The Wiccan Rede...

Cupric or Banshee

So, what happens to people (withches) that abuse witchcraft? And Im totally retarded when it comes to this subject - so please forgive me. There is no heavan or hell - right? The only things I know of this - is what I learned on TV. So im sure they are wrong. But what happens after you die? Do you have a god? And what do the elements mean? Im very curious.
 
Banshee,

"Earlier" times...okay, I missed that bit. But actually, I see many Wiccans calling themselves just that in current times...but it's sort of a moot point anyway - is there *anything* some Witch or Wiccan hasn't called themselves at some point or another? :D Wicca has definitely broadened out since it's inception, that I am in complete agreement with. Some folks object to this broadening as a loss of old traditions, but I can't help but see it as a positive thing.

And hey, if you're not comfortable discussing spells here, by all means don't! I'm not trying to pressure anybody, I was just pointing out that some folks (like me) don't mind discussing them. :) Join in, or stand by, but you're certainally welcome to jump in at any point. Since you *are* a Wiccan (unless I've read something wrong), you'll likely have a different viewpoint to mine, which can only make the discussion more interesting, yes? :) But, y'know, follow your comfort level.

Blackness, darkness and 'evil' are not in my path of living

Well, I wouldn't exactly say "evil" is part of my path either, but blackness and darkness certainally are. To risk being a pain in the ass, I'll even bet they're part of your path too, just not recognized as such. After all, a full moon is best viewed in the darkest hour of night, is it not? And have you ever used a waning or dark moon in a spell or ritual? :) Darkness and blackness have a bad reputation for being something "evil", but really it's just bad press. (IMO) Even destruction, while it may not always be the most pleasant experience - destruction must occur before construction, and vice-versa. To me this is just another example of one of the many cycles that exist around me everywhere.

BUT - all of this is not to say there's anything wrong with your path, it's simply not mine. :)

Do you mind if I ask how long you've been Wiccan?

Asguard,

Hey, I'll chatter away forever, but - do you have any specific questions? Gives me a starting place. :)
 
Cupric,

I disagree, Nelson. That's a beautiful sentiment, but unfortunately it's very rarely true. In fact, so-called "love spells" are pretty much forbidden in most traditions - Banshee can perhaps help me explain why.

You understood me wrong...
I'm not talking about Love spells, I'm saying that what gives a spell its power is Love... ;)

A spell not casted with Love is weak...

So...there's one definition of "black" magic for you - magic that influences someone's will without their permission.
Yes!! That's for sure!!

The Love spells I'm talking about here are all spells...
I'm not focusing on the issue love, earthly love...
I'm focusing on the way of casting a spell.

Love is the Force which empowers the Universe.

*stRgrL*,

So, what happens to people (withches) that abuse witchcraft?

Everything you do naturally returns 3 times greater to you.

There is no heavan or hell - right?

Heaven and hell are here...

But what happens after you die?

I've never heard this in witchcraft... that's a good question... perhaps Banshee or Cupric (or both...) knows... ;)

Do you have a god?

Two. Our Father from Heavens and our Mother from Earth... :)

And what do the elements mean?

Aspects of ourselves and of the Universe.


Death is really strange... at the same time you return to Heaven and to Earth. Even Christianism say that!! :bugeye:

Love,
Nelson
 
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Originally posted by Cupric
*Well, I wouldn't exactly say "evil" is part of my path either, but blackness and darkness certainally are. To risk being a pain in the ass, I'll even bet they're part of your path too, just not recognized as such. After all, a full moon is best viewed in the darkest hour of night, is it not? And have you ever used a waning or dark moon in a spell or ritual?*

Yes, I meant it more as a way of acting in a 'black' or 'dark' way toward others and having a fear of 'blackness' and 'darkness', for I am not afraid of it at all. Guess I understood you wrong at this point. :) My apologies. :)

Oh yes, I obviously am a pain, even to members here on the boards, so it seems. While it certainly it not my intention.

The darkest hours of the night I prefer most, with or without the full Moon. And yes, I have very often used waning, dark and full Moons in spells and rituals. Every 'part' of the Moon has its own use in spells and rituals.

I am a Wiccan since I was 14 years old. I am 42 now, so a long time. I'm at your service to discuss the subject, don't give spells...sorry. :)
 
TruthSeeker, you posted while I was typing my reply. :)

there's one definition of "black" magic for you - magic that influences someone's will without their permission.

Influencing someone's will without permission is forbidden and out of the question in the Wiccan tradition. Then you head in the direction of Voo-Doo. That's a subject I stay away from. Some say it only works if you believe in this so called "Black Magic". There certainly is something "wicked" about Voo-Doo. It's an old tradition and there are cultures in which this is still in use. Weird things happen in this cultus. I know a few people who dealt with this Voo-Doo. They didn't even know there was someone after them. In the Netherlands live a lot of people from Suriname (don't know if the spelling is correct) and they know how to practise Voo-Doo.

