The Trump Presidency

[Vociferous]

How come black people don't have the right to stand their ground and shoot deputies who act outside the law, if you believe it's ok for white people? If calling 911 made no difference, it would have been the right thing then to shoot Mr. Chauvin and his fellow deputies before they could kill George Floyd or shoot those coming to his rescue, right? Do purple people also get to stand their ground?

First, you seem to be ignorant of the sort of circumstances stand your ground laws cover. From all indications, Floyd's arrest was, itself, legit, seeing as he passed a counterfeit bill, was drunk, and was found in the driver's seat of a vehicle (DUI). He then resisted a fully lawful arrest, making stand your ground completely irrelevant. While no excuse for Chauvin's actions, had Floyd allowed them to put him in the car (instead of resisting, saying he was claustrophobic), there would have been no opportunity for his death. No one knows if calling 911 would have helped, because there's been no reports that anyone even tried. Shooting cops because they're making a legit arrest would provoke legally justified shootings by those and other responding officers. The lesson is that Chauvin will be tried and punished for his actions (already fired, charged, arrested, and wife filed for divorce), and that it's not wise to resist a legal arrest. In what world does that not also apply to whites or anyone else?

 

[arfa brane]

Woah. Moment.

I was recently looking at Bowie's Aladdin Sane, for reasons I want to keep to myself.
For some reason this led me to Steely Dan's Third World Man.

The first song is about young men being sent off to war (no joke, but it could be about young people being sent off to fight a pandemic); the second song is ostensibly about the singer's young son. Or, is it?

We have the lyrics "Watching him dash away, swinging an old bouquet (dead roses)". and "Donnie's playroom is a bunker filled with sand. He's become a third world man."

The third world is about where the US' medical system is now.
I call that a conspiracy of coincidence; entirely subjective of course. And let's recall that music is used and re-used in political satire, that beast of burden.

 

[CptBork]

First, you seem to be ignorant of the sort of circumstances stand your ground laws cover. From all indications, Floyd's arrest was, itself, legit, seeing as he passed a counterfeit bill, was drunk, and was found in the driver's seat of a vehicle (DUI). He then resisted a fully lawful arrest, making stand your ground completely irrelevant. While no excuse for Chauvin's actions, had Floyd allowed them to put him in the car (instead of resisting, saying he was claustrophobic), there would have been no opportunity for his death. No one knows if calling 911 would have helped, because there's been no reports that anyone even tried. Shooting cops because they're making a legit arrest would provoke legally justified shootings by those and other responding officers. The lesson is that Chauvin will be tried and punished for his actions (already fired, charged, arrested, and wife filed for divorce), and that it's not wise to resist a legal arrest. In what world does that not also apply to whites or anyone else?

There was no legitimacy in pinning George Floyd that way, and it seems everyone except Derek Chauvin acknowledged as much at the scene. So if 911 didn't immediately intervene, and we know the consequence was Mr. Floyd's death, you say it would have been legit for citizens to stand their ground and physically defend Mr. Floyd from the violation of his legal rights, including shooting the officers if necessary. If a black person shoots a white police officer and reports it was self defense of their legal rights with no evidence to contradict the claim, you will proclaim them a national hero standing up for their Constitutional rights, correct? What about when the officer is a purplatto?

 

[CptBork]

Warning: may trigger new Confederate uprising. Viewer discretion is advised.

 

[Vociferous]

There was no legitimacy in pinning George Floyd that way, and it seems everyone except Derek Chauvin acknowledged as much at the scene. So if 911 didn't immediately intervene, and we know the consequence was Mr. Floyd's death, you say it would have been legit for citizens to stand their ground and physically defend Mr. Floyd from the violation of his legal rights, including shooting the officers if necessary. If a black person shoots a white police officer and reports it was self defense of their legal rights with no evidence to contradict the claim, you will proclaim them a national hero standing up for their Constitutional rights, correct? What about when the officer is a purplatto?

