? Loving to the faithfull but cruel to stupid kids...

...Again your super-stupidity is clearly showing...

...STUPID....

...THE BELIEFS AND PHILOSOPHY OF ATHEISM IS COMPLETELY STUPID AND IS JUST ANOTHER WAY TO DIVIDE THE HUMAN RACE, THE BEST REMEDY FOR UNITY IS "LOVE" AND ONCE AGAIN IT GOES BACK TO JESUS CHRIST WORDS.................VIRTUES...............
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Okay, first of all I think it is time for a thesaurus. "super-stupidity" does not count as a synonym.

Second, let's talk about dividing the human race. It seems to me that more people have died in the name of God that for any other reason. Delusional people fly planes in to buildings and drive cars full of explosives in to the front gates because they think it is what God wants.

Religion today is the same thing it has been since the beginning of time. It is there to fill in the bits and pieces that we haven't figured out. If science can't fix it and it gets fixed it must be a miracle. What if 2 years later we figure out how to fix it and save a patient under the same ciircumstances? Did we get to perform that miracle? Are you pretty much saying that any time you think God does some work it is a miracle? How do I get that put in my contract at work?

Well if you believe that you are stupid! Super-dee-stupidy! Uber-stupid! HELLA STUPID DUPID WOOPID!!!

:D
 
It is such a shame to see the young mind so tragically destroyed- lying destitute of all ability simply because of a belief so badly conceived, so full of hypocricy, contradiction and stupidity. Admittedly the bible is a great read in the context at historical attitudes, but to drag that into something more is not stupid, not pathetic, not insane- just sad. I really feel a tear in my eye and in my heart for those who have been exploited with this kind of abuse. Either through upbringing beyond their control or "saviour" at a time when they are most mentally fragile. Everything you have been TOLD to believe is on shaky ground- there is nothing within your "book of truth" that cannot be easily and overwhelmingly disputed.

You stole a belief from the jewish people and tried with extreme error to make it your own. You stole pagan festivals, (such as christmas, easter, pentecost), and made them your own. Everything you rely on, everything you believe has been stolen, has been thieved from older cultures and beliefs that have absolutely nothing to do with what you assume them to be truth. You claim "love" and yet do nothing but spread absolute hatred and disgust at everyone who isn't in your 'sect'. I find you abusive, intolerant, and ignorant people with no consideration for humanity or indeed anyone outside of your 'thought-stream'. Ok, that is a generalisation, but one that fits most.

One of your great forefathers sums up the christians better than anyone else:

"The pursuit of knowledge, unless sanctified by a holy mission, is a pagan act, and therefore vile."
Saint Bernard of Clairvauz (1190-1153)

Nothing has changed since then.

You claim jesus is all about love and peace. Let's look at the evidence:

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother..." (Matthew 10:34)

jesus VERY clearly states he's here to set everyone against each other- and frankly it looks like he succeeded. His disciples obviously though were nice people? Let's look at the evidence:

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)

These "disciples" were fucking downright pigs, and were chosen literally because they hatred their own family. THIS is the message you fucking promote. You do the same- in pretence promoting love and yet separating all of mankind into those who goto heaven with you other christians and the rest of us who burn.

I might not speak for everyone, but frankly from my point of view we're better off without you, and hell sounds like a summer camp.

You promote a being of pure evil to that of demi-god, and then class yourself as being monotheistic.

You celebrate festivals of pagan origin, such as christmas, easter, pentecost without even realising how contradictory your own promoting of these festivals is.

The bible itself mentions many other gods: tammuz, marduk, baal, the nephilim, nimrod etc.... You're so lost in your own self righteous shit you can't look beyond it.

Your god is all powerful, all mighty, omnipotent being right?

Wrong.

Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

The geezer can't even drive out people in iron chariots. If he was that damn powerful he would have invented a rocket launcher. You want to dispute this point? Read the damn text. He failed, because he was unable.

Now let's take a quick look at the hypocricy of your almighty damn saviour:

Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire." <-- jesus speech

Matthew 23:17 "Ye fools and blind." <-- jesus speech

Simply put this "saviour" of yours is a retarded asshole burning in the pits of hell. Come on, debate it!

The self centered, self righteous attitudes with which you promote yourselves is quite well summed up here:

"He who begins by loving Christianity better than Truth will proceed by loving his own sect or church better than Christianity, and end by loving himself better than all." Samuel Taylor Coleridge (1772-1834)

Then of course we could discuss the naive, ignorant way in which you assume, (emphasis on ASS), that your religion is the "correct" one. Homer sums this up best:

"What if we chose the wrong religion? We're just making God madder and madder every Sunday."
Homer J. Simpson.

But no... YOU know YOU are right.. just like every other guy from every other religion for the whole of mankinds stay on this planet. However, there are beliefs that do not demote god to such standard whereby he has a direct competitior, whereby he obviously lacks compassion for his creation, whereby he's based not upon real understanding but simple stealing of other peoples faiths and beliefs.