But what happens after you die?

When your life time has come to an end, you have to deal with how you lived this life time. My view on this varies very much from that of the people who say there is nothing after this life time. I don't believe in the one and only god. I call it "All That Is".
I agree with TruthSeeker that heaven and hell are just part of life, not in an afterlife. A lot of humans have lived before and will return in another life time after this one. In between you return to the Cosmos, where you come from. It depends on how you lived this life time, in how you will return to a next life time. Maybe the best word to describe it is Karma or Ka. Don't know how to tell it in different words. I'll think about this. There's a lot more to say about the in between...:) :)
 
stRgrL,

Okay, #1, you're not retarded, LOL, just ignorant on a pretty esoteric topic that most folks know virtually nothing about. Nothing to forgive - you asked a set of perfectly honest and reasonable questions. :)

As for those questions... Well, the answer you're going to get is going to vary by the witch. That's one thing about having a "religion" (for lack of a better term) that has no set dogma - most of us sort of decide what we believe and work with that throughout our lives, revising our opinions as we learn from our mistakes.

Okay...the witch that abuses magic: Some believe in a "Rule of Three", I spoke about that briefly before. This idea basically states that what you send out (ie positive or negative energies, usually in the form of spells) will come back to you, TIMES THREE. (I've also rarely heard other versions that say times six, or slightly more frequently, times nine).

Personally, I do believe that you attract the same sort of energies you send out, but I don't see any sort of multiplication going on in any sort of consistent format.

A couple of good (if rather mundane) examples of this might be a witch that likes to portray herself as intimidating and powerful. If she runs around in black capes flinging hexes, should she be surprised when people vandalize her car and heave rocks through her front windows? She spewed out negativity, she got back negativity.

Now take a witch that is unassuming, she lives peacefully with her Christian neigbors even though she wears a pentagram openly, and uses the magic at her disposal to heal and soothe those she encounters. She is likely to be well-liked despite her "eccentricity", even if she is "found out" to be a witch. She spews positivity, she gets back positivity.

Granted, someone can look and act like the unassuming witch and hex herself silly all night in secrecy, but in my experience, it's very difficult to hide your true self for an extended period of time. Eventually, the truth appears, and consequences are paid in the form of loss of friendship, jobs, trust, and sometimes actual physical danger, depending on the situation.

Do you ("we") have a god...well, there's another that's going to vary depending upon the witch. This is actually a pretty big question! There are lots of variations of belief in Godhood...

Some believe there is a single supreme deity, most often a Goddess.

Some believe in a single supreme deity that is usually split into a male half (A God) and a female half (A Goddess) that are roughly equal in power. If one is considered supreme, it is most often the Goddess half.

Some believe there are hundreds or thousands of different Gods, none are supreme over the others, instead each are (usually) supreme over a certain aspect or two of nature. (IE a God/dess of Beauty, a God/dess of Childbirth, a God/dess of Healing, etc)

Still others believe in a mixture of the above - a single deity, usually split into male and female halves, but known by thousands of names across the globe, giving the impression of being several thousand Gods and Goddesses but is actually a dual or single being.

And then there's the belief that all things are God - every living thing is a bit of God, add us all up and you're getting there...

Some believe the concept of "God" is just a label we place on an unconscious universal force. Others believe the God and/or Goddess are thinking, feeling beings that reach out to, care for, and will communicate with human beings.

And then there are those that believe there are all sorts of different types of Gods in existance - some are unthinking forces, some are "elevated" or "enlightened" human souls, some are souls from a slightly different plane, etc.

Had enough yet? :) And I'm just rattling this off the top of my head, I'm sure there are dozens and dozens of other beliefs.

Personally...well, I'm currently sort of in a blend of a bunch of these ideas. I think there is one main force in the universe that tends to make life happen - this is the true Creator, but it's a non-thinking being. What appears to reach out to us, that communicates with and loves us, is a layer of "being" added to that force, created by all the thousands of years of psychic activity in the form of prayer, ritual and spellwork humans have been pouring out since we became human. I believe we have literally given life to that force, made up of all the little bits we have willingly sacrificed to it over the years. How we percieve it from there, what sex we assign or what names we choose to call it are up to us. (all my own opinion, of course)

Many of those specialized God-names are still useful to me, however. I regularly revere the Hindu god Ganesha, the name of this God works for me as sort of a key into the corresponding wavelengths of this "Force" or "God", producing the results I desire. (Ganesha is known as the remover of obstacles.)

