Theists suggest: Experiment, fake it till you make it - Really??

[wynn]

In another thread a poster is considering to "religiously brainwash" his troubled son in order to get him to behave more normally.
Many posters there have expressed themselves negatively about such an experiment, including some theists.

However, some of us have actually been given this sort of advice by theists. We have been told to "experiment" and to "fake it till you make it".

One could argue that this was advice given to consenting adults or at least to responsible teenagers, and that because of this circumstance, it is not objectionable.

But the fact remains that there are theists who, apparently in all seriousness, advise people to do such things to themselves.


From your religious perspective, is such advice ethical?
Is it sound, regarding religious principles?

 

[Lori_7]

i was one of those theists. but i need to clarify. experiment yes. fake it no.

what i meant was to sincerely ask for help.

it's what i did when i wanted to know if god existed. i didn't know, but i was absolutely sincere in my desire to know one way or another. so yeah, i conducted an experiment, and i achieved results.

i'm just trying to help.

 

[wynn]

i didn't know, but i was absolutely sincere in my desire to know one way or another.

How did you arrive at the point of being "absolutely sincere in your desire to know one way or another"?

How can you be sure that saying you had an "absolutely sincere desire" is not a hindsight idealization of your self-image?

 

[jayleew]

In another thread a poster is considering to "religiously brainwash" his troubled son in order to get him to behave more normally.
Many posters there have expressed themselves negatively about such an experiment, including some theists.

However, some of us have actually been given this sort of advice by theists. We have been told to "experiment" and to "fake it till you make it".

One could argue that this was advice given to consenting adults or at least to responsible teenagers, and that because of this circumstance, it is not objectionable.

But the fact remains that there are theists who, apparently in all seriousness, advise people to do such things to themselves.


From your reliigous perspective, is such advice ethical?
Is it sound, regarding religious principles?

The Catholics have a name for this period of experiment and the end result. It is called the sacrament of Confirmation. It is ethical and supported obviously.

 

[CHRISCUNNINGHAM]

Signal, anything, even PRETENDING to be religious to see if you like it, is okay with theists.

They assume anyone who comes into their church as the "new guy" doesn't believe ANYTHING yet, they are confident that through the church, Jesus and his teachings that eventually they will "come around" because that's what everyone else they know in the church has done.

By "faking it" you're just going in to see...questioning, looking around and absorbing the information...you're not just outright lying and saying as you wipe yourself in the bathroom "I feel God cleansing me now, this is great!" I don't think anyone would say to do that...but to check it out with an open and inquisitive eye, I am sure theists encourage that more than anything...most of them are pretending to believe half the time anyway, when its best for them.

What is unethical about "pretending" its okay, and coming to realize, it is? God knows the fakers from the sincere anyway, so they'd only be lying to people that don't count...

 

[NMSquirrel]

well..not to get into a serious fight..

but i think there is some misunderstandings on this issue..

i think the topic is more of a how is it acceptable for a christian to manipulate others to attend church..

too many churches are only interested in increasing their numbers (the church with the most ppl wins) to that end they will encourage advice that brings ppl into the fold..

there is some logic in the 'try before you buy' scenario..

i mean between 'try before you buy' and 'fake it till you make it'
both say attend church whether you believe or not..i think the first alludes to a shorter trial than the latter..there is info/understanding that you get from churches that you cannot get by just 'popping in' whenever you feel like it..only time can increase certain understandings..i think that is where the 'fake it till you make it' comes from..not so much deceive ppl till you understand as it is a be patient, understanding will come with time..

when i first started going to church i did not believe as strongly as i do today,i had a sense of god but it didn't line up with what the churches taught..at least on the surface..as time went by and i learned more of what the church meant, i began to see why it didn't line up, i questioned..this is how i learned what indoctrination was (didn't know the word but the ideal), asked too many question that they didn't have answers to, because they were indoctrinated to answer only certain types of questions..(pissed off alot of ppl cause of this)

anyway..i think i lost my point..

 

[Lori_7]

How did you arrive at the point of being "absolutely sincere in your desire to know one way or another"?

well, theoretically, can you think of more important and impactive question to want to find an answer to? the world will tell you "yeah sure, there are plenty". i had an abortion. and i had all of the world's answers, and buy in, and reasons why it was a right thing to do, but inside i had all of this conflict that i couldn't explain, and that made me want to know, no matter what that meant for me.

honestly, i have always abhorred religion. the thought of dressing up and going to church and shaking hands with all the plastic do-gooders made me want to vomit. i drank, i smoked, i was a slut, but i just had to know.

How can you be sure that saying you had an "absolutely sincere desire" is not a hindsight idealization of your self-image?

humility has a way of making you self-aware. it strips the facades. from what i just told you, does it sound like i'm idealizing my self-image?

 

[NMSquirrel]

i drank, i smoked, i was a slut,

past tense? what bar do you hang out in?

 

[Lori_7]

past tense? what bar do you hang out in?

i do still drink and smoke unfortunately, but we did conquer the slut thing thank god.

 

[NMSquirrel]

i do still drink and smoke unfortunately, but we did conquer the slut thing thank god.

me and my daughter have been trying to quit smoking..although not very effectively..i think the term co-dependent applies..whenever i am set to not smoke she brings cigs in..and vice versa..

 

[Lori_7]

me and my daughter have been trying to quit smoking..although not very effectively..i think the term co-dependent applies..whenever i am set to not smoke she brings cigs in..and vice versa..