No, you're still hopelessly confused about what stand your ground laws actually cover. They are irrelevant to this case, as any even half-informed person would readily know.
All four officers at the scene have been charged with murder and abetting murder, because it was their duty to intervene and protect the life of Floyd. Cops don't get to shoot people before they commit a crime, and neither do citizens. That seems to be a reality the left is oblivious to. Cops generally don't prevent crime. They just try to catch and punish perpetrators and with that and their presence hope to deter crime. And guess what, these murdering cops will be punished. It won't be the mob justice you seem to want, but it will be legal justice. You advocating for vigilantism is the sort of advise that will get more people killed. But that's the point, isn't it? You only care about black lives so far as they serve your political goals. Just like every Democrat ever. A faithful follower of the racist LBJ and the history of slavery, Jim Crow, the KKK, generational poverty by welfare, etc..

 

[CptBork]

No, you're still hopelessly confused about what stand your ground laws actually cover. They are irrelevant to this case, as any even half-informed person would readily know.
All four officers at the scene have been charged with murder and abetting murder, because it was their duty to intervene and protect the life of Floyd. Cops don't get to shoot people before they commit a crime, and neither do citizens. That seems to be a reality the left is oblivious to. Cops generally don't prevent crime. They just try to catch and punish perpetrators and with that and their presence hope to deter crime. And guess what, these murdering cops will be punished. It won't be the mob justice you seem to want, but it will be legal justice. You advocating for vigilantism is the sort of advise that will get more people killed. But that's the point, isn't it? You only care about black lives so far as they serve your political goals. Just like every Democrat ever. A faithful follower of the racist LBJ and the history of slavery, Jim Crow, the KKK, generational poverty by welfare, etc..

You said vigilanteism is ok when police come to take your guns away and you think it's illegal for them to do that, so why can't people use violent resistance when police do other stuff that people think is illegal? Those police officers said they were going to kill me and make it look like a suicide, so I uh... stood muh ground!

 

[Quantum Quack]

Shooting cops because they're making a legit arrest would provoke legally justified shootings by those and other responding officers.

so deliberately killing a man is a legitimate arrest?
You need to be careful of the terms you use..a dead man can not be arrested...
When you look carefully at the now famous "I can't breath" photo what strikes you odd about the cops left hand...?

 

[sculptor]

...
When you look carefully at the now famous "I can't breath" photo what strikes you odd about the cops left hand...?

What?

 

[Vociferous]

You said vigilanteism is ok when police come to take your guns away and you think it's illegal for them to do that, so why can't people use violent resistance when police do other stuff that people think is illegal? Those police officers said they were going to kill me and make it look like a suicide, so I uh... stood muh ground!

Welp, there's no accounting for your inability to understand stand your ground laws.

 

[CptBork]

Welp, there's no accounting for your inability to understand stand your ground laws.

I think you've explained them just fine. If the police attempt to remove the weapons you keep to overthrow governments that challenge systemic white privileges, you're entitled to shoot them even if they're not posing an imminent threat to your life. On the other hand if the police are in the process of killing or seriously harming a black person, one must call 911 (if they have a phone available) and wait patiently for them to decide whether it's important or not, and one deserves to be prosecuted if one tries to intervene (especially if they're black).

 

[douwd20]

when police feel their lives are in danger, they are allowed to use deadly force.

And only black men they are freighted of even ones running way and even ones lying on the ground handcuffed? You don't need to be a police officer if you're so afraid of dying. Get a desk job.

The good news is the world doesn't get Fox New or whatever Reich Wing and sees straight through the stunning hypocrisy.

Russia Jumps on Floyd Killing as Proof of U.S. Hypocrisy

US protests: Why China, Russia are celebrating George Floyd’s death

That picture might as well be in crayon for anything it does to make your point. It's a faulty comparison to just look at deaths between countries of very different population sizes. Be intellectually honest, for once, and look at the deaths per million of population: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

You'll see that the UK, Spain, Italy, Sweden, and France all have more deaths per million people than the US. Again, so by your own metric, these are all failed states. Right

I'm going to come back in one month then two months. As I said before the US is two months behind those countries when the virus arrived. It is not an accurate comparison to suggest how "well" the US is doing when the fire has just begun.

 

[iceaura]

When 13% of the population commits about 50% of the homicides and a disproportionate percent of all violent crimes, yes, police will have to use potentially deadly force disproportionately.

