Theist claims God doesn't exist.

[greenberg]

That's not what I was saying at all.

The crux of it is this, there are six billion people on this planet alone, and maybe 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars some of which have planets, some of which have life, ...

... so why would God care about an individual, when there are so many lifeforms?

It's arrogant to think a God, who created so much, could care less about one person, and watch over every aspecyt of their lives to see if they sin. Ludicrous and arrogant.

Assuming you believe in Godof course, and a creator God.

I don't.

In order to discuss this issue at hand, it is not necessary to believe in God.

We are exploring whether the argument "There are too many living beings for God to care for each and every one of them" is valid.

I noted earlier that God might be so big and so powerful to be able to pay attention to every living being.

Your line of reasoning seems to be that God is not so big and not so powerful to be able to pay attention to every living being.

The traditional understanding of God from scriptures from various monotheistic religions is that God is almighty. So according to this, God is very well so big and so powerful to be able to pay attention to every living being.

How do you support your reasoning that God might not so big and not so powerful to be able to pay attention to every living being?


And again, we are exploring a hypothetical, the validity of an argument. To do this, it is not necessary to believe in God, so you can participate - in fact you should participate, since you brought up issue.

 

[Jan Ardena]

phlogistician,

You are arrogant because you said;
"Not that he doesn't exist, or we can't understand god with an intelligent mind."
Implying you had an intelligent mind, or that those that didn't 'understand' god were not of an intelligent mind.

Let's look at what I said in its full context;

“ JB claimed god was nothingness. You say you think nothingness is something you can't experience. ”

I didn't say "can't experience", I said we cannot percieve it with our basic senses.

“ Therefore you imply that you have never experienced god. ”

My take on JB's idea is that God cannot directly be percieved via our basic senses, and based on that non perception, he is 'nothingness'. Not that he doesn't exist, or we can't understand god with an intelligent mind.

Now please explain how you conclude that I was being arrogant, and also, please explain how, from that statement, God personally thinks about me.

Why are you worthy of the attention of a being so powerful it can summon the Universe into existence?

Please read above.

Why do you think belief in god comes from an 'intelligent mind'?

Who said belief in God comes from an intelligent mind?
Don't you read posts you respond to?
But let's say for the sake of argument you asked the question in relation to what I'd actually said.

Why do you think the understanding of god would come from an 'intelligent mind?

The short answer to that would be, all understanding comes through an intelligent mind(s).

It has arrogance written all over it.

Your response has ignorance written all over it, and as such, cancels out you accusation of arrogance.

jan.

 

[phlogistician]

Has such delegation taken place, or not?

If it had, don't you think you would have heard about it?

At this point, it doesn't matter whether you believe in God or not. We are exploring the validity of your argument about human insignificance in the face of an allmighty God. Hence I qualified my arguments with "If ..."

No, we aren't talking about that. Well, I'm not. You seem to be trying to steer it that way, but as I don't believe in god that's you driving down a dead end.

This has been directly addressed here:

That OP was rather bloated, and lacked the simplicity of my question.

 

[phlogistician]

In order to discuss this issue at hand, it is not necessary to believe in God.

For me, it is. I cannot ascribe attributes to a mythical being that I don't believe exists.

All that matters is the believers point of view; the arrogance scales up with their claims, in that God either just looks over six billion people on Earth (fairly arrogant) to their God being master of the entire Universe, and the potentially HUGE number of inhabitants, while still maintaining an interest in the individual believer, which is HUGELY arrogant.

Why do they think they command the attention of a supreme being?

Arrogance.

Religion makes people arrogant. They proselytise, make laws based on their opinion, makes wars on people, and it makes them think they are better than others, 'the chosen people' and somehow special.

Now, in all honestly, you are going to tell me that isn't arrogance?

 

[phlogistician]

Now please explain how you conclude that I was being arrogant,

I already did, you said;

Not that he doesn't exist, or we can't understand god with an intelligent mind.

Implying you had an intelligent mind, or that those that didn't 'understand' god were not of an intelligent mind. Implying your superiority for believing.

and also, please explain how, from that statement, God personally thinks about me.

I can't do that, because I have already said I cannot ascribe a personality to a being I don't believe in, and certainly am not arrogant enough to speak on behalf of such a being should I believe it exists!

The short answer to that would be, all understanding comes through an intelligent mind(s).

Understanding of things that you have no proof exist? Hmmm, so if someone says they understand the pixies that live at the bottom of their garden, that makes them 'intelligent' in your book? Please. Your arguments are weak.

