Theist. Would you give up your moral sense?

Greatest I am

Greatest I am

Valued Senior Member
Would you give up your moral sense?

A moral sense is developed with the knowledge of good and evil.

Ask any man if he is a better man with a moral sense or not.
He will answer that it is better for man to have a moral sense.
In other words, if given that same commandment by God today, man would be all that he can be by NOT obeying a command that basically keeps man as bright as a cow without a moral sense. To not reach out for the knowledge of good and evil would be wrong and disastrous for man. Eve did the right thing.

The churches, religions and God work quite hard to help us all develop a higher moral sense and to say that for Adam and Eve to NOT reach out for this trait that makes man good is idiocy.

Eve, as the older Hebrew and Jewish traditions believed, did not cause our fall but caused our elevation to a higher state even acknowledged by God. Gen 3 22. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

A & E were following good advise in eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because without this knowledge, almost all issues remain outside the realm of discussions as most issues have aspects of good and evil.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If you wish to follow this quotation and emulate God as you are supposed to, then you have to follow Eve and develop your moral sense.

It was not a fall. It was an elevation.

The Gnostics, Jews and Hebrew were right and Constantine’s Church was wrong.

Below are just some things for non theists to think about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxyLZyBjyvY

http://www.gnosis.org/genesis.html

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

If you happen to be a literalist or fundamental and have your belief based on faith, fantasy and magic, you may not want to bother watching or reading the above as you may have lost the ability to use reason and logic and will not understand them. This happens quite often to those with faith not based on facts.

““Reason is the Devil’s greatest whore;” M L.

That is why Martin Luther hated logic and reason so much. He knew that they were the enemy of faith as they proved and showed faith without facts to be for fools.

Would you follow Eve or give up your moral sense?

Regards
DL
 
A moral sense about what is right and wrong for there is no such thing as evil unless you are a religious follower. Man made laws are enacted to insure that citizens will understand what is good and bad within the society they are living within. Those laws are written by people that want to convey their message to everyone about what can be tolerated in their society and what can't.
 
that's true, there is no such thing as an absolute moral evil in the universe. the universe does not run on notions of morality.

that's why those who are the most brutal and nasty and manipulative can be successful. according to the universe, they represent intelligent life. it's about those who can survive, not how they survive.

this means that a murderer is more intelligent than it's victim.

a pedophile, that does not get caught, is more intelligent than it's victim etc.

a thief that does not get caught is more intelligent etc.

if one can destroy or damage competition, then they have better change of surviving.

the universe, according to what we can witness, is simply about survival of the fittest.
 
cosmictraveler said:
A moral sense about what is right and wrong for there is no such thing as evil unless you are a religious follower. Man made laws are enacted to insure that citizens will understand what is good and bad within the society they are living within. Those laws are written by people that want to convey their message to everyone about what can be tolerated in their society and what can't.
Click to expand...

Good and evil and good and bad are the same to me. Semantics.
You obviously know this or you would not have used good and bad.

Regards
DL
 
If you steal be ready you'll be stolen.
If you are violent, be ready you'll be the victim of violence.
If you do not want to be stolen or to be the victim of a violent, then do not steal and do not be violent.
These rules must be imposed also to other members of society.
If you can not impose these rules because you're in the minority, then or you adapt or forsake that society.
The society which chose the correct rule will survive.
These rules will be set somewhere in the Super ego (through history) and become moral norms.
 
birch said:
that's true, there is no such thing as an absolute moral evil in the universe. the universe does not run on notions of morality.

that's why those who are the most brutal and nasty and manipulative can be successful. according to the universe, they represent intelligent life. it's about those who can survive, not how they survive.

this means that a murderer is more intelligent than it's victim.

a pedophile, that does not get caught, is more intelligent than it's victim etc.

a thief that does not get caught is more intelligent etc.

if one can destroy or damage competition, then they have better change of surviving.

the universe, according to what we can witness, is simply about survival of the fittest.
Click to expand...

I do agree with your last but not what you wrote before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6dTU7KVpsg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8&feature=player_embedded

Regards
DL
 
the universe is lovely and so are the laws of nature.

you can see it in how life tears apart often limb by limb, spilling blood and guts everywhere. the aroma is beautiful.

you can witness it in how prey run away frantically while being chased.

you can see the beautiful relationship in how ticks and fleas can literally suck the life out of your dog or cat if you didn't assist them. their misery is just beautiful cause and effect of nature.

how about lovely measles or smallpox? such benevolent creatures. oh, we've eradicated nature's lovely offspring. how about cancer?

we can witness it in the wars that are being waged, small and large on the planet right now. the bloodshed, mourning and wailing is such beautiful music to the ears. how about child prostitution or people being lured and tricked because of poverty into life of slavery. how about the lovely drug industry? have you seen the beautiful meth, crack and heroine addicts?

the laws of nature are just a wonderfully beautiful thing. the truth is right in front of us, how blind we are not to see and acknowledge it for what it is. so lovely.
 
