We don't live in a free market.So your free market stuff applies to everyone and everything but slumlords? Then socialism is A OK.
The U.S. Economy: Stand by for more worse news
- Thread starter Brian Foley
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Except we do. But that has nothing to do with your contradictions. You believe in free markets except when slumlords are involved. So in your IDEALIZED Libertarian world Michael, who provides housing to the poor? Are you suggesting the poor should be homeless? Are you advocating the return of poor houses and debtors prisons?
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The poor are able to carry super computers that fit in their pocket and can access almost all information of human experience. It didn't start out that way, at first only 'rich' people could afford a mobile device, and only the middle class had 24 hr access to the internet. But, no thanks to people like Bernie, the (semi) free markets quickly saw a market to sell to, the poor, and thus 'the poor' have smart phones.
If we had free market money and free market housing then the poor would own houses. Big shocker Joe, it's not hard to build a house and plenty of people are looking for work - almost ALL poor would actually BE middle class if we lived in a free society, and the few truly poor that would exist, would exist from family abuse, something society could do something about.
If we lived in a free society, many of those poor would know how to read and write - free people don't pay $180,000 for the shit that posses as "Free" Government Schooling. Almost all of society would be different.
The only person living in an Idealized world are you Statist - and why wouldn't you, the system works for you. You enjoyed your lives, have your fun, raised your families, owned your houses and will retire with benefits and your kids, grandkids and their kids (if they have any) will pay for it all. Hell, to add salt to injury, many in your generation make a living as SlumLords renting to the same generation you've abused. How nice.
Whatever little bubble you live in Joe, it's just that - a bubble. In the real world the State is stealing trillions of dollars bailing out the richest 0.1%, it IS polluting the earth at unprecedented levels (maybe to the point of no return), it now runs 1984 style never-ending Phony Wars that murder millions of real women and children, imprisons the most non-violent humans in all of history. It's hyper-regualted medical industry is now the #3 reason why you'll die. It's schools barf out functional illiterates at a cost of $100,000+ per pupil. And it is destroying our way of life. Which is pretty much gone for most people.
Enjoy your Depends.
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So is your argument now that there are no poor people because they all have access to the internet and have smart phones? I'd like to see your evidence that all poor people have smart phones.
Well, we do have free markets and still we have poor people. History clearly shows that in the era when government regulation was nil, we had many more poor people, poor houses, and debtor prisons. They weren't middle class. So history just doesn't support your ideological beliefs.
Hmm...and what is wrong with "government schools"? Most Americans are educated in "government schools". It's how most Americans have been historically educated. May aunt was a public school teacher in a one room school house. My grandfather was on the board of education. Unfortunately, for you, history shows "government run" education has worked in the US and the world for that matter. That's a verifiable fact Michael.
Name calling, isn't going to make your ideological beliefs any better Michael. Here are some more unpleasant facts for you Michael. My generation inherited the highest debt as percent of GDP since the founding of the nation and we paid down that debt. Additionally, current generations are enjoying the highest standard of living ever known by mankind. They are not working 100 hours and more a week 52 weeks a year. They are not working as slaves. They are not working in dangerous work environments. They are the best educated. They enjoy the best healthcare and have the best health the nation has ever known. They have the longest life expectancy of any generation since mankind crawled out of the trees. Back when I was in high school, there were no computers. Now computers are everywhere. When I was born, the function of DNA was largely unknown. Now the human genome has been mapped and anyone can have their DNA sequenced for a thousand dollars.
Oh, poor babies.
LOL
You live in La La Land Joe.
More like charged up the credit cards leaving your children, their children and (if they can even afford any) their children with YOUR generation's bills.
As for Government Schooling, teachers in the first Government Schools were derived from the free market. Also, up until the 60s-70s, there were no Teachers Unions protecting bad teachers, who were promptly fired. That's not been the case for over half a century. Thus, in Teach Unioned Government Schools of today, they produce some of the most expensive lowest quality 'education' in the nation's history. So much so that for 'The Poor' you claim to care so much about (while thinking of buying their houses off them when they hit hard times), many have a LOWER literacy rate NOW compared to before their were Government Schools.
The DoED publishes their data Joe, the fact is 1 in 5 Government School Graduates ARE functionally illiterate. It's that simple Joe. At a cost of over $100,000 and over a decade in time, broken Government Schools and their worthless sclerotic pedagogy produces some of the LOWEST quality 'education' tax Debt can buy. This is an empirical evidenced fact.
