Because after 2000 years Christians still get new converts the same way, a belief in Jesus rising from the dead and they (believers) will rise too. As far as I know Jesus wasn't worshipped until after his death.
those who worship Jesus
- Thread starter ripleofdeath
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Because after 2000 years Christians still get new converts the same way, a belief in Jesus rising from the dead and they (believers) will rise too. As far as I know Jesus wasn't worshipped until after his death.
If he did or not, we can observe the current status of Christian worship. Perhaps, a better question would be if Jesus were alive today, what would he say about his current status?
I doubt that, Lori. I'm sure if Jesus had one look at you, he'd run for the hills screaming.
HA! :roflmao:
Since you asked, it's funny because you're the one that actually needs psychiatric help. Or, haven't enough people already made that crystal clear to you?
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
* * * * NOTE FROM A MODERATOR * * * *
This was the question that opened this thread. It has nothing to do with whether Jesus was a true historical figure, whether religion is valid, or any other Big Questions. It was asked in the context of Christian culture and tradition, and it's an interesting question that speaks to the integrity of Christianity. The question does not even indicate whether Riple believes in Christianity. He's acting as a Bible scholar.
Yes I know that this website is a place of science and normally we're welcome to treat religion with disrespect--something I do every chance I get. But this one subforum is, after all, about religion. So you should cut the religionists some slack and stay in context. If you want to talk trash about religion you've got the Comparative Religion board.
Christians make up one-third of the earth's population, so it wouldn't do us any harm to try to understand the subtleties of what makes them tick.
This is the closest I can think of...
I think this can be taken in a wide variety of ways. For all we know he meant Thomas should do this, that it would be a good spiritual practice for him specifically.
But anyway it does support the idea that to get to God one must focus on Jesus. Worship implies one is reverant, perhaps adoring and generally places oneself lower than the one worshipped - in some way. That word is not there. But hell, given it was supposed to be THE son of God and he is saying
you wanna get to God, ya gotta go through me
worship seems like an applicable verb.
Imagine the doorman of a club saying this. He ain't the owner of the club, but the message is clear, treat me right, see me as important and then you can get in.
Whether or not Jesus told us to, He is God. We are told to worship God, so, yes I do worship Jesus.
I don't think I have ever seen so many Christians on one thread on Sciforums; it's just unusual!
String, in general, Christians here tend to be hated here. We don't flame, sure you could argue that Sandy does, but I disagree. I don't hate people whether or not they agree with me. You have no right to hate someone for doing something to you when you do the exact same thing, the only difference is you are a moderator and we are not.
On Jesus, or his teachings? It would seem to me that Jesus was trying to teach his disciples the message, and wanted them to focus on that- obviously since the messenger is Jesus that puts focus on him as well.
No it doesn't. Jesus when saying that he is the 'one' first told that he is the Truth- the beginning of that seems to me his message. In order to get to God you must know God- and that is you must know the message (Truth) that God has sent, by knowing that then you will have 'Life'- as Jesus said in another place that 'This is Eternal Life that you may know God'-
So lets put it together - The Way, The Truth, The Life
Jesus brought the truth, so he is the way through which you get the truth, and knowing the truth gives you life. Without the way (in other words the truth and life as these are dependent on the way) you can't get to God.
Seems to the emphasis on the fact that people must believe in the messengers of God, otherwise they will not go to heaven.
Similarly at the time of Moses, he was the way the truth and life- and if you rejected his message you also were not going to go to heaven (as he was at the time the only way)
Peace be unto you
No it doesn't. Jesus when saying that he is the 'one' first told that he is the Truth- the beginning of that seems to me his message. In order to get to God you must know God- and that is you must know the message (Truth) that God has sent, by knowing that then you will have 'Life'- as Jesus said in another place that 'This is Eternal Life that you may know God'-
So lets put it together - The Way, The Truth, The Life
Jesus brought the truth, so he is the way through which you get the truth, and knowing the truth gives you life. Without the way (in other words the truth and life as these are dependent on the way) you can't get to God.
Seems to the emphasis on the fact that people must believe in the messengers of God, otherwise they will not go to heaven.
Similarly at the time of Moses, he was the way the truth and life- and if you rejected his message you also were not going to go to heaven (as he was at the time the only way)
Peace be unto you
Many Muslims make similar mistakes. Jesus CLAIMED TO BE GOD! Although he did not say "I am God!"
Let me reference you to a few verses in the Bible:
John ch1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
and
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:6-9
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
If you want more, feel free to PM me for more verses.
This is relevant to the original question because if Jesus is not God then we should not worship Him. It is essential to understand whether or not He is God before we worship Him.
Sure, that's possible. Though it's not the best way to word it if that's the case. There is no mention of teachings and he seems to be putting himself forward as the object to be known.
I think it is a fair interpretation given the way humans have been expected - and had been expected up until that time - to relate to the divine. What Jesus meant, it seems to me, is guesswork.