Emil said:
If you steal be ready you'll be stolen.
If you are violent, be ready you'll be the victim of violence.
If you do not want to be stolen or to be the victim of a violent, then do not steal and do not be violent.
These rules must be imposed also to other members of society.
If you can not impose these rules because you're in the minority, then or you adapt or forsake that society.
The society which chose the correct rule will survive.
These rules will be set somewhere in the Super ego (through history) and become moral norms.
Click to expand...

Not bad at all.

Regards
DL
 
birch said:
the universe is lovely and so are the laws of nature.

you can see it in how life tears apart often limb by limb, spilling blood and guts everywhere. the aroma is beautiful.

you can witness it in how prey run away frantically while being chased.

you can see the beautiful relationship in how ticks and fleas can literally suck the life out of your dog or cat if you didn't assist them.

how about lovely measles or smallpox? such benevolent creatures. oh, we've eradicated nature's lovely offspring. how about cancer?

we can witness it in the wars that are being waged, small and large on the planet right now. the bloodshed, mourning and wailing is such beautiful music to the ears.

the laws of nature are just a wonderfully beautiful thing. the truth is right in front of us, how blind we are not to see and acknowledge it for what it is. so lovely.
Click to expand...

Short sighted. try looking from mothers natures view point. Do you think she cares more about you than the worms that will eat you when you die?

Not at all. To her, life is life. It is only you that puts yours above other forms.

Regards
DL
 
Short sighted. try looking from mothers natures view point. Do you think she cares more about you than the worms that will eat you when you die?

Not at all. To her, life is life. It is only you that puts yours above other forms.

Regards
DL
Click to expand...

right, that's why i said it's beautiful. i just don't know why everyone's cries are not cries of joy intead of sadness and pain.

they are just not seeing it from mother nature's point of view, as you said. the system is very lovely. i can't imagine an immense intelligence coming up with anything remotely better. we should humbly be in awe of it.
 
Greatest I am said:
Would you give up your moral sense?

A moral sense is developed with the knowledge of good and evil.

Ask any man if he is a better man with a moral sense or not.
He will answer that it is better for man to have a moral sense.
In other words, if given that same commandment by God today, man would be all that he can be by NOT obeying a command that basically keeps man as bright as a cow without a moral sense. To not reach out for the knowledge of good and evil would be wrong and disastrous for man. Eve did the right thing.

The churches, religions and God work quite hard to help us all develop a higher moral sense and to say that for Adam and Eve to NOT reach out for this trait that makes man good is idiocy.

Eve, as the older Hebrew and Jewish traditions believed, did not cause our fall but caused our elevation to a higher state even acknowledged by God. Gen 3 22. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

A & E were following good advise in eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because without this knowledge, almost all issues remain outside the realm of discussions as most issues have aspects of good and evil.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If you wish to follow this quotation and emulate God as you are supposed to, then you have to follow Eve and develop your moral sense.

It was not a fall. It was an elevation.

The Gnostics, Jews and Hebrew were right and Constantine’s Church was wrong.

Below are just some things for non theists to think about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxyLZyBjyvY

http://www.gnosis.org/genesis.html

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

If you happen to be a literalist or fundamental and have your belief based on faith, fantasy and magic, you may not want to bother watching or reading the above as you may have lost the ability to use reason and logic and will not understand them. This happens quite often to those with faith not based on facts.

““Reason is the Devil’s greatest whore;” M L.

That is why Martin Luther hated logic and reason so much. He knew that they were the enemy of faith as they proved and showed faith without facts to be for fools.

Would you follow Eve or give up your moral sense?

Regards
DL
Click to expand...



That's very interesting...
However When God and the Word (the Spirit form of Jesus) referred Eve to being "like us, knowing good an evil" It was not what you think it is. It's not the actual HAVING of knowledge of Good and Evil.

They already knew that when God told them not to take from the Tree.
Hense (Eating from the other Trees of the Garden was Good while Eating from the Tree in the center was bad)

This was about Authority.
(Like us) meaning standing in judgment...DECIDING what is good and bad.
Eve decided for herself what was good and bad and that's how she become like God and the Word.

In the Greek scriptures this is exemplified when the young ruler comes up to Jesus asking "what more can I do" He called Jesus, "GOOD TEACHER" and Jesus rebukes him saying..."Only one knows what is good)

It is worthy of note that the "power of judging" was reserved for Kings and Judges to decided and make rules as to what was good and bad. In effect this is a different kind of knowing...It's somewhat metaphorical even in the Aramaic understanding like a phrase or perhaps even a style of slang, a simple way of expressing a commonly understood concept.
 
So all Eve had to do then was stay as bright as a cow and obey like a good little slave.

Is that what you think God created man to be?

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am said:
Would you give up your moral sense?

A moral sense is developed with the knowledge of good and evil.