The elements...ahhh, yes! And like anything else, my answer will vary from someone else's...

Most recognize four elements - Earth, Air, Fire & Water. Obviously, these aren't the modern elements... I've heard these called the "old" elements, and the "alchemical" elements. I believe these are mainly from the British area, which is where most witchcraft is traced back to.

BUT - this is another that varies upon tradition. Druids see "realms" instead of elements - the Realms of Earth, Air and Water, and Fire is the means of moving between the three realms.

Chinese medicine has five elements - Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and Metal. (I think those are right, anyway...one of those seems wrong now that I'm looking at it though...)

I use a modification of the first set - I observe five elements, the fifth being "Space" or "Spirit".

The elements are useful in spellwork - each element corresponds to several things. Water, for example, corresponds to the direction West, the Sea, deep emotion, and femininity (and many, many other things). So if your spell involves any of those things, the element of Water might be a good thing to include.

When in ritual, many covens (or groves, or circles, or whatever they're calling themselves) will ask the spirit of each direction to be present, to lend their energy to the ritual and to protect the group from intrusion. In this role, the elements are often referred to as the "Watchtowers", and each element/direction/watchtower is invoked individually, asked to peform as guardian, then ritually thanked and dismissed at the end of the ritual. (With lots of variations, depending upon the group.)

I'm certain I've missed a whole bunch of information here, but I think this is a long enough post for the moment, LOL, and hopefully it'll at least give us some good stuff to talk about. :)
 
Banshee,

Oh yes, I obviously am a pain, even to members here on the boards, so it seems. While it certainly it not my intention.

LOL! Oh, no no no!! That's not what I was saying at all... I was saying *I* was being the pain in the ass! :) And hey, no need to apologize either, misunderstandings happen on boards, it's just how it goes. No worries. :) (I don't get upset very easily, folks gotta *try* if they want to offend me. :) )

Every 'part' of the Moon has its own use in spells and rituals.

I agree! I also like how you put "part" in quotes like that - I see a lot of folks that tend to forget there's more to the moon than just waxing, full, waning, and dark - she's always a'changin'. ;)
 
Nelson,

A spell not casted with Love is weak...

Hmmm... I'm still not seeing exactly what you mean here... Perhaps we are working with differing definitions of love?

How are you defining Love? I see you said "Love is the Force which empowers the Universe.", but do you have anything more specific I can sink my teeth into? Thanks. :)
 
Cupric,

I use a modification of the first set - I observe five elements, the fifth being "Space" or "Spirit".

I do the same...

I match the four elements, five elements, four seasons and the 12 signs of the zodiac. It's perfect to work with witchcraft... ;)

Like...
Aries, Leo and Saggitarius: Fire
And so on... ;)

They work in triangles.
You get the 12 signs and divide per 4 (elements). You get 4 triangles for each element.

I read a long time ago a book that talked about that and it inspired me to mix all those things together. The book also mixed all those things with Junguian Psychology.

Unfortunatly, I don't remember the name of the book... :(

I will see if I found a site about this... :);)

Love,
Nelson
 
Cupric,

How are you defining Love? I see you said "Love is the Force which empowers the Universe.", but do you have anything more specific I can sink my teeth into? Thanks.

Words are not enough to determine a Highter Truth. Probably because The Highter Truth is limitless... ;)

I don't know how can I say...

Love is the "Force" within the Universe. The Universe is nothing but Love. Love is a limitless resource of Creation. Once you connect yourself with this source, Love, you are able to access your God Self and create your own Reality.

It's an everlasting game of conscient and unconscient. Your conscient and subconscient do the programation of your unconscient. The ego is just the tip of an iceberg in the middle of the ocean of the Highter Self, the God of Creation.

Once you know how to relate consciently with your Highter Self you are using magic in your life.
That's the Faith of Christianism. ;)
That's the kabbalah in Judaism. ;)
That's the Non-Action in Taoism. ;)
.
.
. And so on... :D
.
.
.
;)

Once you discover your Real Self, your True Self, your Highter Self, Inner Child, God Self........ and learn how to use it in your behalf, you use magic. Why do I call Love...?
Because...

We are all Love Beings, Children of God :)

Love,
Nelson
 
Love is the "Force" within the Universe. The Universe is nothing but Love. Love is a limitless resource of Creation. Once you connect yourself with this source, Love, you are able to access your God Self and create your own Reality.
It's an everlasting game of conscient and unconscient. Your conscient and subconscient do the programation of your unconscient. The ego is just the tip of an iceberg in the middle of the ocean of the Highter Self, the God of Creation.
That's some heavy gibberish, Seeker! Any proof fot that except your own imagination?;)
Cheers!
 
I think I understand now, Nelson.