*kicking myself in the ass*

i quit for 4 years. it was a "side-effect" of all of that weird shit that happened to me in 2005. i didn't even have a withdrawal, and that was after a pack a day for about 20 years. i never thought i'd be able to quit; it was a miracle.

and then i went to new orleans, and after a good 16 hours of drinking, decided to dabble.

and then i moved in with my mom while my house was being remodeled. she was handing them over like candy.

i'm not really looking for another miracle. *sigh/puff combo*

 

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

But the fact remains that there are theists who, apparently in all seriousness, advise people to do such things to themselves.

But doesn't mean anything.
Where is the authoritative scriptoral injunction, that validates this practice?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

From your religious perspective, is such advice ethical?
Is it sound, regarding religious principles?

I'm not sure that it is ethical, as the intention is to decieve.
But such deception can still lead to curiosity which can lead to deeper analytical study, and experiment. And as such one may arrive at a positive conclusion.

jan.

 

[wynn]

well, theoretically, can you think of more important and impactive question to want to find an answer to?

Hindsight is always 20/20 they say ...

humility has a way of making you self-aware. it strips the facades.

Do you mean "humiliation" here, not "humility"?
If not, then you're just stating a truism ...

from what i just told you, does it sound like i'm idealizing my self-image?

Oh yes.

If depravity and hardship were conducive to sincerity, then prisons, hospitals and slums would be full of enlightened people ...

In all the spiritual traditions I know, absolute sincerity is something that one develops toward the end of the path, not at the beginning.

 

[SolusCado]

In another thread a poster is considering to "religiously brainwash" his troubled son in order to get him to behave more normally.
Many posters there have expressed themselves negatively about such an experiment, including some theists.

Not surprisingly. A concerted attempt to brainwash does indeed carry the inherent assumption that the person doing the brainwashing doesn't believe what they are teaching, which makes it a form of dishonesty. I would hope MOST theists would condemn this.

However, some of us have actually been given this sort of advice by theists. We have been told to "experiment" and to "fake it till you make it".

One could argue that this was advice given to consenting adults or at least to responsible teenagers, and that because of this circumstance, it is not objectionable.

But the fact remains that there are theists who, apparently in all seriousness, advise people to do such things to themselves.


From your religious perspective, is such advice ethical?
Is it sound, regarding religious principles?

Since I wasn't the one to make the statements, I cannot even pretend to know what they were thinking, but I CAN reply with the advice I have given others. It will likely echo many of the other comments posted thus far.

Humility is key. No one every "finds God" without humility. God is not your personal genie. He doesn't show up every time you demand it (again, humility is key), and he doesn't exist to make you feel better, to improve your life, or to somehow give you strength to get through the "tough times". The Bible says that we were created to serve HIM. Again - there is that thread of humility. Jesus of course came along and taught us many more things that centered around loving one another and not judging others (there's that humility again).

So, what does it really mean to "seek God", or "find Faith". It is a search, a willingness, to let go of your preconceptions and trust in some external entity to lead you to "the truth" (what that is would depend on the preconceptions you are letting go of I think). When the humility is there, and a genuine desire to know God exists, His presence will be revealed.

Without going into further detail (I did get a little off track there), to answer your question, what people MAY be TRYING to say is that you have to let go of yourself and genuinely seek God - without that leap of faith you will never find him.

Regarding that post... I read the thread a couple days ago as well, and was shocked by the OP, but didn't have the energy to take on all the corrections of bad information flowing around in there.

 

[wynn]

But the fact remains that there are theists who, apparently in all seriousness, advise people to do such things to themselves.

But doesn't mean anything.

How doesn't it??

Where is the authoritative scriptoral injunction, that validates this practice?

Who knows? My point is that an outsider/beginner constitutionally cannot know this. The theist can always say "This scripture supports what I said, but if you don't see it, this is simply because you are lacking proper knowledge" - this is impossible to object, unless one presumes higher knowledge (presuming such is a mark of vanity).

 

[wynn]

Without going into further detail (I did get a little off track there), to answer your question, what people MAY be TRYING to say is that you have to let go of yourself and genuinely seek God - without that leap of faith you will never find him.

That is basically a truism again.
But what "let go of yourself", "genuinely", "seek" and "God" mean is what is at stake.

 

[SolusCado]

That is basically a truism again.
But what "let go of yourself", "genuinely", "seek" and "God" mean is what is at stake.

I'm just not sure what you are saying here. Care to rephrase? (I have a cold today, and my ability to follow subject threads may be somewhat impaired. )

 

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

How doesn't it??

Because you needn't be a theist to say it, or, to be believed.
Anyone can say it.

Who knows? My point is that an outsider/beginner constitutionally cannot know this. The theist can always say "This scripture supports what I said, but if you don't see it, this is simply because you are lacking proper knowledge" - this is impossible to object, unless one presumes higher knowledge (presuming such is a mark of vanity).

What exactly did you mean by this?

From your religious perspective, is such advice ethical?
Is it sound, regarding religious principles?

jan.

 

[wynn]

I'm just not sure what you are saying here. Care to rephrase? (I have a cold today, and my ability to follow subject threads may be somewhat impaired. )

For example, people say "You should build on a good foundation". Well, obviously.
But what is not obvious what that "good foundation" is, in some practical instance.

Some Christian proselytizers use this argument, saying one "ought to build on a good foundation" and then talk about what a good foundation does. Nobody can object that, it's self-evident, it's a truism.
But from that alone, it does not follow that their particular brand of Christianity is that good foundation.

Nobody will disagree that in order to find God, one has to be honest. But what, in particular, it means to be honest, is another matter.