Well, this is you saying that the first part is the most important, but this is not what he says. You may be right, but then all three may have had equal importance.
Actually this sounds sort of mental to me. As if knowing God is knowing a set of assertions. It seems to me Jesus is saying something more like he is the object of study - the way he lives, the life that is in him - more than some set of truths about God.
But this is me guessing in response to you guessing.
So lets put it together - The Way, The Truth, The Life
He didn't say messengers. He said 'I'.
I didn't know the Jews had a similar conception of heaven.
No, but he said.
If you have seen me, you have seen the father. This is a strong stab at identity.
I am quite interested in HIS claim.... Lets see
Let me reference you to a few verses in the Bible:
First I would like to point out that these are NOT Jesus' words.. These are John's words- so I would hardly call this Jesus's claim... We can say this is John's claim.
Anyhow.
Are there capital and small letters in Greek (which is the manuscript used for this)- I don't think so... So the capital 'G' of God when referring to 'Word was God' can actually be 'Word was god'-
'god' can mean many things- Moses was called god, Satan was called god, Jews were called god....
By the way the same greek word was used for Satan in another place, but that doesn't make him 'God' now does it?
Now let me give you my interpretation..
I would like to invoke the OT, Genesis; "Let there be light, and there was light"
Let there be light- is the command of God, you could say 'Word'.
The command (Word) of God has creative power- for when he says 'Let there be light' there was light... Light 'manifested' just by the command of God.
That is the Word became flesh (manifest)
So In the beginning was the Word- that is true, the Word (command) of God has always been- the Word was with God - that is true the command is with God himself... And the Word was god- that is true- God's word is divine (god).
And the Word was made flesh....
This begs an answer... WHAT made Word into flesh? If the Word was GOD- What MADE God into flesh? So you see interpretating the end as 'god' resolves this.. The Word was 'god' (divine) and that divine Word (Command) was made into flesh- Like "Let there be light, and there was light."
Now if you refer to my interpretation that is the Word was divine like "Let there be light"---- The command is made manifest into 'light'. Similarly, the command of God was made into flesh (manifest) as Jesus- just as the command of "Let there be light" resulted into the making/manifestation/flesh of light.
You believe Jesus was born miraculously correct? This is identifying that miracle.... In order for Jesus to be born without any father all God had to do was say, and it became... Just like Light.
The Word became flesh-- That is the creation of Jesus simply by the means of a Command (Word)...
This is exactly what the Quran says- God says "Be, and it is"- and this is how Jesus's birth is described, as is how Adam was created.
You mind reading the few verses before it because it will leave your interpretation to be not credible at all.
If you read from the beginning it is as follows:
1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.” "
Then it continues with what you quoted... So In heaven there are "MANY ROOMS",, and Jesus will go to and "PREPARE A PLACE".... Well there are MANY rooms Jesus is only going to prepare A (NOT MANY) room for his followers. Whose rooms are the 'other rooms'? And to go to that place the disciples must follow Jesus.
Indeed he is the Way, the Truth, and Life for his followers as was Moses.. Rejecting Jesus would disallow you to enter the room that he prepared- thus he is the only way there.
And as I explained in a previous post.... Jesus being the messenger is the Way,, he is given the Truth by God so that you may know God, so he is also the Truth, and since Jesus said in another place that knowing God is Eternal Life, then it follows that Jesus is also Life.
Since all of this is Jesus- and without knowing God's Truth (his Will?) you can't enter heaven, then to believe in Jesus is mandatory... So indeed for these people, to whom God has sent a prophet, it is required that they believe in him because rejecting the messenger of God is rejecting God himself- this has been true for all prophets- If a US Ambassador came to Pakistan and the President of Pakistan slapped the US Ambassador and sent him back that would be a mean a 'slap to America' because the ambassador is a spokesperson who represents America- just as is a messenger.
So indeed he is the Way, The Truth, and Life. And no one goes to the Father except through Him. (accepting his message)
I'm not interested in out-of-context verses, what I am seeking is appropriate context and supportive evidence to show that your interpretation of the text is supported by the text.
So I would love you to show us what JESUS claimed, John 1:1 is not Jesus speaking and John 14:6 is taken out-of-context by you.
Peace be unto you
Well most of the time he say 'believe in me' or 'trust me' and something of that sort- all of these imply trusting his message in my view.
I've tried to show that from one follows the other- so yes all 3 are important- but you must recognize the pattern.... Life is found by knowing the Truth, and the Truth can only be known through a way (messenger, etc)
Yes, but that is more information about God... How Jesus lived tells you what God is like and wants- so you are correct but this is still falls under 'knowing God' as in 'God's will"
Because he was the prophet at the time- Moses was dead as far as I know at this time? He was the one with the message.. Do you think Noah went and said you must believe in Adam or something? They always talk about themselves because they are the carriers of the message to those people.
They don't.... Heaven can represent 'acceptance', or 'pleasing' God....
Peace be unto you