The Thing about UFOs...

Origin of UFOs

  • Extraterrestrials

    Votes: 10 20.0%
  • Man-made

    Votes: 10 20.0%
  • Both

    Votes: 21 42.0%
  • Neither

    Votes: 9 18.0%

  • Total voters
    50
I've already refuted the validity of "expert" testimony and Hoagland. There were some very pointed and logical refutations in the links -I can't be responsible for your inability to comprehend or understand them.

But who in the world are you to refute such expert testimony? You refuting such testimony is meaningless. Do so with facts rather than possibilities and comparative statistics and I will accept your opinion, but because you have not, and furthermore can't, I don't. I also cannot be responsible for your inability to comprehend the reality of non human technology. After all, that's the ONLY reason why you deny it's existence. That being because you can't personally understand it.

Indeed, this comprehension is problematic for you as demonstrated by your continued use of and inability to recognize fallacies in logical arguments.

Indeed, you have a problem seeing the flea for the elephants ass. The more you put things you don't and indeed cannot understand under your microscope, the more so you will miss the big picture. Don't let reality evade you like that. Become larger than your limited understanding.

Meanwhile, you childishly and prematurely herald your success and achievement in the "argument." Argumentation being one of your worst skills, this hardly seems possible much less probable.

The sad thing that has been shown, however, is that significanc-junkies, mystery-mongers, woo-woos, cranks and crackpots (a population to which you belong, unfortunately) are gullible and easily duped.

You Sir, have been duped by the most subtle and self convincing deceiver of all. Your socially influenced ego. EVERY great inventor, EVERY TRULY great scientist has been or is a "mystery monger". At one time or another, most ALL of them were referred to as "cranks and "crackpots" It's what drives these great men and women to explore and develop the as of yet unconquered realms of science. That which was called sci fi by those like yourself. Don't kid yourself SkinWalker. You KNOW this is a fact.

What I find fascinating is that you don't see the embarassment of boasting this and seem proud of it.

You could not have admitted your weak kneed egotism and cliquish influenced mentality anymore clearly if your were being tortured to confess like a Salem witch. That type of consciousness spews socially accepted correctness and is laughable at best.

We, therefore, accept your miserable concession to the argument, fallaciously claiming a "win" where not is evident and wish you a good time.

The only thing you need to work on accepting SkinWalker is your own fallibility and incredibly small minded understanding of our reality. To know that the universe contains far more that you don't know, than you do. If you had accepted just that much, we would have never have been in disagreement to begin with.

From here on out, I declare the thread rightfully hijacked and as good a place as any to criticize the woo-woo in his natural habitat since the opposing side is only interested in ending the discussion with "I won, woo-woo! Look at me, woo-woo!"

Spoken like a true comic book hero, but who's reading?

My next post will be a critique of significance-junkies and mystery-mongers in general.


I'll be waiting with baited breath.
 
You Sir, have been duped by the most subtle and self convincing deceiver of all. Your socially influenced ego. EVERY great inventor, EVERY TRULY great scientist has been or is a "mystery monger". At one time or another, most ALL of them were referred to as "cranks and "crackpots" It's what drives these great men and women to explore and develop the as of yet unconquered realms of science. That which was called sci fi by those like yourself. Don't kid yourself SkinWalker. You KNOW this is a fact.
Name two Nobel Laureates who were considered by their scientific peers to be cranks and crackpots.
 
Deconstruction of the Significance-Junkie and the Mystery-Monger

My next post will be a critique of significance-junkies and mystery-mongers in general.

One of the things I've noticed since posting at SciForums in the last 4-5 years is that it's a magnet for significance-junkies and mystery-mongers who seem to post crack-pot ideas because they think they're doing “science.” Having the word “science” as the prefix for our fair internet forum is one of the draws to these crackpots, that ours is a culture that doesn't run off those that would be considered outright trolls at other forums probably encourages them.

But hey, the more the merrier I say. Also, crackpots, cranks, nuts and woo-woos create lively discussion. I have fond memories of crazymikey, craterchains (Norval), and one or two others. Spookz never really went away.

Let me offer a few definitions.

Significance-junkie: someone who finds undo significance in rather mundane or prosaic things that defy that person's explanations. The significance-junkie will frequently make appeals to ignorance, popularity, authority, and belief.

