Theists must be the ones to provide proof, not atheists

Oh yes, fuzzy pink elephants are all the rage!!

*hugs elephant and wonders how the hell discussions about god could degenerate into this*

I'll name mine Whatmuscles. :D


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There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
 
whatsupmuscle:

Atheist: God is a myth.
Theist: Prove to me that God is a myth.
Atheist: I don't need to, you need to prove to me that God does exist.

You've got it backwards. Allow me to illustrate...

We meet on a road, travelling opposite directions. I, in all my years of life, have never EVER heard of this God concept and am completely ignorant as to the idea of religion.

You know of religion, the idea of God, and believe all that jazz.

We pass, and I say to you "God is a myth!"

What's wrong with that picture?
 
What's wrong? The fact that there could be a society which had never heard of "all that jazz". Something close to 98% (an A+!! :D) believes in some sort of superior being or religious principle. I doubt if there is such a society that has never heard of the notion.

Either whatmuscles hasn't gotten here yet or he has nothing to say in his defense.


__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
 
Oh I'm sure he'll put in an appearance, he's probably just busy willfully ignoring facts and logic somewhere else at the moment. :)
 
I'm still waiting for Whatsupyall and Inspector to respond to me thread "My god is real". I guess they can't...
 
*snuggles up to fuzzy pink elephant, named whatmuscles*

Mmmgrmmmph. Sigh...


__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
 
Thought this might be of interest ...

The Dragon In My Garage

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"

Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.
"Where's the dragon?" you ask.
"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."
You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.
"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floates in the air."
Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.
"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."
You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.
"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick."

And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

The only thing you've really learned from my insistence that there's a dragon in my garage is that something funny is going on inside my head. You'd wonder, if no physical tests apply, what convinced me. The possibility that it was a dream or a hallucination would certainly enter your mind. But then, why am I taking it so seriously? Maybe I need help. At the least, maybe I've seriously underestimated human fallibility.

Imagine that, despite none of the tests being successful, you wish to be scrupulously open-minded. So you don't outright reject the notion that there's a fire-breathing dragon in my garage. You merely put it on hold. Present evidence is strongly against it, but if a new body of data emerge you're prepared to examine it and see if it convinces you. Surely it's unfair of me to be offended at not being believed; or to criticize you for being stodgy and unimaginative-- merely because you rendered the Scottish verdict of "not proved."

Imagine that things had gone otherwise. The dragon is invisible, all right, but footprints are being made in the flour as you watch. Your infrared detector reads off-scale. The spray paint reveals a jagged crest bobbing in the air before you. No matter how skeptical you might have been about the existence of dragons--to say nothing about invisible ones--you must now acknowledge that there's something here, and that in a preliminary way it's consistent with an invisible, fire-breathing dragon.

Now another scenario: Suppose it's not just me. Suppose that several people of your acquaintance, including people who you're pretty sure don't know each other, all tell you that they have dragons in their garages--but in every case the evidence is maddeningly elusive. All of us admit we're disturbed at being gripped by so odd a conviction so ill-supported by the physical evidence. None of us is a lunatic. We speculate about what it would mean if invisible dragons were really hiding out in garages all over the world, with us humans just catching on. I'd rather it not be true, I tell you. But maybe all those ancient European and Chinese myths about dragons weren't myths at all.

Gratifyingly, some dragon-size footprints in the flour are now reported. But they're never made when a skeptic is looking. An alternative explanation presents itself. On close examination it seems clear that the footprints could have been faked. Another dragon enthusiast shows up with a burnt finger and attributes it to a rare physical manifestation of the dragon's fiery breath. But again, other possibilities exist. We understand that there are other ways to burn fingers besides the breath of invisible dragons. Such "evidence"--no matter how important the dragon advocates consider it--is far from compelling. Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.

Pgs. 171-173 The Demon-Haunted World: Science As A Candle In the Dark by Carl Sagan.
 
Hey this could be a cool new religion. I worship the Dragon in my Garage!! :D :D :D
Sorry I couldn't resist. First the purple potato king and now this...

Seriously, though, that kind of relates to my belief that reality only exists in the mind. If you never get any stimulus from, say, a bully boy who lives in an obscure pacific isle, if you've never even thought that he exists, as far as you're concerned the boy doesn't exist to you. If you get stimuli of fuzzy pink elephants, then as far as you're concerned that doggone well counts as reality to you. Though I usually try not to tell people about my pet fuzzy pink elephant because it would be to my advantage not to end up in a mental institute.


__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
 
Ah, there's the rub....

Just because something exists in your mind doesn't mean it exists in reality.
 
Anything outside of mind or stimuli is not reality. It's not there. Anything inside of mind or stimuli is reality. It's there.

At least to my view.


__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
 
The rub? When something that you've never thought about gives off some stimuli or you start thinking about it, it exists then. Just my personal view here, but I'm willing to defend it.

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
 
What about if you are on hallucinogens? Just because you perceive the walls as actually melting doesn't mean the melt in ABSOLUTE reality.
 
Theist: God exists.
Atheist: Prove to me that God exists.
Theist: I don't need to, you need to prove to me that God doesn't exist.

Theists CANNOT do this.


Did you right the rule books on what Theists can and cant do? I dont think so.

I think that a theist can and should ask for proof that god doesnt exist. And I think that a atheist should always ask for evidence to support god. And vice versa.

The only way your ever going to find out the truth is if you ask each other questions.

Give me proof that god DOESNT exist.

Give me proof that god DOES exist.
 
It's not possible to prove or disprove God's existance until he decideds to pay us a visit, so what's the point of argueing?
 
whatsupyall

narrow minded atheists talking to another narrow
minded atheists; you guys need education...
Do you feel that this bible quote doesn't apply to you?

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way
you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure
you use, it will be measured to you. -Matthew 7:1-2
 
I say, what's the difference between "absolute" reality and what you get from hallucinogens? I say, what IS "absolute" reality and what you perceive/think? I'd say nothing. That's the heart of my little stand here.

You can't talk about "absolute" reality. The concept is dumb. For something to exist for you, YOU have to receive stimuli from it or think about it. IF you take hallucinogens? Then the pink elephants dancing in front of you damn well exist for you.

Good one, whatsup!! I continue to gape at your godly intelligence and saintliness, and wonder why I shouldn't fall at your feet and lick your boots. Maybe all atheists should. You amaze me, catsupmuscles.


__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
 
He's verbally destroyed us...

What goes on in the mind might as well be reality, for you're not able to see "reality" any way else... the only standard of which is reality is your own.
 
Who's verbally destroyed us? :confused:

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
 
CC

I think that a theist can and should ask for proof that god doesnt exist.

That's not the way it works. That line of reasoning can therefore be used for any claim. In other words, one can claim anything exists and then ask others to disprove it. Hence, we see claims of pink elephants and purple dragons representative of that proof.

That is the main reason why claimants must prove their claim, not the other way round.

As well, would an atheist ever ask for proof that gods existed if theists did not make the claim gods did exist in the first place ?
 
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