As for the great technological changes that occurred during our nations' history. The late 1800s literally transformed history and ushered in the modern age. It was the freest time in our history and with it came the most prosperity in human history.
LOL
You live in La La Land Joe.
More like charged up the credit cards leaving your children, their children and (if they can even afford any) their children with YOUR generation's bills.
As for Government Schooling, teachers in the first Government Schools were derived from the free market. Also, up until the 60s-70s, there were no Teachers Unions protecting bad teachers, who were promptly fired. That's not been the case for over half a century. Thus, in Teach Unioned Government Schools of today, they produce some of the most expensive lowest quality 'education' in the nation's history. So much so that for 'The Poor' you claim to care so much about (while thinking of buying their houses off them when they hit hard times), many have a LOWER literacy rate NOW compared to before their were Government Schools.
The DoED publishes their data Joe, the fact is 1 in 5 Government School Graduates ARE functionally illiterate. It's that simple Joe. At a cost of over $100,000 and over a decade in time, broken Government Schools and their worthless sclerotic pedagogy produces some of the LOWEST quality 'education' tax Debt can buy. This is an empirical evidenced fact.
As for the great technological changes that occurred during our nations' history. The late 1800s literally transformed history and ushered in the modern age. It was the freest time in our history and with it came the most prosperity in human history.
LOL...that's funny, you accusing someone of living in La La Land.
For you Michael, reality is a bitch.
That's why you use all these specious sources and are heavily reliant upon demagoguery. I would also note, today's US debt is overstated in the above chart because it includes about 5 trillion of intragoverment debt, debt the government owes to itself. Thus this chart significantly overstates current US debt. But even so, it clearly shows US debt as a percent of GDP was much higher back when Baby Boomers were born.
True ONLY if it were politically possible for the federal government not to re-deem the bonds in the Social Security trust fund, etc. but they will be paid like any other bonds the US has issued - by "printing press" money if need be. AARP is growing politically stronger ever year as the average age of the population increases.
To think the US will not / need not / pay any of its bonds at maturity is real La La Land thinking.
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It's true regardless.
and lets under liberals and progressives the trends line slope moved toward negative and when free market corportists like your self ideas were being pushed the slope went more positive. still lying and the mods are still protecting your intellectual dishonestyLOL
You live in La La Land Joe.
More like charged up the credit cards leaving your children, their children and (if they can even afford any) their children with YOUR generation's bills.
As for Government Schooling, teachers in the first Government Schools were derived from the free market. Also, up until the 60s-70s, there were no Teachers Unions protecting bad teachers, who were promptly fired. That's not been the case for over half a century. Thus, in Teach Unioned Government Schools of today, they produce some of the most expensive lowest quality 'education' in the nation's history. So much so that for 'The Poor' you claim to care so much about (while thinking of buying their houses off them when they hit hard times), many have a LOWER literacy rate NOW compared to before their were Government Schools.
The DoED publishes their data Joe, the fact is 1 in 5 Government School Graduates ARE functionally illiterate. It's that simple Joe. At a cost of over $100,000 and over a decade in time, broken Government Schools and their worthless sclerotic pedagogy produces some of the LOWEST quality 'education' tax Debt can buy. This is an empirical evidenced fact.
As for the great technological changes that occurred during our nations' history. The late 1800s literally transformed history and ushered in the modern age. It was the freest time in our history and with it came the most prosperity in human history.
It should be noted, the first peak was debt taken on fighting the NAZI's, the second was bailing them out.
Following the first peak, the USA was the last modern economy unscathed by a war culminating in the nuking of two cities. The world's entire markets were open to and eventually dominated by the USA. Subsequently, the middle class expanded into a generation of petulant Baby's who, when they weren't acting as rent-seekers using the State to enforce their regulator-capture, where busy promising themselves trillions of future liabilities they'd shovel onto their kids, grandkids and great-grandkids. Oh, and when their idiocracy caught up with them, they simply used the State to bailout their 401K plans promising trillions more. Meanwhile, over in the real world, their kids, grandkids and great grandkids are so broke most can't afford to make rent to their slumlord and raise a family, so, many simply won't be having families. And most of those that do manage to procreate a child, will be shoveling that child into long-term day care and dealing with the long-term effects of not bonding to a parent during their formative years. Oh well, SSRI's should sell well for the next decade or to, or until GSRI's become more mainstream.
Enjoy The Recovery - the effects of bailing out the Baby's will be a lesson well learned and remain with us for a long long time.