Your response has ignorance written all over it, and as such, cancels out you accusation of arrogance.

Again, by hurling insults, you show your arrogance.

I'm not making any claim here Jan, I'm not saying I'm clever or special because of my beliefs. I just don't understand why you think faith in something you can't prove makes you clever. Clearly it doesn't because I'm having to reiterate simple points for you.

jan.[/QUOTE]

 

[Jan Ardena]

phlogistician,

I already did, you said; Not that he doesn't exist, or we can't understand god with an intelligent mind.
Implying you had an intelligent mind, or that those that didn't 'understand' god were not of an intelligent mind. Implying your superiority for believing.

You haven't explained how, what I said implies that I think am intelligent, and that others are unintelligent.
Please explain, and stop being evasive.

I can't do that, because I have already said I cannot ascribe a personality to a being I don't believe in,

I meant, explain how you arrive at the conclusion that, that God personally thinks about me, from reading the sentence you quoted. Thanks.

...and certainly am not arrogant enough to speak on behalf of such a being should I believe it exists!

So you are arrogant then? Just not enough to speak on behalf of such a being.

Understanding of things that you have no proof exist? Hmmm, so if someone says they understand the pixies that live at the bottom of their garden, that makes them 'intelligent' in your book?

Pixies are green faeries who often take the form of hedgehogs, they originated from Cornwall. Some say they are elves with shaggy, short, haircuts.
I don't know whether I believe they are real beings or not, and I've never given them much thought. But my basic understand came about through my intelligence.

Please. Your arguments are weak.

This isn't an argument, it is an inquirey into your accusations, and thus far you have failed to come up with a rational explanion as to why the quoted statement, implied that I am arrogant, and, personally thought about by god.

Again, by hurling insults, you show your arrogance.

I can't help if you're ignorant of this subject, and there is nothing wrong in pointing out such ignorance. It most certainly isn't an insult.

I'm not making any claim here Jan,

You've claimed that, through the quoted statement, that I am arrogant.

I'm not saying I'm clever or special because of my beliefs.

Neither am I.
If you think I am, then please explain how.

I just don't understand why you think faith in something you can't prove makes you clever.

I can't understand why you poisened your next door neighbour.

I'm having to reiterate simple points for you.

The point is, you don't have a point, at least not untill you explain what you see in that quotation that justifies your accusation.

I look forward to your explanation.
Thanks in advance.

jan.

 

[(Q)]

Pixies are green faeries who often take the form of hedgehogs, they originated from Cornwall. Some say they are elves with shaggy, short, haircuts.
I don't know whether I believe they are real beings or not, and I've never given them much thought. But my basic understand came about through my intelligence.

Certainly Jan, a key element of intelligence is understanding. And, to understand, one must think critically. Hence, it would be a lack of intelligence that would lead to your misunderstanding of hedgehogs.

Perhaps, you're referring to your boundless gullibility?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Certainly Jan, a key element of intelligence is understanding. And, to understand, one must think critically. Hence, it would be a lack of intelligence that would lead to your misunderstanding of hedgehogs.

Perhaps, you're referring to your boundless gullibility?

My "misunderstanding" as you put it, was actually intelligence at work. I suggest if you have a problem with the hedgehogs part, take it up with google.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=e...e:Pixies&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

jan.

 

[(Q)]

My "misunderstanding" as you put it, was actually intelligence at work. I suggest if you have a problem with the hedgehogs part, take it up with google.

You're the one repeating outlandish claims of hedgehogs being pixies to demonstrate your intelligence, why take it up with google?

Just so that you have an example, here's actual intelligence at work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedgehog

What you've provided is pure gullibility.

 

[Jan Ardena]

You're the one repeating outlandish claims of hedgehogs being pixies to demonstrate your intelligence, why take it up with google?

Just so that you have an example, here's actual intelligence at work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedgehog

What you've provided is pure gullibility.

I've made no claim, I merely put pixie into a search engine and out came the results. If you cared to read my post properly you would have noticed that I do not have an opinion on pixies.

Jan.

 

[phlogistician]

Jan, you are being really dishonest now. I've quoted the passage that made you sound arrogant several times now, and explained why.

Can you also cut out this crap;

thus far you have failed to come up with a rational explanion as to why the quoted statement, implied that I am arrogant, and, personally thought about by god.

NOWHERE have I said you are thought about by god. QUITE THE FUCKING OPPOSITE. I have clearly asked why, out of six billion people on this planet, out of the billion billion or more stars that have other planets, why god would care about an idividual.