If we get to the very hub of the matter we could state jesus as being a "nothing" simply because he has not fulfilled the prophecies, (but what do you give a shit, it's not like you care what god says). god said you would know this particular messiah by the fulfilled prophecies. Anyone who claimed to be but did not fulfil the prophecies must be regarded as a fals prophet. jesus did not fulfil the prophecies and thus, is a false prophet- so sayeth god. I guess that dont mean shit to you guys because it's obvious you dont give a fuck what god said anyway, (not that there is such being- and certainly not the christian perception).

I found the following on a website and i think it quite well hits the mark:

"Callous, xenophobic, and lacking experience of the larger world, fundamentalists see the devil's hoofprints everywhere, in anything outside of their sheltered, one-dimensional lifestyle."

This quote relates easily to the majority of christians on this forum.

"For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men . . ." (Mark 7:7-8)

It's a make it up as you go scenario- and you guys beat most others at it. I sincerely hope you find whatever you're obviously lacking in life but you probably wont.
 
Sorry, but furthermore, you show by thinking there is a neccesity to use caps in your entire post, that you yourself are in doubt over the shit you believe. One side of your brain is quite clearly fighting with the other. It's about time you settled the dispute, dont you think?
 
Re: Re: Time to go on the offensive....

Originally posted by whatsupyall
Many religions (almost all) are identical to each other, or at least have some form of similarity. This actualy proves God's existence, that He have been attempting to communicate to the human species for quite a while, but humans just couldn't recognize Him, or understand him...?
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__________

Sounds like... a con artist's dream.

Do you walk around with a sign on your back?

I AM A SUCKER. ASK ME FOR MONEY.

All Con Games have certain similarities.

The con man asks himself, "What will this sucker pay me for?"

Religion says, "If I tell this sucker that I can give him eternal life, the keys to another life after he dies, that he will never have to die, he will pay me because I Am A Messenger From God and he can't PROVE that I'm not."

So, how does the con man make the story BELIEVABLE to his victims?

"Folks, I have testimony from seven different eyewitnesses who saw Rabbi Jesus come back from the dead. Seven different eyewitnesses. If I have testimony from seven different eyewitnesses, you must believe in my story with all your heart."

This is a Con Game.

A Scam.

And the Victims buy into it so completely, they would rather die than admit they got taken by a Scam Artist.

You don't know what happens to you after you die.

You don't know that God will give you Eternal Life is you accept one man as your Savior.

But it's a great Scam, isn't it?
 
Originally posted by whatsupyall
.....JESUS IS FAR SMARTER THAN STUPID KIDS LIKE YOU, I RATHER LISTEN TO JESUS PHILOSOPHY THAN STUPID DUMB KIDS LIKE YOU (YES YOU HEARD ME, I SAID "DUMB ATHEISTS")...THANK GOD IM A THEISTS AND HAVE EYES TO SEE, YOU KIDS ARE BLINDED, IN DENIAL OF REALITY, DELUSIONAL........
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__________


This is a great example.

Carl Sagan asked children to develop a Bullshit Detector, using science as a model.

How do we decide whether a story is honest or bullshit?

Well, one way is to find a lot of new recruits that lack the ability to make rational decisions. People who buy into a philosophy without examining it first, and get angry when anyone challenges their beliefs.

Reinforce that personality trait.

Train Christians to get mad whenever an atheist raises questions about a Religion.

Tell them that anyone who disputes your Religious Belief is in denial of reality.

According to Paul (or someone writing as Paul...)

Titus 3:3
For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

(So, this is the type of person that Paul recruited to be the first Gentile Christians: people who were deceived, who spent their lives hating other people. Why? Because they are less likely to question the wisdom of a man bringing them "salvation" or a "promise from God" that includes a reward... a reward AFTER they're dead.)

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

Titus 3:10
Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,

Titus 3:11
knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.


So, anyone who isn't tuned into the right wavelength, anyone who isn't fooled by a man claiming the End of the World is at hand, that man is perverted.

Paul said to give that man a warning, and a second one, and then walk away and never listen to him again.

Hmmm.. a thought just struck me.

whatsupyall is very much like Paul, Peter, and Jesus.

Hurling non-stop insults at anyone who doesn't buy his line.

This is exactly the kind of person Peter would have picked to march into the Temple of Jerusalem and make those moneychangers wish they'd never been born.

unbound.biola.edu


I think it's time for you to grow up.
 
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Riley this is what Christ did in the temple
Zechariah 11:10

10
Then I took my staff "Favor" and snapped it asunder, breaking off the covenant which I had made with all peoples;
11
that day it was broken off. The sheep merchants who were watching me understood that this was the word of the LORD.
12
I said to them, "If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, let it go." And they counted out my wages, thirty pieces of silver.
13
But the LORD said to me, "Throw it in the treasury, the handsome price at which they valued me." So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the treasury in the house of the LORD.
14
Then I snapped asunder my other staff, "Bonds," breaking off the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
 
Okinrus: Did he also say this? Can you extrapolate a meaning?

".. no man can know me, nor my Father, unless they open their book and give a fair chance in honesty and equity to see the seals."
 
No, most people of Jesus' time could not read. I think that was David Koresh impersonating Jesus Christ.
 
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