Homicides and violent crimes are not committed by unarmed men going about their ordinary business on the public streets and sidewalks, children playing in the local park or shopping at the local store, women sleeping in their own beds at night after a hard day's work, and so forth.

So you need another explanation for why the US police so often kill such people if they are black, but not nearly so often if they are white.

There is no inequity where the arrest rates match the crime rates

There is inequity when they don't - which is the case in almost all US cities.

Yes, when police feel their lives are in danger, they are allowed to use deadly force.

And they feel their lives are in danger whenever they are dealing with black people - even unarmed men, anyone driving a car, sleeping women, and young children.
It's called "racism".

I've read the Federalist Papers.

I call bullshit.
- - - -

You'll see that the UK, Spain, Italy, Sweden, and France all have more deaths per million people than the US.

The US got a later start - despite having had more time to prepare and more experience to learn from the US is catching up rapidly, even to those places that were caught by surprise in the first spread of the virus.

Also: those countries have First World public health care setups, which means they count their covid deaths more accurately - the US does not even test many of its likely covid deaths for cause of death.

 

[Vociferous]

I think you've explained them just fine. If the police attempt to remove the weapons you keep to overthrow governments that challenge systemic white privileges, you're entitled to shoot them even if they're not posing an imminent threat to your life. On the other hand if the police are in the process of killing or seriously harming a black person, one must call 911 (if they have a phone available) and wait patiently for them to decide whether it's important or not, and one deserves to be prosecuted if one tries to intervene (especially if they're black).

No, that's still just ignorant straw men. "If they have a phone available"? How else do you imagine all these people videoed the incident? See, that's the kind of irrational justifications you have to make up to maintain your biased and demonstrably uninformed views. Note: you're the only one repeatedly making this about race. OTOH, I would tell a black person with police coming to their door to disarm them of legally owned guns the exact same as I'd tell whites, just like I'd tell whites watching an officer's abuse of force the exact same as I'd tell blacks. Why, would you tell the two demographics to do different things? And if so, would you advise them do things that risk their lives because they're black and because they don't agree with you politically? If so, that's your own racial and/or ideological bigotry on display.

Rational people realize that if you killed that cop, and saved Floyd's life, you would have nothing to justify you murdering a cop. Just that you "thought" he was going to kill Floyd, even though he wasn't using a deadly weapon. That's why vigilante and mob justice are illegal, and Chauvin will be tried and punished. Law enforcement is not pre-crime. It can only bring justice once injustice has been done, not prevent all injustice from occurring. Rational adults know this. So it shouldn't be about advising people to do things that will put their lives at risk, but about finding ways to prevent future occurrences. The deterrent of Chauvin going to prison and the cops who neglected their duty to do something about it facing similarly dire punishments.

But God forfend you seek agreement across the political isle, when you can advocate blacks risking their lives for your political aims. How many black people must die to appease you?

And only black men they are freighted of even ones running way and even ones lying on the ground handcuffed? You don't need to be a police officer if you're so afraid of dying. Get a desk job.

The good news is the world doesn't get Fox New or whatever Reich Wing and sees straight through the stunning hypocrisy.

Russia Jumps on Floyd Killing as Proof of U.S. Hypocrisy

US protests: Why China, Russia are celebrating George Floyd’s death

The inconvenient fact for you is that cops kill more unarmed whites than blacks. Even when blacks have a higher rate of committing murder and violent crimes. Leaving out, that a criminal took a weapon off a cop before being shot or that the cop who killed someone in custody has already been fired, charged, arrested, and had his wife file for divorce, is intellectual dishonest at its finest. At least you can say you're an exemplar of something.

And what great allies you have in Russia and China. You know, discriminating against gays even showing PDQ and killing journalists or dissenters. You must be so proud.

I'm going to come back in one month then two months. As I said before the US is two months behind those countries when the virus arrived. It is not an accurate comparison to suggest how "well" the US is doing when the fire has just begun.

Covid numbers are starting to surge again in Europe too.