You are calling "love" what I call "God", I think. This part
Love is a limitless resource of Creation
especially makes me believe so.

Different words, same essence.

It's an everlasting game of conscient and unconscient. Your conscient and subconscient do the programation of your unconscient. The ego is just the tip of an iceberg in the middle of the ocean of the Highter Self, the God of Creation.

(I think you mean unconscious, conscious, and subconscious, yes?)

C. Jung's work about archetypes and the subconscious mind seem to back up what you're saying, I think. I'm curious about what you might be saying though - are you saing the "unconscious" mind and the "subconscious" mind are different? (are we heading towards an "id, ego, superego" type idea, or a dual "conscious, subconscious" type of idea here? Or something else?)

I think for my own personal use, I'd subsitute the word "hidden" or "inner" self instead of "higher" self, but otherwise, I'm thinking I'm understanding what you're saying, and agreeing for the most part.
 
Cupric,

Yes, you understood. :)

I'm curious about what you might be saying though - are you saing the "unconscious" mind and the "subconscious" mind are different? (are we heading towards an "id, ego, superego" type idea, or a dual "conscious, subconscious" type of idea here? Or something else?)

That's a confusing thing...
First better not use the term uncoscious. Instead, let's use the term "Supraconscient".
There is conscient, subconscient and supraconscient.

Conscient is easy to understand, it's your ego.
Subconscient and Supraconscient are harder.

Subconscient is the part of yourself where your feelings are hidden. It's where all your old life patterns are. It creates your habits and it dictates what will happen with you. It gives you even your feelings, your reactions. A common example of subconscient pattern is the "victim". The one that says that he is always the victim will always be until he goes into his subconscient and changes the pattern. There are hundreds of examples...

Supraconscient is another name for Subconscient... but in a different perspective. The Supraconscient is your Inner Self. It's where the Creation is made. The Subconscient gives the pattern the Conscient made to the Supraconscient which creates it in our lifes...

Complex, isn't?

Ok... let's see in different ways.
The Conscient is the tip of an iceberg in the middle of an Ocean, your Supraconscient. Your Subconscient is the part of the iceberg which is underwater. The process of Reality Creation is:

...........................Conscient
................................|
.......................Subconscient....Subconscient
................................|............../
.......................Supraconscient
................................|
.......................Manifestation

Two things can happen:
1. State of Awareness:
Your Conscient gives the information to your Subconscient, which gives it to Supraconscient which manifests it.

2.Common State (nowdays...):
Your Subconscient gives old patterns information to your Supraconscient when you are "self-sleeping" instead of self-aware, which manifests it.

Understood?
If you didn't, I understand you... :D:D:D

Love,
Nelson
 
Cupric

I would love to give you a spacific question but i don't know enough to know what to ask

By the way on gods i have always felt that the univese IS god and that he creates worlds like earth, his daughters (i just see planets as female, don't know why). That probably sounds stupid
 
Asguard,

By the way on gods i have always felt that the univese IS god and that he creates worlds like earth, his daughters (i just see planets as female, don't know why). That probably sounds stupid

The energy of planets is the Female Energy.
It feels female because planets are the site where life borns.

Heavens is Father.
Earth is Mother.

Heaven have seeds.
Earth receive them and life is born.

Love,
Nelson
 
By the way on gods i have always felt that the univese IS god and that he creates worlds like earth, his daughters (i just see planets as female, don't know why). That probably sounds stupid.

Not stupid at all Asguard. :) Gods, The Cosmos: All That Is...! :)

The Planets are in general female energy...
 
Asguard,

By the way on gods i have always felt that the univese IS god and that he creates worlds like earth, his daughters (i just see planets as female, don't know why). That probably sounds stupid

LOL, nope, doesn't sound stupid in the least! :) What you have there is your own personal perception of the universe, which is just as valid as my own. Different, but in my opinion, just as valid.

Like my car - all my cars have always been male, given male names (current one is named Pepe'), and referred to as "he". For various reasons, it just fits for me. If my hubby referrs to my car as "she", it doesn't sound stupid, it's interesting more than anything else. He's just percieving different things in the same object, doesn't make either of our observations or perceptions the wrong one - it's just a question of what works for you.

Magic seems to work like that as well. I can cast a spell completely differently from someone else, yet we can get nearly identical results. It boils down (I think) to your intent - the words, symbols, guestures, props, music, incense, whatever...all just one of many roads to your chosen destination.

I tend to see most of my mechanical companions as male, actually. My computer is male too. Maybe it's just because I tend to get along with men better than women? (They can be so *bitchy*...and being female doesn't seem to help, I *still* don't understand most women)

*ramble, ramble* I'll shut up now.. :D
 
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