Following the first peak, the USA was the last modern economy unscathed by a war culminating in the nuking of two cities. The world's entire markets were open to and eventually dominated by the USA. Subsequently, the middle class expanded into a generation of petulant Baby's who, when they weren't acting as rent-seekers using the State to enforce their regulator-capture, where busy promising themselves trillions of future liabilities they'd shovel onto their kids, grandkids and great-grandkids. Oh, and when their idiocracy caught up with them, they simply used the State to bailout their 401K plans promising trillions more. Meanwhile, over in the real world, their kids, grandkids and great grandkids are so broke most can't afford to make rent to their slumlord and raise a family, so, many simply won't be having families. And most of those that do manage to procreate a child, will be shoveling that child into long-term day care and dealing with the long-term effects of not bonding to a parent during their formative years. Oh well, SSRI's should sell well for the next decade or to, or until GSRI's become more mainstream.
Enjoy The Recovery - the effects of bailing out the Baby's will be a lesson well learned and remain with us for a long long time.
I think you are missing the point. The point is you were wrong. The point is, my generation inherited more debt than any since the founding of the nation and we paid it down. The point is Americans are healthier, happier, and more prosperous, and have the most advanced technologies than at anytime since man first walked the Earth.
So as much as you like to demonize the Baby Boomers, the facts are just not consistent with your assertions.
Schmelzer
Valued Senior Member
What the state is doing is redistribution - but taking away from kids, grandkids and great-grandkids, giving them some liabilities, is not possible. You can take only from those living now, and give it to those living now.
The liabilities of the state are, last but not least, liabilities of nobody. The state can always or default, or print a lot of paper. So, all what can be done to the kids is that they don't inherit anything useful - because the property of their parents has been stolen by the state. This property will be inherited by other kids, those of the thefts. But, in this case, we also have no redistribution of taking away from the kids, but redistribution between the kids.
That's an interesting thing about money and limited resources.
Someone, say like my father, who used private unions (UAW) to ensure they were provided with a 6 figure income (back in the 80s) were perfectly moral in doing so. But, when most Americans started buying Made in Japan, because they don't want to pay the small price of a house to buy a crappy Assembled In the USA car or truck, those jobs were lost and eventually the company, General Motors, went bankrupt. In this way, that generation left their kids nothing by way of automotive industry. Which is fine. Companies go bust - it's natural and I'd say necessary. So, this wasn't 'stealing', per say, it was just aesthetically repugnant parenting behavior - at least that's how I subjectively qualify it.
The problem comes in here: After GM went bankrupt, the State took out a few billion in debt obligations and paid for the retirement of Union members like my father. In this case, around $5000 a month (well, he could make more if he bothered to put in the paper work, and maybe has?). This $5000 will compete goods and services away from his children. This IS stealing. Worse still, they are paying for the $5000 through their State-coerced taxes.
It's a form of Slavery.
Many in that generation have even become Slumlords to the next, using the State and it's monetary system against the next generations. All backed by State-coercive violence. It's a mental sickness.
Violence is violence.
And all of society is distorted into a misshapen ugly gnome-like carcass of a human as this violence permeates all aspects of society. Not very good by analogy, but this is happening. Everything and everyone is affected and alters their behavior accordingly. Over time, everyone also normalizes to this low level background aggression and in that way threat of coercion is no longer violence. Which is just the way people 'think' (if you want to call it that).
The Human Condition I suppose.
These things do have a way of working themselves out, in places like the EU or Japan, it's a collapse of population, with those in the EU opting for population replacement as the alternate solution. And thus their lineage and DNA is removed from the earth - a small price to pay for free roads.
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The Federal Reserve has morphed from being a faceless background institution of the most limited purpose to a clique of necromancers and astrologasters, led by one grand vizier, in full public view pretending to steer a gigantic economic vessel that has, in fact, lost its rudder and is drifting into a maelstrom.
-- James Howard Kunstler (American author, via his Blog)
-- James Howard Kunstler (American author, via his Blog)
Hmm, I went to his blog and didn't find that quotation. I was only able to find that quotation on a specious web site which caters to conspiracy kooks.
Blog Post: The Leviathan
Also of interest:
- In this regards, I disagree, I actually do believe science and technology are going to 'fix' a lot of the problems Statism has caused. Much like the God meme, the State meme and Statist Magic Thinking will give way to reality. It's inevitable. Not to mention, the EU seems to be going out of its way to show the endgame of "Democratic" Socialism / Statism. Not to mention, across the next 15 years most of the low skilled jobs will be replaced with robotics and some-level of functional "AI" (like self driving cars, medical diagnostics, VR, etc....). At the same time, children graduating from Private and Charter Schools will possess the skills needed to succeed in that economic reality (reasoning, heck, maybe even reading and writing). They'll probably put economic pressure on Government schools to change and mimic the most successful of the alternate education pedagogues (dumping Teachers Unions in the process). Then there's the internet as well as alternate energy sources.