WHO regional director Hans Kluge warned that in 11 nations, "accelerated transmission has led to very significant resurgence that if left unchecked will push health systems to the brink once again in Europe."
https://www.france24.com/en/20200626-united-states-europe-battle-fresh-covid-19-surges​

Considering you've repeatedly made demonstrably faulty comparisons, we won't be taking your word on what is or is not a good one. Make sure you come back after we're eradicated Covid-19, have a more accurate idea about the death rate, and your are intellectually honest enough to compare deaths across similarly sized populations.

 

[paddoboy]

No, that's still just ignorant straw men.

 

[pjdude1219]

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...full-extent-of-the-systemic-bias-in-policing/

some analysis by people who understand statistics

 

[CptBork]

No, that's still just ignorant straw men. "If they have a phone available"? How else do you imagine all these people videoed the incident? See, that's the kind of irrational justifications you have to make up to maintain your biased and demonstrably uninformed views. Note: you're the only one repeatedly making this about race. OTOH, I would tell a black person with police coming to their door to disarm them of legally owned guns the exact same as I'd tell whites, just like I'd tell whites watching an officer's abuse of force the exact same as I'd tell blacks. Why, would you tell the two demographics to do different things? And if so, would you advise them do things that risk their lives because they're black and because they don't agree with you politically? If so, that's your own racial and/or ideological bigotry on display.

Rational people realize that if you killed that cop, and saved Floyd's life, you would have nothing to justify you murdering a cop. Just that you "thought" he was going to kill Floyd, even though he wasn't using a deadly weapon. That's why vigilante and mob justice are illegal, and Chauvin will be tried and punished. Law enforcement is not pre-crime. It can only bring justice once injustice has been done, not prevent all injustice from occurring. Rational adults know this. So it shouldn't be about advising people to do things that will put their lives at risk, but about finding ways to prevent future occurrences. The deterrent of Chauvin going to prison and the cops who neglected their duty to do something about it facing similarly dire punishments.

You started this whole discussion about killing cops by implying that George Floyd was somehow responsible for what happened to him. No, he is not responsible for his own murder any more than the city of Minneapolis is for hiring that officer. You're trying to pretend not to be racist, which means not cherrypicking the rules of society to favour pasty-faced Anglo-saxons like yourself, so let me give you a lil' tip. Next time a black cop kills an uncooperative armed white person in a legal arrest, I will expect you to defend the cop unconditionally for acting in self defense, same if a black person kills a white cop who's come to confiscate their weapons for any seemingly unconstitutional reason. If a white person gets shot dead by a black person, you will heap praise on the shooter for standing their ground and defend that right all the way until the moment they are proven otherwise guilty beyond any reasonable doubt in court.

But God forfend you seek agreement across the political isle, when you can advocate blacks risking their lives for your political aims. How many black people must die to appease you?

As many as are needed to die in order to achieve equal rights. Hopefully that amounts to zero deaths, but last time it took a civil war with millions of deaths to convince your ancestors to grant the most basic of rights to their slaves, and I would expect nothing different of you now. By the way, you need to have some sappy sentimental piano music playing in the background, it makes your false sympathy sound more plausible.

The inconvenient fact for you is that cops kill more unarmed whites than blacks. Even when blacks have a higher rate of committing murder and violent crimes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

The article states that from 2009-2012, 14.8% of all black people killed by police were unarmed, as opposed to 9.4% for whites and 5.8% for hispanics. Arrests resulted in 2.8x the fatality rate for blacks as opposed to whites. Stop pulling numbers from Stormfront.

And what great allies you have in Russia and China. You know, discriminating against gays even showing PDQ and killing journalists or dissenters. You must be so proud.

Yeah I'm so proud they were able to game the American system and put your man in the White House, and I'm so proud that he keeps going back to these fascists and asking them to help him get re-elected. I love it how you put an incompetent Republican white supremacist in charge instead of a strong, competent and principled leader who would sanction those two mass-murdering fucker states into bankruptcy.

Covid numbers are starting to surge again in Europe too.

WHO regional director Hans Kluge warned that in 11 nations, "accelerated transmission has led to very significant resurgence that if left unchecked will push health systems to the brink once again in Europe."
https://www.france24.com/en/20200626-united-states-europe-battle-fresh-covid-19-surges​

Considering you've repeatedly made demonstrably faulty comparisons, we won't be taking your word on what is or is not a good one. Make sure you come back after we're eradicated Covid-19, have a more accurate idea about the death rate, and your are intellectually honest enough to compare deaths across similarly sized populations.