Mystery-monger: someone who looks for mystery. Everywhere. Conspiracies exist comfortably in the mind of the mystery-monger, who, while ready to appeal to authority, only does so selectively. The government is covering up UFOs and cannot be trusted, but a colonel who claims he saw space aliens is believable even though he's a part of the very government covering up their existence. Its the cake-and-eat-it-too fallacy, also known as special pleading. Mostly, though, the mystery-mongers seem to make deductive and inductive fallacies since they're unaccustomed to critical thought and logical argumentation.

Pseudoscience: no need to look anything up in a dictionary here. Pseudo-, meaning 'fake' and science, which is a way of logically and rationally observing the universe attempting to offer legitimate explanations. Pseudoscience is, therefore, fake science. It's done by using scientific-sounding terms and a pretense of being rational. Unfortunately, the pseudoscience proponent misapplies terminology, uses nonsense terms, fails to rationalize arguments with sound or cogent premises, and so on. Sometimes this is intentional, mostly it's probably unintentional and just a result of poor education, critical thinking skills, or psychological failings.

Woo-woo – Like the train's whistle, the woo-woo is trying to gain attention. He's the mystery-monger and the significance-junkie rolled into one. He wants validation and is often self-aggrandizing -with a personality that screams “its all about me” and my beliefs/worldview/perspective/etc. The woo-woo hates to have his conclusions criticized and questioned. This is sacrilegious to the woo-woo and he'll typically respond on the internet with hatred, vile comments, accusations, name-calling, etc. and so on.

That's not to say the woo-woo doesn't receive his fair share of the same, but the difference is the woo-woo will almost always be first to do so and will always, always respond in-kind with such ad hominem criticisms. Indeed, the woo-woo sees criticism and inquiry as an insult to his intelligence and considers either to be threats to his self-image.

Electrafixtion is a woo-woo. A mystery-monger and a significance-junkie.

I don't feel the least bit guilty of making that statement having explained in detail how these labels are defined. Electrafixtion (and many others before him: isufos, ufotheatre, btimsah, etc) come to science forums for the sole purpose of picking fights with skeptics. Then they complain about the “unfair” treatment, “oppression,” and name-calling.

They don't want discussion. They're not interested in, nor are they intellectually capable of, true discourse with rationally minded people on an academic level. Indeed, an academic level is the antithesis of their very worldview and, likewise, threatens the fallacious conclusions to which they've already arrived and rooted themselves in.

The vast majority of electrafixtion's posts at SciForums have been within this very thread. The very first post of his in this thread was to state,
ANYBODY that denies the basic premise that UFOs are REAL and controlled either by occupants or remotely is a complete moron. DON'T waste your time even responding.
Clearly, this woo-woo has no desire for intellectual discourse; he considers his own position beyond reproach; and isn't interested in hearing arguments to the contrary.

Yet they came anyway.

One person noted that NASA, the unquestioned authority on “aeronautics” and “space” in the world, has the position that space aliens visiting Earth is nonsense.

Electrafixtion responded with:
Maybe that's why they are all over NASA footage
This notion was handily refuted with very prosaic and mundane explanations in following posts, but do you think electrafixtion would acknowledge these explanations and their more rational, parsimonious, and probable qualities.

Nope. Not in the least.

This is because electrafixtion, like all woo-woo's, has conclusions to which he has already arrived at and wants nothing to do with data or information that are not supportive of these conclusions. He's rather like the 15th century townsfolk that just know the reason for the failure of their crops is due to witchcraft. The woo-woo will burn his critics to the stake before admitting the barest possibility of being wrong.

On the internet anyway.

Truth be told, the woo-woo is probably very non-confrontational in real life. If he has the courage to bring his theories up in casual conversation, he does so only after a bit of encouragement or indication that others might have an interest in them. After all, he wants gratification and affirmation, not rejection and ridicule. In real life, the fear of ridicule and facing critics is so great he'll likely just shut up or walk away at the first sign of rejection or questioning. Perhaps this is why electrafixtion is so quick to accuse his critics here of being “fearful.”

