The Universe Is All That Exists

[one_raven]

Man, you really love these sorts of questions, don't you? :m:

How else am I expected to respond when someone says that if something does not have a property of size, that means it has infinite size?

 

[ellion]

but space exist and can be measured therefore size is a property of the universe.

 

[superluminal]

OR,

How else am I expected to respond when someone says that if something does not have a property of size, that means it has infinite size?

Can't argue with that!

 

[one_raven]

but space exist and can be measured therefore size is a property of the universe.

Possibly, but somehow (though I can't quite put it succinctly at the moment) that seems to be artificially limiting the Universe.
I know, it sounds like I am leaning towards the metaphysical and questioning something such as "does Heaven take up space?" but, believe me, I'm not.
It does, however, seem (on the surface, at least) that saying "all that exists" can be measured lengthwise...
If, like I said, you consider the Universe to be a container for all that exists, then that container can be measured, but if it is all that exists... something is amiss.

 

[ellion]

yes i know what you are saying!

space is not the only property of the universe and all that exists is not defined in spatial criteria, yes?

 

[one_raven]

yes i know what you are saying!

space is not the only property of the universe and all that exists is not defined in spatial criteria, yes?

That sounds better than the way I was trying to say it!

 

[TruthSeeker]

but space exist and can be measured therefore size is a property of the universe.

Thank you!

Having said that, if the universe is uncontained, it necessarily mean that it is infinite, which is not possible with the physical laws that we have, therefore, the universe is finite and contained and there must be something outside of it, even if it is "nothingness"!

 

[TruthSeeker]

yes i know what you are saying!

space is not the only property of the universe and all that exists is not defined in spatial criteria, yes?

Ok. So how would you define then?


It seems to me you guys are a little bit confused....

 

[TruthSeeker]

Truthseeker,
How much does the a musical note weigh?
Does it have infinite weight, or is weight simply not a property of musical notes?

As I said before, you cannot compare the universe with something abstract, because the universe is not abstract. The main intrinsic property of the universe is the fact that it is physical, so you cannot apply the properties of something abstract to something that is physical!!!!!!!!

 

[one_raven]

Having said that, if the universe is uncontained, it necessarily mean that it is infinite

No, it does not.

which is not possible with the physical laws that we have

You still haven't supported that statement. Until you do, it is just an assertion. I don't buy it.

therefore, the universe is finite and contained and there must be something outside of it, even if it is "nothingness"!

1.) "Nothingness" is not something.
2.) Specifically WHY must there be something outside it?
3.) If there IS something "outside it" the "The Universe" is not ALL that exists, is it? Therefore, you are discounting the definition given. Again, you are mixing definitions. Do you mean "space" or do you mean "all that exists"?
See, if you do not mean "all that exists", which you can not if you say something must be "outside" of it, then you are not viewing "the Universe" as a container, therefore is has no size.

The main intrinsic property of the universe is the fact that it is physical

No it is not. That's the point.
I don't know if you are diagreeing, or misunderstanding me.
If you consider the Universe to be ALL THAT EXISTS, then it is NOT something physical. Thoughts EXIST, sounds EXISTS, light EXISTS, many things that exist are NOT physical. So, as I was saying, if you consider the Universe to be ALL that exists, you must also consider the abstract, the immaterial and everything else. If you consider the Universe to be a container, it can possibly contain all those things.
Do you NOT see the distinction I am trying to make?
Or do you simply disagree?

 

[ellion]

therefore, the universe is finite and contained and there must be something outside of it, even if it is "nothingness"!

How do we know if there's nothing outside our universe? That sounds very much like an assumption...

the assumption is that the unviverse is all that exists. if this is true then the something "outside" is not "outside" it is "inside" our universe. this doesnt help much because if we say something is inside our universe we create an outside which cannot be. the universe is all that exists. in these terms the universe is existence itself.

However, that begs the question: how big is the universe?

if the universe has a size then it would have an outer edge. if it had an outer edge it would have an outside and an inside. if you define a the univesre as such you are in to the system within a system concept which means the universe is all that exists inside our circumference of expereince.

However, if the universe is infinite, then there is an infinite amount of energy in the universe, which does not make any sense according to the laws of physics which we know off.

how would this be different to a contained universe with a contained amount of energy? please, bear in mind i am not a scientist.