Why don't you go listen to your heroic leader and chug down a nice cold bottle of Lysol? You accuse people of cheering for American deaths and here you are crossing your fingers and hoping Europeans start dropping like it's the Church spreading Bubonic plague all over again, just so you can look like less of an imbecile.

 

[Vociferous]

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...full-extent-of-the-systemic-bias-in-policing/

some analysis by people who understand statistics

Completely fails to account for the higher crime rate of blacks, as all such apologetics does.

You started this whole discussion about killing cops by implying that George Floyd was somehow responsible for what happened to him.

That's a complete lie, and I challenge you to show where you got this notion.

No, he is not responsible for his own murder any more than the city of Minneapolis is for hiring that officer. You're trying to pretend not to be racist, which means not cherrypicking the rules of society to favour pasty-faced Anglo-saxons like yourself, so let me give you a lil' tip. Next time a black cop kills an uncooperative armed white person in a legal arrest, I will expect you to defend the cop unconditionally for acting in self defense, same if a black person kills a white cop who's come to confiscate their weapons for any seemingly unconstitutional reason. If a white person gets shot dead by a black person, you will heap praise on the shooter for standing their ground and defend that right all the way until the moment they are proven otherwise guilty beyond any reasonable doubt in court.

I haven't defended Chauvin in the least little bit. He has been rightfully fired, charged, arrested, and being divorced. And a cop, of any color, killing an "uncooperative armed" person, of any color, in a legal arrest would likely be a justified killing. You're nonsensically conflating very different circumstances. And if you want to prejudge future cases based solely on race, that's your own racism. Most rational people know that each case can have very different circumstances. But yes, my opinion will always be consistently not based on race. Doesn't seem you could say the same.

How many black people must die to appease you?

As many as are needed to die in order to achieve equal rights.

Wow, what callous disregard for human life.

but last time it took a civil war with millions of deaths to convince your ancestors to grant the most basic of rights to their slaves

Not a Democrat, nor from the South, so not even my ideological ancestors. Too bad you can't say the same. You still align with the party of slavery, the KKK, Jim Crow, filibustering the Civil Rights Act, and still treating them as less than.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

The article states that from 2009-2012, 14.8% of all black people killed by police were unarmed, as opposed to 9.4% for whites and 5.8% for hispanics. Arrests resulted in 2.8x the fatality rate for blacks as opposed to whites. Stop pulling numbers from Stormfront.

Completely fails to account for disparate crime rates that directly lead to disparate encounters. Stop telling lies to poison the well.

And what great allies you have in Russia and China. You know, discriminating against gays even showing PDQ and killing journalists or dissenters. You must be so proud.

Yeah I'm so proud

Of your partisan ignorance too, it seems.

Why don't you go listen to your heroic leader and chug down a nice cold bottle of Lysol? You accuse people of cheering for American deaths and here you are crossing your fingers and hoping Europeans start dropping like it's the Church spreading Bubonic plague all over again, just so you can look like less of an imbecile.

Quit projecting your own callous disregard for human life.

 

[arfa brane]

American statues and emblematic depictions.

You probably know there are people in the US trying to pull down statues that are seen as emblematic of a racist theme. I can appreciate why people don't want to celebrate traitors and deserters, or people who visited genocide on natives.

I think that statue of Lincoln and the kneeling slave says a whole lot about where the problem is. Whoever designed it appears to have shown a complete disregard for the appearance of a white, privileged, well dressed man, standing over an almost naked one who has "taken the knee".

It depicts supplication by the kneeling man to the standing man; it says something like, "Ok, you're free now, but don't get any ideas about getting up off your knees". It's insensitive. Why didn't the artist depict Lincoln helping the man to his feet, stooping down some. Why wasn't it done like that? Why does it look like it has a racist theme?

Because there was endemic racism in America when it was commissioned. There still is. Statues aren't going to make it go away. The statue depicts how comfortable most people are, and how easy it is to be casual about it; this is what the statue's creator did too, depicting a certain comfortableness and casualness with something he probably didn't even really notice.

