Kevin,
There is no other way. Because if God did not punish our sins righteously and just "excuse" them, then he would not be perfectly just. And He is. This is an act of love. It is His mercy. We all deserve to go through what Jesus did and more.
Why? Is it because of what adam and eve did? I have trouble with that concept if that is the reason but I'll let you clarify before I jump head long into my postulations.
But since Jesus was sinless, He was able to take all our sin upon himself and destroy it.
How was this 'sin' destroyed by jesus taking a severe beating? Lots of people would have experienced this kind of torture but I don't see how this act voids everyone else's sin.
It needed to happen for God to be just. And it also needed to happen for God to be merciful.
Why was god not just or merciful before? I'm not being pedantic purposefully here; I just don't understand how an event could change god as by definition he would not have needed this event to occur to change.
Keep in mind that God still loves you even though you call him a sick bastard. It was this "Sick Bastardry" that gives you the option of heaven.
I admit to a bit of badgering here, but the main idea still stands. If the christian god is all powerful, why use such a gory event to give us the option of heaven? I mean, he subjects his son to brutality when he could use a much better event as the basis of change. And again I ask what the allure of heaven is? Eternal boredom? I don't want to go to heaven. Simple.
Or maybe, "We would all suffer this and worse if He didn't for us."
How would we suffer? Do you mean hell? Why would a god let people suffer for eternity when it is in his power for them not to?
Would you go through that for somebody else so they might spend eternity with you?
No, because the unfortunate truth is I would get sick of that person and eternity would be unbelievably boring.
Especially if you had the power to get rid of all your suffering, get up, and kick some roman ass?
You're joking right? You go from mercy and love to 'opening a can' on some romans. I don't get it. The people that did this to him would have known no better. It's not easy to change the foundations of your beliefs because one hippy says so.
"Touch me with that nail and God's foot will kick you in the scrawny Roman nads."
Or god could've revealed himself in a way that none of this was needed. People are brought up believing and acting how their 'time' dictates. The romans weren't acting any differently than any other time they crucified a 'criminal'. This whole act seems the act of a desperate man. A last ditch effort by someone who isn't all powerful.
It isn't Gibson's or Jesus' fault that it costs money to make movies. So many people were touched, the movie spread like wildfire.
But that's my point. The movie was
bad. The acting was poor, the voice overs poor. My point was some people are sitting in a production studio laughing all the way to the bank because they were able to manipulate the vast majority of america to see a movie that normally wouldn't be worth renting.
Notice that since this movie was not politically correct enough to make the likes of you happy, Gibson's career in films is undoubtedly over.
I find political correctness to be the bain of society. I'm not sure how this movie falls into political correctness (or out of it) but all I was saying was that
the Passion of the Christ was a bad movie, and I therefore find it sad that even though it was a bad movie, people still found it 'inspiring'. I think it was clever of Gibson to do it, he has obviously made mega quantities of money and by name recognition alone, production studios would by silly not to have him as director of any film. His career is far from over.
Have you ever seen a Jewish or Muslim movie protested against? No, rather they are encouraged. But when Jesus enters the picture, people are all of a sudden offended about anti-semetism. This reeks of satan at work.
I'm not protesting the movie, I'm saying it's a bad movie. Like Bad Boys II was a bad movie. Nothing more. I don't care over religious squabbles about anti-semetism, but at the same time, movies have to be recognised as the powerful medium they are. They are the leading cause of history being distorted. A great example is
Black Hawk Down. The reason all those Somalis were so pissed is because prior to the downing of the Black Hawk, the US had called the religious and warlord leaders of the country to have peace talks at a religious leaders house. When everyone was present, the American forces proceeded to pump missiles into the compound. Devious. Enraging. I heavily disliked this movie because of the way it portrayed the Somali people. Yet my friends who knew no better came out pro-USA, anti-Somali. This sort of portrayal is reckless and damaging. Some christians undoubtedly came out of that movie with very anti-semetic feelings because there are those
sorts of people out there.
Have you ever met a real christian? You are talking to one.
Yes, I have talked and met real christians. Some are my friends. But interestingly the two times in my life when I have been tricked deviously have been because of christians doing what they think is right. Ouch is all I can say.
Being that you refuse to accept Jesus and what He did for you
I
don't and that is what you don't get. In my eyes I'm not refusing anything because there are truths out there that do not stem from christianity. I was brought up with
no idea of jesus or christianity. I learnt things about this world which I accepted long before I came into any real contact with christianity. When I did learn things about christianity they contradicted the things I'd come to accept about the world around me. I kept my opinions to myself because I used to get embarrassed about them, that they might hurt my friends feelings- the overwhelming majority of my friends and class mates were christian. It was never a case of refusal, but just growing up. Christianity makes no more sense to me now than it did. I can understand why people believe, but it's mainly the contradictory behaviour that christians exhibit from what they are supposed to believe which I see as their biggest lie. And I'm not just talking 'sinning' here.
why do you tell me it is stupid?
No, I'm saying christians are stupid for being manipulated in such a way- the movie was bad!?!
It is a shame that the organized church heirarchy has turned you off to Jesus. They aren't Christians. They live in their own little world. Don't pay attention to what they have to say. The pope is not Jesus. The bible is the guide to a real christian's life.
Yes, you're right it was organised religion that scarred me, but the bible contradicts things I had come to accept and contradicts itself as well. Science is not perfect nor does it pretend to be. It was described to me once as a limit to how wrong we are- I don't take it as proof that there is no god, but as a means of understanding things around us. The bible doesn't make any claim other than the fantastical and it is supposed to be perfect. I respect people's choice to follow the bible but it's just not for me. I wish you would respect my choice as well.
I see. You think I don't respect you? I think you make some pretty good arguments.
Lol, thanks
I just want to tell you what I believe, why I believe it is important, and what it means to you. I certainly don't mean to try to be better than you. I respect you enough to share with you the way that you can get into heaven and how you can avoid this place called hell. Listen to what I have to say and make your decision. The difference between you and I is a simple one.
Fair enough and I can respect that. But hopefully if there are such places as heaven and hell, god will respect me and how I have come to be who I am. I don't want to change much about me and I see religion as a backwards step from where I am. I do not mean to slight your beliefs but rather am stating they are not for me. It would take the most profound event to change the blocks that make up who I am and I can change those as easily as I can change the hue of the sun. Time will tell but I'm happy where I am.
Jesus loves you and I the same, but if you deny Him like you are now, when judgement day comes, I will be the one feeling sorry for you.
Please don't be offended at unrequited love
but you have to understand I am not denying anyone. I don't see it that way for myself and neither should you. It is as I explained above, I grew up not knowing. I can't accept your point of view out of distaste for your beliefs, but rather because I can't see where you're coming from. Not one bit.
Actually, you tend to ignore it the most. If you are willing to look at Jesus as a possibility, you can then prove His existence.
Likewise for evolution/natural selection/speciation. I would like to hear your thoughts (briefly) on the evolution, because I believe it highly probable Jesus is a historical figure.
You do need help. We all do. Those who accept help are helped. Those whose noses are stuck up in the air are left in the dark.
I know I need help, but not the help you are offering. I need to learn many things yet, but they have nothing to do with a preference over heaven or hell.
This is a good discussion, keep it up
a