Having said that, if the universe is uncontained, it necessarily mean that it is infinite, which is not possible with the physical laws that we have,

what physical laws restrict the universe? physical laws are a property of the the universe the universe is not a property of physical laws.

 

[TruthSeeker]

No, it does not.

Ok, prove it. If it is uncontained, then how big the universe is? Because as far as I know, the universe physically exist, and everything that physically exists has a size, since size is a property of physical existance.

You still haven't supported that statement. Until you do, it is just an assertion. I don't buy it.

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics

If the universe is infinite, then there must be an infinite amount of energy. Does it look like the universe has an infinite amount of energy?

1.) "Nothingness" is not something.

Yes, it is. It has the property of non-existance. It is, in other words, a perfect vacuum.

2.) Specifically WHY must there be something outside it?

Because even if there is nothingness outside it, then it has something outside it. You don't seem to understand the relationship between existance and non-existance. If something don't exist, it simply doesn't occupy the space, which exists.

3.) If there IS something "outside it" the "The Universe" is not ALL that exists, is it?

Precisely the reason why I pointed out that if the universe would be all that exist, it would be infinite.

Therefore, you are discounting the definition given. Again, you are mixing definitions. Do you mean "space" or do you mean "all that exists"?
See, if you do not mean "all that exists", which you can not if you say something must be "outside" of it, then you are not viewing "the Universe" as a container, therefore is has no size.

The universe is physical. Size is one of the main properties of something that is physical. You seem to be ignoring that.

No it is not. That's the point.

Ok. Maybe that's where we disagree. Why do you think the universe is not physical. Aren't there particles all over the universe? Aren't particles physical?

If an object contains something which is physical, then such an object must be physical itself, even if it is not defined, or a vacuum, simply because it contains what is physical.

I don't know if you are diagreeing, or misunderstanding me.
If you consider the Universe to be ALL THAT EXISTS, then it is NOT something physical.

So what exist is not physical?

Thoughts EXIST, sounds EXISTS, light EXISTS, many things that exist are NOT physical.

I know that. Actually, sound is physical, and it is described as waves of sound. Light is the same. It's like a bullet, but also with wave properties. I would even consider that an evidence of superstrings, though that would be an inductive argument....

So, as I was saying, if you consider the Universe to be ALL that exists, you must also consider the abstract, the immaterial and everything else.

Absolutely! But you are ignoring everything that is physical!!!!!!

If you consider the Universe to be a container, it can possibly contain all those things.

A container is finite.

Do you NOT see the distinction I am trying to make?
Or do you simply disagree?

I disagree. You don't seem to be attaching physical properties to things that are physical. You seem to be mixing them.

 

[TruthSeeker]

the assumption is that the unviverse is all that exists. if this is true then the something "outside" is not "outside" it is "inside" our universe. this doesnt help much because if we say something is inside our universe we create an outside which cannot be. the universe is all that exists. in these terms the universe is existence itself.

Yes, I understand that. But what I'm pointing out is the fact that if the universe is all that exist it must be infinite, otherwise there would be necessarily "something" outside of the universe. If the universe is finite, then there must be something outside of it.

if the universe has a size then it would have an outer edge.

Not if it is infinite.

if it had an outer edge it would have an outside and an inside.

That's exaclty what I'm pointing out. It cannot be infinite, therefore it is finite and therefore, there is an outer edge, an inside, an outside and it is not all that exist.

if you define a the univesre as such you are in to the system within a system concept which means the universe is all that exists inside our circumference of expereince.

inside our circumference of expereince. Thank you.

how would this be different to a contained universe with a contained amount of energy? please, bear in mind i am not a scientist.

A contained universe would have a boundary. So if you define it as "all that exist" then there must be no boundary, which means that the universe cannot be contained. Is it that hard to see that?

what physical laws restrict the universe? physical laws are a property of the the universe the universe is not a property of physical laws.

Physical laws are natural creations of the universe. You cannot have an infinite amount of energy. That's not what we observe anyways...!

 

[ellion]

truthseeker you are simply using a different definition than myself and one raven
your definition is everything that exists within the circumference of the smaller system.

our definition is everything that exists.

 

[TruthSeeker]

truthseeker you are simply using a different definition than myself and one raven
your definition is everything that exists within the circumference of the smaller system.

our definition is everything that exists.