 

[iceaura]

The inconvenient fact for you is that cops kill more unarmed whites than blacks.

Nothing inconvenient about it, for anyone competent in the use of statistics - the word you overlooked is "disproportionate", the intellectual skill you do not possess is reasoning from statistical evidence,

and the agenda you are promoting here is the defense of racially organized violence by people protected from the direct consequences of their behavior by the wealthy and powerful - those who can employ their influence with the City, State, and Federal governments involved.

And a cop, of any color, killing an "uncooperative armed" person, of any color, in a legal arrest would likely be a justified killing.

Which makes the shortage of such killings when the armed person is white and "conservative" even more striking.
The racial disproportion in the killing of armed persons in the US is even more striking than that of killing the unarmed.

Completely fails to account for disparate crime rates that directly lead to disparate encounters

The crime rates are far less "disparate" than the killings - not even mentioning the severe abuses, cripplings for life, and so forth.

I haven't defended Chauvin in the least little bit.

You have attempted to exonerate the police force that defended and supported him throughout his career of racially disproportionate abuse and racist violence toward the residents of Minneapolis, and you have overlooked the obviously routine nature of the direct cooperation he received from his fellow officers in murdering Floyd.

And you have outright denied the instigations and promotions and furtherances of such violence by every Republican President and almost all Federal as well as State administrations since Nixon - a gathering trend that has continued to gain momentum under Trump.

Btw: Trump's buddy Putin has been - according to the documents recently obtained by third party investigators - putting bounties on the heads of US soldiers in Afghanistan. That aligns with the patterns we have seen from other foreign heads of State Trump likes and trusts and makes (personally) profitable deals with, such as Turkish autocrat Erdogan's threatening of American soldiers in Syria.

 

[douwd20]

No, that's still just ignorant straw men. "If they have a phone available"? How else do you imagine all these people videoed the incident? See, that's the kind of irrational justifications you have to make up to maintain your biased and demonstrably uninformed views. Note: you're the only one repeatedly making this about race. OTOH, I would tell a black person with police coming to their door to disarm them of legally owned guns the exact same as I'd tell whites, just like I'd tell whites watching an officer's abuse of force the exact same as I'd tell blacks. Why, would you tell the two demographics to do different things? And if so, would you advise them do things that risk their lives because they're black and because they don't agree with you politically? If so, that's your own racial and/or ideological bigotry on display.

Rational people realize that if you killed that cop, and saved Floyd's life, you would have nothing to justify you murdering a cop. Just that you "thought" he was going to kill Floyd, even though he wasn't using a deadly weapon. That's why vigilante and mob justice are illegal, and Chauvin will be tried and punished. Law enforcement is not pre-crime. It can only bring justice once injustice has been done, not prevent all injustice from occurring. Rational adults know this. So it shouldn't be about advising people to do things that will put their lives at risk, but about finding ways to prevent future occurrences. The deterrent of Chauvin going to prison and the cops who neglected their duty to do something about it facing similarly dire punishments.

But God forfend you seek agreement across the political isle, when you can advocate blacks risking their lives for your political aims. How many black people must die to appease you?


The inconvenient fact for you is that cops kill more unarmed whites than blacks. Even when blacks have a higher rate of committing murder and violent crimes. Leaving out, that a criminal took a weapon off a cop before being shot or that the cop who killed someone in custody has already been fired, charged, arrested, and had his wife file for divorce, is intellectual dishonest at its finest. At least you can say you're an exemplar of something.

And what great allies you have in Russia and China. You know, discriminating against gays even showing PDQ and killing journalists or dissenters. You must be so proud.

Covid numbers are starting to surge again in Europe too.

WHO regional director Hans Kluge warned that in 11 nations, "accelerated transmission has led to very significant resurgence that if left unchecked will push health systems to the brink once again in Europe."
https://www.france24.com/en/20200626-united-states-europe-battle-fresh-covid-19-surges​

Considering you've repeatedly made demonstrably faulty comparisons, we won't be taking your word on what is or is not a good one. Make sure you come back after we're eradicated Covid-19, have a more accurate idea about the death rate, and your are intellectually honest enough to compare deaths across similarly sized populations.

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