Now Jan, if you don't grasp this, go back and re-read what I have written, because you're starting to look dishonest, diversionary, and evasive.

 

[phlogistician]

I've made no claim, I merely put pixie into a search engine and out came the results. If you cared to read my post properly you would have noticed that I do not have an opinion on pixies.

Jan.

You wrote;

I don't know whether I believe they are real beings or not, and I've never given them much thought. But my basic understand came about through my intelligence.

How can you understand something you say you don't believe in? You do have an opinion on Pixies, Jan, you understand them.

It so sad when you don't actually comprehend the meaning of things you actually write yourself. It's just word salad.

 

[greenberg]

For me, it is. I cannot ascribe attributes to a mythical being that I don't believe exists.

In that case, your whole point about theists being arrogant is null and void.


And you yourself have ascribed an attribute to God: namely, that God is uncaring.

 

[greenberg]

All that matters is the believers point of view; the arrogance scales up with their claims, in that God either just looks over six billion people on Earth (fairly arrogant) to their God being master of the entire Universe, and the potentially HUGE number of inhabitants, while still maintaining an interest in the individual believer, which is HUGELY arrogant.

Why do they think they command the attention of a supreme being?

Arrogance.

Why do you think it is simply human arrogance to think that a human could command the atention of a supreme being?

Why do you think it is impossible that God would pay attention to each and every living being?

 

[phlogistician]

In that case, your whole point about theists being arrogant is null and void.

Are you really that thick? Theists are arrogant because they believe they are being watched over. What I believe does not factor.

And you yourself have ascribed an attribute to God: namely, that God is uncaring.

Nowhere have I said that. Now, please stop stuffing a straw man and debate me honestly on things I have said.

 

[phlogistician]

Why do you think it is simply human arrogance to think that a human could command the atention of a supreme being?

Why do you think it is impossible that God would pay attention to each and every living being?

Read what you quote before you ask the question answered already, eh?

Like I said, the arrogance scales with the claims made by the theist. And please, try and justify the pro position, it's not up to me to falsify the claims made by loonies.

I could ask you questions about the celestial teapot, or the FSM you couldn't falsify, so it's a dishonest tactic to ask me to disprove someone's claim.

So, honest debating tactics, and please only what I have said, not tangential inferences that you keep getting wrong.

 

[Jan Ardena]

phlogistician,

Jan, you are being really dishonest now. I've quoted the passage that made you sound arrogant several times now, and explained why.

In post 39, you said "that is exactly what you implied", pertaining to the quote. That is NOT an explanation.

In post 43 you said; "It's clear what you wrote.".
That is not an explanation.

You went on to say; "But then, let's face it, the whole belief position is one of arrogance; that a supreme being, creator of the entire Universe is interested in you as an individual."
This is NOT an explanation, just an opinion.

In post 46, your so-called explanation was due to the fact that I had made the quote in the first place. But you didn't give an explanation as to why the quote itself implied arrogance.

In the same post you made a weak attempt to justify your baseless accusation by stating that my arrogance was because I think I am worthy of the attention of a being so powerful it can summon the Universe into existence. And I think that belief in God comes from an intelligent mind only. You have yet to explain how these ideas of yours are connected to the quoted statement, the one where you clearly state arrogance is implied.

NOWHERE have I said you are thought about by god. QUITE THE FUCKING OPPOSITE. I have clearly asked why, out of six billion people on this planet, out of the billion billion or more stars that have other planets, why god would care about an idividual.

Why wouldn't he?
And if it doesn't matter to you, because you don't believe, then why bother argue in the first place?

Now Jan, if you don't grasp this, go back and re-read what I have written, because you're starting to look dishonest, diversionary, and evasive.

What's sad about your state of mind, is not that you are totally wrong, but you cannot see that you are, and you have complete confidence in your wrongness.

jan.

 

[greenberg]

Theists are arrogant because they believe they are being watched over.

Why is it arrogant to believe one is being watched over?

 

[phlogistician]

Jan, I explained why you are arrogant, I have quoted and explained. Seems you are too dim to see it. Stop wasting words and go and re-read what has already been written. It's all there. Take your blinkers off, eh?

 

[phlogistician]

Why is it arrogant to believe one is being watched over?

I already said it's up to those that make the claims to prove them, not me to disbelieve them. Without proof, the idea that an individual is special enough to get the attention of a supreme being, is supremely arrogant.

Maybe you can't see it, because you want it to be true. You mind is clouded, perhaps?