He doesn't have to face either of us on the internet and risks nothing in the anonymity of his attempts at riposte. The fear he normally feels is absent, but he's aware of it, if only subconsciously, which causes him to project that accusation so easily. He probably believes that all people feel that sort of fear. In a way, it's saddening to realize that there are those out there that are unable to express themselves in person to their potential critics. I imagine electrafixtion shouts aloud when he reads some of our posts -perhaps he's already exploded in profane utterance as he's reached this point, realizing that he's more transparent that he'd like to think.

I'm sure he'll respond with some sort of attempt at riposte, similar to his self-declaration of being a “winner” in his imaginary debate. The debate where the rational players mostly asked questions that received circular and otherwise fallacious answers if any answer at all.
 
Skinwalker,
as always a masterful and scholarly post that cuts to the heart of the matter with all the skill of a literary surgeon. I would be interested - and this is not an example of my frequently applied irony - to see a similar dissection of those of us, such as you and I, who invest time and effort in countering the nonsense the woo-woos and mystery mongers dispense.

In the meantime I'm going to take a shorter, though less elegant road to satisfaction and note, not for the first time, that electrafixtion and his kin are simply fools.
 
Skinwalker,
as always a masterful and scholarly post that cuts to the heart of the matter with all the skill of a literary surgeon. I would be interested - and this is not an example of my frequently applied irony - to see a similar dissection of those of us, such as you and I, who invest time and effort in countering the nonsense the woo-woos and mystery mongers dispense.

In the meantime I'm going to take a shorter, though less elegant road to satisfaction and note, not for the first time, that electrafixtion and his kin are simply fools.

Oph, I agree completely with that last statement.;)

As to those of us who spend time on these people, I can offer at least a partial explanation of our efforts. We have an inherent desire to set the record straight and to try and stamp out ignorance, idiocy, foolishness, etc.

I could say much, much more but I believe that cuts straight to the heart of the matter.
 
I like how you guys are using "we" and "us". Groupthink mentality much?
Now I understand you are all in the later years of your life so I cant blame you much for it.

Have fun in your little box, and ill have fun outside it.

Promoting close-mindedness is not something people normally would be happy about. Completely dismissing something tens of thousands of people have experienced to mundane explanations insults all those witnesses. You really have no idea what they did or did not see, all you have is speculation. You accuse us of being blinded but you might want to look at yourselves.

Oh and did you watch the video I posted a page back?
 
I like how you guys are using "we" and "us". Groupthink mentality much?
Now I understand you are all in the later years of your life so I cant blame you much for it.

Have fun in your little box, and ill have fun outside it.

Promoting close-mindedness is not something people normally would be happy about. Completely dismissing something tens of thousands of people have experienced to mundane explanations insults all those witnesses. You really have no idea what they did or did not see, all you have is speculation. You accuse us of being blinded but you might want to look at yourselves.

Oh and did you watch the video I posted a page back?

Nope, wrong again. The REAL problem here is that you are much too young, uneducated, naive and willing to accept ANYTHING that supports your fantasy. It requires a degree of maturity - which you are lacking - in order to distinguish fact from fiction.

I don't care HOW many of those witnesses are insulted. Tens of thousands have also seen ghosts and spirits, too, and I don't hesitate to insult them either.

When you finally show me some PHYSICAL proof - not videos, not witnesses, not some nut on a soapbox - then I will be more than happy to change my mind. In fact, I'd really LIKE to!!! That's the truth.

When you get a little older and smarter (hopefully, though there's some doubt about that), you will be TOTALLY embarrassed by what you believe today.:D
 
Promoting close-mindedness is not something people normally would be happy about.
I'm not. But you are young, so I am prepared to forgive you for it.
Completely dismissing something tens of thousands of people have experienced to mundane explanations insults all those witnesses.
If the cap fits, wear it.
The only insult is one they perpetrate on themselves.
And I certainly don't recall where I dismissed 100% of the witnesses. Perhaps you can remind me of the post. At my age the senior moments increase in frequency.
You accuse us of being blinded but you might want to look at yourselves.
I have a permanent self evaluation program in place. You should try it.
 
I'm glad EndLightEnd mentioned "thinking out the box" and being "closed-minded."

Since I've listed several logical fallacies he and other have relied upon in their argumentation, its only fair that I discuss this also.

These are arguments that the significance-junkie and the mystery-monger will nearly always get to eventually. From their perspective, they're being "open-minded" and they're "thinking out of the box." And, since its considered pejorative to accuse someone of not being "open-minded" or not "thinking out of the box," it fits well with their style of argumentation.