Bright times ahead I say
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So you think your parents were aesthetically repugnant, ok. So you don't like your parents, ok. But that doesn't mean all parents were repugnant parents.
Get ready for this - most Baby Boomers didn't work for GM or the auto industry and most weren't even represented by unions. Unions have been steadily on the decline since 1954 when union membership, as a percentage of the workforce, peaked at 35% of non farm workers. The Taft-Hartley Act of 1947 effectively defanged unions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_unions_in_the_United_States#Post-World_War_II
A couple of things, first, your father was a union member, as previously pointed out most members of his generation were not. His union represented him and negotiated the price of his labor with his employer. That's a free market. Remember free markets, you are supposed to like free markets. Yeah, your father and his fellow workers were overpaid. But nothing forced his employers to sign those ridiculous labor agreements. And your father is not representative of most members of his generation. Contrary to your assertions, most were not represented by unions and most didn't work in the auto industry - those damn details again.
As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, the government did loan money to GM and secured its investment in GM with equity. That isn't stealing. The "govment" made money on the GM deal. That's the part you keep forgetting.
...and there weren't slum lords before or after? Slum lords and slums have been around since man began urbanization. Would you deny the poor homes to live in or do you want government owned housing? I thought you hated government. Two, slum lords have nothing to do with the monetary system. Slum lords do not create or manage monetary policy. And there is nothing coercive or mentally ill in renting to low income individuals.
The scary thing is you think any of that makes sense.
Blog Post: The Leviathan
Also of interest:
- In this regards, I disagree, I actually do believe science and technology are going to 'fix' a lot of the problems Statism has caused. Much like the God meme, the State meme and Statist Magic Thinking will give way to reality. It's inevitable. Not to mention, the EU seems to be going out of its way to show the endgame of "Democratic" Socialism / Statism. Not to mention, across the next 15 years most of the low skilled jobs will be replaced with robotics and some-level of functional "AI" (like self driving cars, medical diagnostics, VR, etc....). At the same time, children graduating from Private and Charter Schools will possess the skills needed to succeed in that economic reality (reasoning, heck, maybe even reading and writing). They'll probably put economic pressure on Government schools to change and mimic the most successful of the alternate education pedagogues (dumping Teachers Unions in the process). Then there's the internet as well as alternate energy sources.
Bright times ahead I say
If Kunstler wrote that, he is obviously pretty damn ignorant. He's a writer, not an economist.
Joepistole,
I don't have a problem with private unions, automotive or otherwise. SO long as everyone is allowed to freely trade - including NOT with those companies. The aesthetic quality of non-violent behavior is indeed subjective. A selfish adult is IMO repugnant.
The Government sticking the tax payer with a $11.2 Billion loss to bailout GM is not that. Why? Because if the next generation doesn't pay the tax money, they'll be put in jail. That's immoral behavior and this is objective. Worse still is the bailout of the banks - not only sticking the next generation will unknown trillions in lost future prosperity, it's altering everything about what the future will eventuate as. SO is inflation. That is stealing - which mainly hurts the poor. Again, objective.
Regarding slum-lording, yes, if you own your property, you're free to let it out at whatever price you would like. And, if we lived in a free society, that'd be perfectly fine. But we don't. We live in a highly regulated Statist society. Particularly in housing. Where to build, who can build what, etc..... All of this is highly regulated. And, right on cue, a slice of the Baby generation became a generation of SlumLords looking to pay for their early retirement on the backs of poor single mothers working three jobs to make rent. How nice. I'll tell you this, you don't see much of this in Japan, ironically enough (given the small amount of land to build on and 120 million people).
Don't worry, children will continue to be shoveled into daycare. And, without having been cuddled and loved all day every day by their mothers, many will have under-developed somatosensory cortices and develop cutting behaviors and eating disorders, which is okay because then they can be Rx'ed some SSRIs and dumped in State-run Government schools, graduate as functional illiterates, take low paying jobs in a rent-seeking fast food joint and pay on the T-Bonds for your generations SSI.
Nice
I don't have a problem with private unions, automotive or otherwise. SO long as everyone is allowed to freely trade - including NOT with those companies. The aesthetic quality of non-violent behavior is indeed subjective. A selfish adult is IMO repugnant.