Ask any man if he is a better man with a moral sense or not.
He will answer that it is better for man to have a moral sense.
In other words, if given that same commandment by God today, man would be all that he can be by NOT obeying a command that basically keeps man as bright as a cow without a moral sense. To not reach out for the knowledge of good and evil would be wrong and disastrous for man. Eve did the right thing.

The churches, religions and God work quite hard to help us all develop a higher moral sense and to say that for Adam and Eve to NOT reach out for this trait that makes man good is idiocy.

Eve, as the older Hebrew and Jewish traditions believed, did not cause our fall but caused our elevation to a higher state even acknowledged by God. Gen 3 22. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

A & E were following good advise in eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because without this knowledge, almost all issues remain outside the realm of discussions as most issues have aspects of good and evil.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If you wish to follow this quotation and emulate God as you are supposed to, then you have to follow Eve and develop your moral sense.

It was not a fall. It was an elevation.

The Gnostics, Jews and Hebrew were right and Constantine’s Church was wrong.

Below are just some things for non theists to think about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxyLZyBjyvY

http://www.gnosis.org/genesis.html

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

If you happen to be a literalist or fundamental and have your belief based on faith, fantasy and magic, you may not want to bother watching or reading the above as you may have lost the ability to use reason and logic and will not understand them. This happens quite often to those with faith not based on facts.

““Reason is the Devil’s greatest whore;” M L.

That is why Martin Luther hated logic and reason so much. He knew that they were the enemy of faith as they proved and showed faith without facts to be for fools.

Would you follow Eve or give up your moral sense?

Regards
DL
Click to expand...

that's hard to say. they traded communion with god for morality. i'm not a fan of morality per se. i associate it with mankind, but not with god. i think that even in the best light, mankind's morality pales in comparison with the correct way to live.

but i like knowledge. i think knowledge is a good thing, even if it's knowledge of evil. but now that i know evil, i want only good. and the only way i know how to rid the world of evil is to rid myself of it and love people. i've found that having a relationship with god (communion) allows me to do that. and it comes full circle. ever heard that expression "if you love something, set it free?" so, i want to come back. you know, sin had to be "injected" into society somehow, i want it "ejected".
 
Lori_7 said:
that's hard to say. they traded communion with god for morality. i'm not a fan of morality per se. i associate it with mankind, but not with god. i think that even in the best light, mankind's morality pales in comparison with the correct way to live.

but i like knowledge. i think knowledge is a good thing, even if it's knowledge of evil. but now that i know evil, i want only good. and the only way i know how to rid the world of evil is to rid myself of it and love people. i've found that having a relationship with god (communion) allows me to do that. and it comes full circle. ever heard that expression "if you love something, set it free?" so, i want to come back. you know, sin had to be "injected" into society somehow, i want it "ejected".
Click to expand...

If as you say, you have a relationship with God, then you should know why he created moral evils. Who else is to set the standards?
As scripture says, he created it for his pleasure and it is a gift to us as all of his creations are. He will not be pleased that you want to rid yourself of his gifts.

Are you saying you would not follow Eve and gain a moral sense?

Regards
DL
 
Saquist said:
No, Greatest I am, that's what you think God created man to be.
I don't have a problem with authority.
Click to expand...

Imaginary authority.

If you are a father, do you not want your children to do better than whatever you are?

Why then would you think your heavenly father wants slaves instead of fully autonomous people who strive to meet or beat his record.

Not hard to do as scripture shows a genocidal maniac who wants to keep us stupid.

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am said:
Imaginary authority.
Click to expand...
If those are your beliefs but they are not mine.

If you are a father, do you not want your children to do better than whatever you are?
Click to expand...

In a human perspective, yes.

Why then would you think your heavenly father wants slaves instead of fully autonomous people who strive to meet or beat his record.
Click to expand...

I don't believe God wants slaves, that's what you believe.
I also don't make the assumption we could be like God.

Not hard to do as scripture shows a genocidal maniac who wants to keep us stupid.
Click to expand...

I think race is a human preoccupation of pride and ego. We are all human there is little difference from one to the next.

Maniac is defined as:

: madman, lunatic
2
: a person characterized by an inordinate or ungovernable enthusiasm for something.

Yet the Hebrew text is a list of governing Laws given by God. Either you're ignoring the vast majority of the text for own interpretation or you're brazenly exercising a personal bias.
 
Greatest I am said:
If as you say, you have a relationship with God, then you should know why he created moral evils. Who else is to set the standards?
As scripture says, he created it for his pleasure and it is a gift to us as all of his creations are. He will not be pleased that you want to rid yourself of his gifts.

Are you saying you would not follow Eve and gain a moral sense?

Regards
DL
Click to expand...

i already told you that's hard to say. i wasn't there; i can't relate.

what i can relate to, i'll reiterate...knowing what i do now, i want to go back. knowing what i do now, i choose communion with god over sin any day.

do you have a problem with heat? are you disgruntled with god because he created the possibility of heat?

well, what if a child puts their hand on the stove burner? what if someone uses it to burn someone else's house down?
 
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