Huuuumm....
I suppose that's true.

I liked what you said here. And I'm stressing the important part, which I focus on.

if the universe has a size then it would have an outer edge. if it had an outer edge it would have an outside and an inside. if you define a the univesre as such you are in to the system within a system concept which means the universe is all that exists inside our circumference of expereince.

I think this is the major difference between us.

Ok. This is a very hard discussion, I think we all agree on that. So I will try to expose my argument in the simplest and most organized way.

1) The universe is all that exist.

a. The universe is a physical thing, with physical properties. <---you seem to disagree with this. It might be an area of major discussion.
b. A size is a physical property
-------------------------------------------------------------------
C: Therefore, the universe has a size.


2) The universe has a definite size.

a. Whatever has a definite size can be either finite or infinite

I. If it is finite (or "contained") it has an outside and an inside​

C1. If it has an outside, then it is not all that exist

I. If it is infinite, it doesn't have an outside and inside​

II. An infinite universe would have an infinite amount of energy​

III. We know that the universe does not have an infinite amount of energy​

C2. Therefore, the universe cannot be infinite

-------------------------------------------------------------------
C: Therefore, the universe cannot be all that exists.


I know it's hard to discuss it. There are many levels in our arguments...
Also, there are other reasons why the universe cannot be infinite- I'm only mentioning one in order to simplify the argument.

Notice that we seem to disagree in a couple of areas ( 1)a. and 2)a.III. )

 

[superluminal]

TS:

Also, there are other reasons why the universe cannot be infinite

How could you ever know this? You can't logically generate truths about the physical universe. We will only ever be able to say that given a model that accurately describes the observable universe, the model requires that it shoud or should not be infinite.

 

[Sarkus]

2) The universe has a definite size.

a. Whatever has a definite size can be either finite or infinite

I. If it is finite (or "contained") it has an outside and an inside​

C1. If it has an outside, then it is not all that exist

Hmmm - I think this is where the flaw in your logic falls over....

"Existence" is a property of the inside of the Universe.
The concepts of "Inside" and "outside" are properties of this Universe.

We can know NOTHING about what is not in this Universe.
It is meaningless to speculate.

You can not thus say it is logical to assume that if the universe is finite then it has an "outside" as "outside" is a concept of the Universe, and the logic you use relates only to the properties of the Universe - i.e. not to that which is not part of the Universe.

We can have NO CONCEPT as to what is not within this universe.

Once you look to what is not part of the Universe you can say nothing meaningful, and therefore logic can not be used with any meaning.

Therefore to say that the Universe is only part of a larger system is meaningless.

To use logic you must start with the fact that the Universe is all that is meaningful - all that is knowable - all that is.
Logic breaks down to meaninglessness once that fact is ignored or not accepted.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Hmmm - I think this is where the flaw in your logic falls over....

"Existence" is a property of the inside of the Universe.

What if there's more "Existance" beyond our circumference of experience? Do we experience "all that exist"? How would you know?

The concepts of "Inside" and "outside" are properties of this Universe.

Well, yeah. So what's outside?

We can know NOTHING about what is not in this Universe.
It is meaningless to speculate.

Well, that's an assumption, though...

You can not thus say it is logical to assume that if the universe is finite then it has an "outside" as "outside" is a concept of the Universe, and the logic you use relates only to the properties of the Universe - i.e. not to that which is not part of the Universe.

I don't get it. What's the difference between a "concept of the Universe" and "the properties of the Universe"? It sounds like you are saying "A is not equal to A".

We can have NO CONCEPT as to what is not within this universe.

Well, at this point in time, yes. But if there is an outside, then that already implies that there is an outside, since you cannot have a boundary without having two different "substances", which the boundary separates. It would be like saying there's a boundary in the middle of the ocean, when all that there is is ocean.

Once you look to what is not part of the Universe you can say nothing meaningful, and therefore logic can not be used with any meaning.

Just because it's outside our sphere of experience, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or is not logical. The Universe is all that we know of. But that doesn't mean that there's something which we don't know. We cannot make such assumption...

 

[ellion]

outside the boundary exists outside. all that exists outside or inside is the universe.

 

[TruthSeeker]

outside the boundary exists outside.

And what is outside?

all that exists outside or inside is the universe.

So the universe is whatever is outside AND inside the universe? :bugeye: