Thou shalt Not Kill?

C

CHRISCUNNINGHAM

The Ethereal Paradigm
Registered Senior Member
I am reading some wonderful literature written by Sam Harris called Letter to a Christian Nation. And within the first few pages he quotes something that I never knew existed--I haven't parsed the Bible as much as I would like.

I would like to know, however, what's the "meaning" of this passage in the eyes of a Christian? I have a lot to say on the subject, but I'm sure you've heard it all before. Atheists and the Like, I am not really interested in your point of view, because I already know what to expect. Feel free to say it anyway, I guess, as this is an open forum...ha.

Deuteronomy 13
1If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

4Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

5And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

11And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

12If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,

13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

17And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

18When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

I am especially interested on your interpretation of 6-16.

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CHRISCUNNINGHAM said:
Deuteronomy 13
1If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

4Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
Click to expand...


Deuteronomy 21:22 & :23 (New American Standard Bible)
22 "If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree,

23 his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.

Acts 10:39 (New American Standard Bible)
We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.

John 19:31
Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.


Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, " CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--

I know of no scripture removing the curse once a person has been hanged from a tree. The author of Galatians has no scripture to validate his belief that Jesus was anything more than cursed by God.

It seems to me the Israelites were practicing crucifixion before the Romans ever came on the scene.

According to Deuteronomy “he who is hanged is accursed of God”. How does Jesus get around the curse because he was hanged from a tree?


It seems people who follow Jesus have gone after other Gods.
 
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PsychoticEpisode said:
But cows, what did they do? Are cows a metaphor for people of a certain religion that still exists today?:D
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The verse Deuteronomy 13:15 is refering to what is known as a ban. A ban is where everything living within the banned city is put to death. God was making sure the readers understood he meant cows too. The cows were in the wrong place at the wrong time. ;)
 
If I'm not mistaken (and since I'm not on my comp, I don't have the programs to pull up the verses, and original meanings of words), I think the original verse is "Don't murder", not don't kill.

Cause God has no problem with killing, it's unjust killing he's not fond of.

And if he wants to make his followers kill followers of other religions at a certain time, then it's not unjust, according to Christian theology. Because God = Good, and by definition, whatever God does or says, he is right.

Do humans think this is just? Of course not, but that's only because we're too tolerant and we worship pagan idols ;)
 
Yes it does say thou shalt not murder...I realized it right after I already posted the Thread.

But I haven't gotten any Christian responses that I know of.

Is this possible? I mean, I see these other threads with 20+ pages of responses and surely it's not atheists and agnostics arguing with each other? Have they all gone on vacation?

I hope I didn't scare anyone off...I mean I just pulled scripture...
 
Yeah, I've usually found that Christians get awfully quite when I talk about the laws of their religious ancestors. Stone gays to death, kill mediums (people who consult with the dead), blah blah blah.

I mean, you have to remember, these people accept that it was, at a certain time, perfectly fine that their god demanded that it's followers regularly and ritually slaughter animals to appease the god.

If a Christian had sufficient faith, they would, even in this day and age, go on a killing spree for God, if they felt they were called to do so.

And that's what makes religions scary.
 
I know they believe it, that's what so compelling.

And the silence itself is proves to be a voluble resource for their own distaste. There is no doubt about what this passage says to a general reader...

It says: kill anyone, including your loved ones, who puts another god before the God of The Bible. It says to kill them, destroy an entire city of "heretics" and innocent animals, and it REITERATES that it is your duty, as a Christian, as a believer in Christ, as a propsective resident of the Heavenly Paradise above, to listen to God when "he calls upon thee", to KILL your family, your friends, anyone else who stands in the path of your salvation...and yet not a single Christian follower has said anything about it.

So perhaps it is time to make some hasty assumptions? To lay it out flat as I have already attempted to bait them into the thread, admittedly unsuccessful...

I think they don't have anything to say because, it's quoted from scripture, there's not much "new world" parallel to KILLING as in the case of the livestock itself, where we have greatly moved away from an "agricultural" society to a technological/industrial society. There is nothing "ambiguous" about the statement, nothing left for interpretation, nothing needed for "scholarly" study....And surely someone can manipulate the words to mean "kill their idea" or "stone their disbelief with virtue and piety" but no one even had the courage to attempt that.

They simply ignored it as if they weren't one of the 90+ people that read it and didn't know what to say. As if they didn't see it at the top of their threads list for the past 3 days...they cowered in the corner playing dumb...twittling their thumbs and whistling dixie...

I say that if you're not going to go on a "genocide" of heretics and blasphemers, you're too much of a coward to be a true christian...and indeed by NOT doing it you're questioning The Almighty God's Morals, which perhaps is much worse than not believing in him--N'est-ce pas?
 
What that means is that if you want to be a moderate Christian, you have to ignore passages like this. And that means that moderation in religion is a sort of cover for fundamentalism, because all fundamentalists do is take the text at it's face value.
 
Surely...you ignore passages like this, but based on what grounds?

And why would it have been written if the writer was inspired by God but God "didn't mean it that way"? Was it that God "miscommunicated" his Perfect Word to those who wrote it? Is it that He didn't really inspire them at all? Or is it merely the manifestation of a villanious, angry, spiteful God, one that reeks of human inadequacy and IMPERFECTION?

