those who worship Jesus

[Doreen]

Well most of the time he say 'believe in me' or 'trust me' and something of that sort- all of these imply trusting his message in my view.

But in that quote he says nothing about a 'message'. He is the truth and the life and the way. Not something he gives, but himself. I am not saying you are wrong, but you are making a leap.

I've tried to show that from one follows the other- so yes all 3 are important- but you must recognize the pattern.... Life is found by knowing the Truth, and the Truth can only be known through a way (messenger, etc)

Or the truth is found by living a certain way. I can come up with justifications for making any term primary.

Yes, but that is more information about God... How Jesus lived tells you what God is like and wants- so you are correct but this is still falls under 'knowing God' as in 'God's will"

But the focus is not on teachings or messages but a mode of life. IOW Truth, capital T, is not assertions or ideas or certain claims.

Because he was the prophet at the time- Moses was dead as far as I know at this time? He was the one with the message.. Do you think Noah went and said you must believe in Adam or something? They always talk about themselves because they are the carriers of the message to those people.

You said he said believe in the messengers, plural. I say he referred only to himself. Now you are saying of course he wouldn't refer to the others. See how this is strange. Again, you are making a leap when you say messengers. I mean that's OK, maybe. But it's a leap.

 

[786]

I might have hurried the responses as I was leaving university, so I'll try to make things as clear as possible.

But in that quote he says nothing about a 'message'. He is the truth and the life and the way. Not something he gives, but himself. I am not saying you are wrong, but you are making a leap.

First of all this verse is not in a vacuum, you must read other passages as well to understand something in totality. Also it is not a strange thing to do to claim being that which you give. It is symbolism. Anyhow I'll try to explain again below.

Or the truth is found by living a certain way. I can come up with justifications for making any term primary.

This is clarified in the context as provided below.

But the focus is not on teachings or messages but a mode of life. IOW Truth, capital T, is not assertions or ideas or certain claims.

There is no such thing as 'capital T' in greek. There are other bible's were the 't' is not capitalized so I don't know why you are emphasizing that. Here is an example:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john 14&version=NIV

Anyhow this aspect is also clarified if you read it in context which I'm providing below.

You said he said believe in the messengers, plural. I say he referred only to himself. Now you are saying of course he wouldn't refer to the others. See how this is strange. Again, you are making a leap when you say messengers. I mean that's OK, maybe. But it's a leap.

I think you misunderstood me... I said the passage 'emphasizes' the idea that you must believe in the messengers to get to heaven.. I didn't say that Jesus was saying to believe in 'messengers'- I was saying that this is a reiteration of the same idea. Each messenger was a way, truth, and life for their respective people-- I was using the word 'messengers' to refer to the generalized meaning of the verse which applies to all messengers...

You believe this is a leap? Lets re-examine the verses shall we.. I'll try splitting them up.

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you."

Please note that Jesus is continuously saying the same thing essentially... That is 'trust God' and 'trust me'- but the thing is he actually says it AGAIN 'if it were not so, I would have told you' - here again he's basically saying 'Guys I'm telling you the truth'--- (This is part of the context)

Second thing to note is that Jesus is talking about a 'place' where there are MANY rooms.

"I am going there to prepare a place for you."

Of those many 'rooms' he will prepare 'a place' for 'you' (collective you)- So if 'a place' out of many will be the abode of Jesus and his followers... then what about the other rooms? In my eyes they are the rooms of the other messengers and their followers. Anyhow lets continue.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

So he's preparing a room for his followers but that is so that his followers will be 'where I am'- in other words this room is for Jesus (he will be there) and his followers.

"You know the way to the place where I am going."

So here Jesus is asking them if they know the WAY to 'the place where I am going'.... I would like to emphasize that Jesus will also be 'going' to this place- he isn't that place itself.

Then the disciples reply:

"Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

Thomas thought it was some geographical place so he doesn't know the 'way' (as in physical directions) to this place. This is one of many places where the disciples seem to not understand what Jesus had meant... So Jesus clarifies:

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Now let me remind you the pieces from above.. The passage began with Jesus constantly repeating that 'trust him' and that he really is telling them the truth, and that he will prepare a room (place) for them in heaven (for their Eternal Life), and then he asks them the 'way' to this place and he replies that he himself is the way!