The Government sticking the tax payer with a $11.2 Billion loss to bailout GM is not that. Why? Because if the next generation doesn't pay the tax money, they'll be put in jail. That's immoral behavior and this is objective. Worse still is the bailout of the banks - not only sticking the next generation will unknown trillions in lost future prosperity, it's altering everything about what the future will eventuate as. SO is inflation. That is stealing - which mainly hurts the poor. Again, objective.
Regarding slum-lording, yes, if you own your property, you're free to let it out at whatever price you would like. And, if we lived in a free society, that'd be perfectly fine. But we don't. We live in a highly regulated Statist society. Particularly in housing. Where to build, who can build what, etc..... All of this is highly regulated. And, right on cue, a slice of the Baby generation became a generation of SlumLords looking to pay for their early retirement on the backs of poor single mothers working three jobs to make rent. How nice. I'll tell you this, you don't see much of this in Japan, ironically enough (given the small amount of land to build on and 120 million people).
Don't worry, children will continue to be shoveled into daycare. And, without having been cuddled and loved all day every day by their mothers, many will have under-developed somatosensory cortices and develop cutting behaviors and eating disorders, which is okay because then they can be Rx'ed some SSRIs and dumped in State-run Government schools, graduate as functional illiterates, take low paying jobs in a rent-seeking fast food joint and pay on the T-Bonds for your generations SSI.
Nice
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Interesting chart:
The "Federal Accounts" is in large part the bonds in Social Security's trust fund account. "Other" is probably mainly life insurance companies and others with future obligations in fixed dollar amounts. They don't care if the $100,000 the widow gets when hubby dies 10 years from now will only pay her rent for 6 months. - They paid what they were obligated too.
Despite what Joepistole likes to note ("That is money the government owes to its self, so should not be counted as US debt.") every bond will be paid when it matures or when SS needs more (as now) and redeems some to pay to the retired etc. MORE than the current workers are paying in via their SS tax. - A rapidly growing problem as "baby boomers" retire and live longer. Automation is also making it worse - lower total labor cost and SS tax income for SS as the factory automates. Labor force participate rate, continues to fall or at least is not trying to return to normal. (I have not seen the latest data.)
Fortunately a side effect of five or so years of very low (artifically manipulated by governments of US, EU, England and Japan + others) interest rates, the average maturity date has increased as investors turned to the 30 and 10 year bonds to earn at least some significant amount of interest. Thus the interest on the current 18.1 trillion in debt has been locked in at an average of only 2.37% through 2026.
The Fed can raise rates without the US Treasury worrying about their debt service cost consuming the majority of all tax receipts if and when rates "normalize." All the new debt will pay higher rates than now as FED raises rates, but the amount of deficit to be financed is very small compared to 18.1 trillion.
Facts above partially from: http://seekingalpha.com/article/367...0pm3:1b44560:371d49c7eac7690a466ad7298a099f47 plus several more interesting graphs and charts there too.
The "Federal Accounts" is in large part the bonds in Social Security's trust fund account. "Other" is probably mainly life insurance companies and others with future obligations in fixed dollar amounts. They don't care if the $100,000 the widow gets when hubby dies 10 years from now will only pay her rent for 6 months. - They paid what they were obligated too.
Despite what Joepistole likes to note ("That is money the government owes to its self, so should not be counted as US debt.") every bond will be paid when it matures or when SS needs more (as now) and redeems some to pay to the retired etc. MORE than the current workers are paying in via their SS tax. - A rapidly growing problem as "baby boomers" retire and live longer. Automation is also making it worse - lower total labor cost and SS tax income for SS as the factory automates. Labor force participate rate, continues to fall or at least is not trying to return to normal. (I have not seen the latest data.)
Fortunately a side effect of five or so years of very low (artifically manipulated by governments of US, EU, England and Japan + others) interest rates, the average maturity date has increased as investors turned to the 30 and 10 year bonds to earn at least some significant amount of interest. Thus the interest on the current 18.1 trillion in debt has been locked in at an average of only 2.37% through 2026.
The Fed can raise rates without the US Treasury worrying about their debt service cost consuming the majority of all tax receipts if and when rates "normalize." All the new debt will pay higher rates than now as FED raises rates, but the amount of deficit to be financed is very small compared to 18.1 trillion.
Facts above partially from: http://seekingalpha.com/article/367...0pm3:1b44560:371d49c7eac7690a466ad7298a099f47 plus several more interesting graphs and charts there too.
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