These passages shouldn't be brushed off like a child misusing a word he doesn't know the meaning of...this should be taken with the utmost "scholarly" study theologians and followers themselves, to determine why it exists at all! What function could it possbly serve, in a text on "brotherly love" and Salvation, to say: Kill your family and friends if they do not believe in Me!?
 
"I say that if you're not going to go on a "genocide" of heretics and blasphemers, you're too much of a coward to be a true christian...and indeed by NOT doing it you're questioning The Almighty God's Morals, which perhaps is much worse than not believing in him"

You have to take this in context, as well, though. This is not a decree to Christians of today. Rules have changed, and that's clear. In fact, Jesus himself stopped a crowd from stoning a woman who, by the law, should have been stoned to death. Thus the much-remembered "He who has no sin, cast the first stone." And, though that means Jesus could have killed her (according to the myth), he didn't. He showed compassion,
and if I'm remembering correctly, she became a follower of his.

Now, if a Christian truly believed that they were again called to kill, and they don't, then yeah, they're weak in their "faith".

But yes, the OT reeks of intolerance and genocide. Maybe God, in his infinite wisdom (and finite power), saw that for his religion to thrive, he needed to get his hands dirty. *shrugs*
 
CHRISCUNNINGHAM said:
I am reading some wonderful literature written by Sam Harris called Letter to a Christian Nation. And within the first few pages he quotes something that I never knew existed--I haven't parsed the Bible as much as I would like.

I would like to know, however, what's the "meaning" of this passage in the eyes of a Christian? I have a lot to say on the subject, but I'm sure you've heard it all before. Atheists and the Like, I am not really interested in your point of view, because I already know what to expect. Feel free to say it anyway, I guess, as this is an open forum...ha.

Deuteronomy 13
1If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

4Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

5And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

11And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

12If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,

13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

17And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

18When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

I am especially interested on your interpretation of 6-16.

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It is a call for the Jews to execute people who preach to them to follow any God other than the God of Abraham, Yaveh.

And the verse you especially mentioned:

"16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again."

I don't know why you find this verse especially mentionable. Seems to me one of the more mundane verses in the passage. It simply is what it is. An instruction to destroy the possessions of the people of the city that has been destroyed.

Why did you ask about it?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
LostInThought7 said:
If a Christian had sufficient faith, they would, even in this day and age, go on a killing spree for God, if they felt they were called to do so.

And that's what makes religions scary.
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You’re totally wrong. God's people follow His instructions. When He says one day destroy those people they go out and destroy those people but when he says do not destroy those people but love they enemies they follow Gods instructions until such time as God tells them otherwise.

People who trust in God follow His guidance and when his guidance changes on an issue then they follow that change because they have faith/trust in Him.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
LOL @ why do you ask about verse 16?

And yes, Adstar, that's exactly what I was saying. People worship a god that has instructed it's followers to murder their fellow human being. 1/3 of this world worships this god. Who's going to say when this god (of zealous, convincing "Prophet") reverts back to this act?

It's scary.
 
I first want to commend you on your boldness, adstar. You're a true Christian, whereas so many others fall by the wayside. They were afraid of this post, they knew not what to say. And you stepped up with an calm intrepidty thus unseen. Bravo!

...now...

Adstar said:
It is a call for the Jews to execute people who preach to them to follow any God other than the God of Abraham, Yaveh.

And the verse you especially mentioned:

"16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again."

I don't know why you find this verse especially mentionable. Seems to me one of the more mundane verses in the passage. It simply is what it is. An instruction to destroy the possessions of the people of the city that has been destroyed.

Why did you ask about it?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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16, I did not ask about, in particular. It was actually 6-16. 16 being included because it tells you to "beat a dead horse"...rather redundant is it not?

Despite, my question of the passages in general, was answered almost satisfactorily. I wanted to know what you THINK about it, how you interpret it.

It is clearly a "violent" thing to spill the blood of your children, wife (wives) or friends AT LEAST by today's standards. I don't believe it was something Jesus particularly preach to do either. It would surely be considered "murder" in American court (I would hope anyway) and should surely be lumped in with a violation of the ten commandments. In fact, there is no commandment that says "You can directly disobey any or all of the other commandments in the name of God" So really it shouldn't be warranted...unless you believe the rest of the bible supercedes the commandments, rendering them null and void on all accounts, as they are the smaller part of the two and anything outside of them that is contradictory but written under the inspiration of God gets first priority?

Moreover if one wants to separate "Kill" from "Murder" (which is very difficult to do when one INTENDS to kill someone) even then killing one's parents seems to be a dishonorable thing, leaving our beloved 5th commandment, violated.

So is it your interpretation, adstar, that these things in the selected passage would not be considered "ok" nor pious today?

Or should it be recognized and encouraged by the Big Boys at the Vatican?

What is the MOST important aspect of Salvation and being with the Lord:

Listening to God when when instructions are given or follolwing the Word of God selectively?

Because if the bible IS the word of God rather than WAS the word of God, you're doing a terrible job at being a Christian if you're not out desolating villiages, universities, and churches.
 
I think they define killing as merely killing with no reason (or for your own personal reasons). Killing for God or defense is acceptable.
 
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