Why would the universe have begun on it's own?
The question "why would there be a creator" does not make sense. Why are there dogs? I don't know, but there are.
Theists and atheists: try to persuade me!
- Thread starter Norsefire
- Start date
Why would the universe have begun on it's own?
The question "why would there be a creator" does not make sense. Why are there dogs? I don't know, but there are.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Dogs arose in an already existent universe.
To assert that something predates existence is completely illogical.
It's like me claiming I created [insert whatever] before I was born.
No, it'd be after you were born. If there is a Creator, he'd obviously exist within his own "universe" or existence.
It'd be more like you creating something after you were born, which is not illogical.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Oh, so this creator created the universe only when the universe was already there
His universe. Our universe would be the product of his actions.
In a similar manner as if we Humans created a universe, we create one, but we already have one of our own which in turn had a beginning.
I am simply saying, the concept of a creator (when I say creation, I am not referring to traditional Creationism) should not be excluded. As of now, we have absolutely nothing to suggest either natural beginning or creation. Both are on the table as the only possibilities and equally probable or at least reasonable.
Or, for all we know, both atheists and theists are wrong; for all we know, it's something we'll never even imagine. Who knows?
The same could be said about nature.
1) Reality is eternal. There done.
2) Disprove God is Smurfette
3) Disprove the existence of Xenu.
As for #2, although it's not possible to disprove God is Smurfette, why would you bother believing She is? And while people DO think Xenu exists, just because it's not possible to disprove Xenu .... do you really want to waste your time???
MII
2) Disprove God is Smurfette
3) Disprove the existence of Xenu.
As for #2, although it's not possible to disprove God is Smurfette, why would you bother believing She is? And while people DO think Xenu exists, just because it's not possible to disprove Xenu .... do you really want to waste your time???
MII
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Enmos
Valued Senior Member
So God created our sub universe but already lived in a higher universe himself, who created this higher universe ?
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
No.. something could have always been.
The burden of proof lies solely with the theists even if an atheist says "gods are all fictional".
I can say santa does not exist, mermaids do no exist, leprechauns do not exist, the tooth fairy does not exist and nobody would ever even consider saying that I had some burden of proof - to provide evidence for the non existence of those entities.
I can likewise say exactly the same thing with 4,999 gods. I can happily say zeus does not exist, osiris does not exist, marduk does not exist, abellio does not exist and again nobody would ever even consider saying that I had some burden of proof - to provide evidence for the non existence of those entities.
But with their god they consider it different - simply because they believe it exists. It is as foolish as all the aforementioned entities. It doesn't exist.
No need.
Regards,
A paradox. However, a paradox shared equally by nature.
I do not think it is that simple. If indeed our universe was created by an intelligent being(s), their universe could've been made naturally.
Or ours is natural, and the ones WE create would fit the description of creation.
No, not logically.
Snake, you are referring to scripture. Yes, you can say all of those deities do not exist. However, I am speaking of concept: all of those deities share the same concept. The concept itself, is not ridiculous or illogical.
God can no more be proved or disproved then the concept of an Invisible Flying Spaghetti Monster, if such a thing existed but due to it's invisibility had never been found does it exist? God works along the same principle if there were ancient texts about said flying spaghetti monster telling of it's incredible deeds would we not believe in it?
You're making the same ignorant mistake all atheists make: stop making specifics!
I am saying a Creator. That is it. No specifics, no scriptures, none of that. A creator. I am not speaking of details or identity. Only a creator. Nothing else. Do you get it? Got it? Good?
And please tell me what of THAT is comparable to unicorns or a giant spaghetti monster.
It's absolutely so annoying when people can't quite understand what I am saying.
I am saying a Creator. That is it. No specifics, no scriptures, none of that. A creator. I am not speaking of details or identity. Only a creator. Nothing else. Do you get it? Got it? Good?
And please tell me what of THAT is comparable to unicorns or a giant spaghetti monster.
It's absolutely so annoying when people can't quite understand what I am saying.
Then i tend to agree with an earlier poster if all you want is to know whether or not someone was there to knock over the first domino there is truly no purpose to this thread. Whether or not the big bang was caused naturally or not makes no difference as no one believes in a deity for that reason
However, it is the pursuit of knowledge. Technically there's no reason to even bother figuring out how the universe began, but people do for the pursuit of knowledge and answers to great mysteries.
And so, the concept of "creation" (not in a religious sense, i.e, not creationism) is not ridiculous. The problem is there is absolutely NO way of knowing whether or not the universe was created or if it began by means other than intention (naturally)
Of course, I am not suggesting this creator has to be some magical being. It could be a scientist in a lab coat, and we are an experiment (our universe)
However that is mere speculation: all I can say for sure is that the concept of a creator, and natural beginning, are, to me, both very open possibilities and there is of yet no reason to lean either way.
Then i suppose we could even go as far to say that The Matrix was right so far as we know this world could have been created by another race from another universe or, I can't believe i'm saying this, Horton Hears A Who could have gotten it right and we are but i small spec in a larger universe and so long as we don't know how the universe was created we can never know if the universe is even REAL... What is real is it something you can see, something you can touch, or taste or smell? Then isn't real just a series of electrical signals sent to your brain?
It is true that reality is only as you can sense it. Therefore, yes, I suppose it is somewhat possible (though I'd say unlikely) that "reality" is an illusion.
What 'concept' is that? From your posts I gather that the 'concept' in question is "a creator" but, with all due respect, if you don't get anymore specific than that then there is simply nothing to talk about.
A creator? Seemingly you don't mean some natural event but some intelligent entity. I get this from your statement:
"The problem is there is absolutely NO way of knowing whether or not the universe was created or if it began by means other than intention (naturally)"
Clearly from your above statement, when you say "created" you refer to some intelligent entity. As such further defining of said entity is required else the conversation is pointless.
Regards,