And I will agree with you that the 'way' is actually a 'mode of life' that is what Jesus did was what the 'way' was- this is said further in the passage, which I'll get to.

Again 'truth' which was the beginning of the passage was what he was giving (trust me, trust God, there is a place, 'if it were so I would have told you' this is all information that he is giving and then reaffirming and asking the disciples to trust him that this information is correct and Truth)...

So in light of the passages which provides us the context to the "I am the Way the Truth and Life...." we see... Jesus is the way to the place- and Jesus is telling the Truth about the place (and everything else as is described by comments like 'trust God, and Trust in me'), and that this place is for their Eternal Life....

And for the mode of life Jesus later goes on to say in verse 12 "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing"

Here again he says "I tell you the truth"- why repeat the same thing over and over and over and over again? Did he think the disciples thought he was a liar? The emphasis is again and again to show that what he is saying is from God and is Truth. And he sums up the whole thing in the "I am the Way, the Truth, and Life".... So this verse is really the summation of the what he had told them from the beginning of the chapter to this point.

Again it has the same relationship.. Jesus is the way (to the place), and he is the Truth (you have to believe that what he says is true), and that this 'way' will give you 'life'... This has been clearly shown in the passages, that verse (I am the Way...etc) summarizes everything and puts everything together... It lets the disciples know the correlation between him, his message, and the result of believing in that message.

You are right he is referring himself as 'truth' and 'life'... But isn't that true? Without him being the 'way' there is no way in heck you're going to get to that 'place' (where you will 'live')- So essentially by accepting him as the Way, and believing that his way is the truth, you will attain Eternal Life.. Because he is the way- that is the 'way' is manifest in his life, his actions, his interactions, he is the 'WAY' because he is the Way he also is therefore the Truth and Life because the 'WAY' itself encompasses the truth and leads to life- that is why it is the 'way' in the first place.

Peace be unto you

 

[Adstar]

i looked up the definition of worship because imo many of the typical religious acts of worship today seem very hollow and ceremonial to me. so worship defined is a love, devotion, and an adoration of what is believed to be a deity, and the acts that exemplify that. to me, singing a song, clapping your hands, participating in a ceremony or ritual, or a recitation is not worship.

from what i understand, jesus is our savior, and the way, truth, and the light because he is a catalyst to the perfection of the human race and to our existence. he provides the means to a restored communion with god. one that is currently hindered by sin. this realization, that perfection, eternal life, and communion is attainable, and that currently, there is something inherently wrong with humanity that inhibits it, creates a new vision within an individual that significantly shapes their behavior. that resulting behavior imo is what defines true worship.

Jesus seeks those who will worship him in Spirit.

If a person seeks guidance from Jesus. Thats worshiping Him in Spirit

If one trusts in Jesus. Thats worshiping Him in Spirit

Worship is not a public performance of words and body language. it is about believing and trust in Jesus It is about denying self pride.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Originally Posted by (Q)
I doubt that, Lori. I'm sure if Jesus had one look at you, he'd run for the hills screaming.

Jesus isn't a sociopath like you seem to be. Why are you compelled to be so hateful and nasty? You need help.

Some people have joy in evil. Q enjoys baiting you and does so in the hope of causing hurt, anger or some other kind of negative emotion.

It is a sport to those who love evil. The same spirit of the school bully who gets pleasure out of causing pain.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[ripleofdeath]

If he did or not, we can observe the current status of Christian worship. Perhaps, a better question would be if Jesus were alive today, what would he say about his current status?

good point and one that reminds me of a founding concept, in that to find answers one must learn to ask the right questions,
and...
in those answers one does not find a single fact produced to define a clear set of results but a lesson in the asking defining a suggested method of thought that can be used to interpret a "type" of answer that fits with the next question that is unlocked by the answer to the previous one.

i was raised as an atheist however i expereinced things as i grew and things unfolded for me leaving me no uncertainty what so ever, that there is more to life than simple material existence.
i wonder in some ego scented self satiation that i perceive myself to be a kin to Jesus in the understanding of the message devoid of ego in its conveyance.
Set upon the goal of self un to the world of man in love i deem many things in a different light.
maybe just maybe if Jesus was alive today he/she would say
"i am mortal just like you and you too may attain what i seek to continue to be in your eyes and heart so be un to me that you may liken your deeds and words to spread love in who you choose to be rather than proclaim a goal never reached".
just a thought.