But here's why these are fallacious tools in the hands of the mystery-monger and significance-junkie:

Open-mindedness: being open-minded means being willing to accept both being right and being wrong. Most rational thinkers, like the skeptics here, willingly accept the possibility of being wrong. Indeed, when faced with extraordinary evidence, extraordinary claims become more and more probable. I've stated several times, and Ophiolite has at least once, that we'd like nothing more than the ETI hypothesis for the UFO phenomenon to be the explanation. To that we keep an open-mind but are forced to be skeptical of irrational, ill-though out, and uncritical claims that are, frequently, so highly speculative as to be rendered science fiction.

Thinking out of the box - This is fine. Indeed, speculation is the beginning of all hypotheses. The ETI hypothesis is a fine example of thinking out of the box and every skeptic has considered it. The problem is, just because an idea is "out of the box" doesn't imply its a good idea. The idea must still withstand critical and rational scrutiny before it can be elevated any higher than hypothesis. It must be, potentially, falsifiable and testable. And then it must survive the testing phase.

The ETI hypothesis *is* testable and potentially falsifiable. It hasn't survived the testing phase. It *is* out of the box, but then so is the notion that I can move through a wall or allow a bus to pass through me simply by willing my atoms to pass through the empty spaces between the atoms of the wall or the bus.

Regardless of how I feel about this "out of the box" idea, I'm not running into walls and stepping in front of buses.

I would say the degree to which a woo-woo is committed to an "out of the box" idea is directly proportional to the risk to the woo-woo.
 
lol, 1,2,3 with you guys, your like a mob. Im 25, and I do admit the possibility its just a "natural phenomena".

I however do not need the picture laid out in front of me, I am capable of putting the pieces together. Pieces spanning thousands of people and years. Pieces you dont think fit together.

There is no way to logically prove the existence of UFOs because logic relies on causality, without causality logic doesnt exist. If you only observe the effect of something and the experience does not fit in with ANY of the other experiences you have had as a human, of course we will assign a cause to it so that it makes sense for us. Its only human.

But in the end, without any proof, it comes down to belief. People do not like to have their beliefs challenged, hence all the unnecessary anger.
 
But in the end, without any proof, it comes down to belief. People do not like to have their beliefs challenged, hence all the unnecessary anger.

Perhaps then, alien visiting believers might want to learn that holding their angst-ridden beliefs aren't of any value to them or anyone else.
 
Name two Nobel Laureates who were considered by their scientific peers to be cranks and crackpots.

The Nobel Prize? You mean the hallmark of the scientific social elite? You silly ignorAmos & Andy. That's like asking me to name two other presidents that are buried along with Grant in his tomb.


To EndLightEnd - You are PRECISELY right on the money with respect to pointing out the brash elementary clique mentality in this thread. Don't let them fool you with their repetitive circular logic. In the end, their proposed arguments at very best just represent more of the "it's this way because I say it's this way" positioning. They don't have one single fact to back up their ridiculous refutations of the absolute and undeniable expert testimony of first hand witnesses. ZERO. They play all the games they like but truth is, they're just dancing.

Let's look at Oph's crack pot question. Talk about tainted reasoning.

What do the following group of exceedingly important contributors and undeniably capable and brilliant scientists have in common?

Ransome Eli Olds
Nikola Tesla
Thomas Edison
Jacques-Yves Cousteau
Leo Hendrik Baekeland
Norman Joseph Woodland
Charles Richard Drew
Kathering J. Blodgett
George Washington Carver
Luther Burbank
John William Mauchly
Philo Taylor Farnsworth
Henry Ford
Robert Hutchings Goddard
Ida Henrietta Hyde
Karl Gothe Jansky
Edwin Herbert Land
Sir Robert Alexander Watson
Jonas Salk
Bernard Schmidt
Wilbur and Orville Wright

I picked these scientist/inventors because they are primarily high profile individuals who's impact on society and who's scientific impact on the scientific minds of today has been so great that their excellence and brilliance as scientists are completely and totally undeniable.

(how's that for a run on sentence!?)

Not one of them is a Nobel Laureate!

MANY of them were sternly ridiculed by their peers and talked about as quacks among them. Thank goodness they weren't deterred by the clique eh?

You cliquers "here" are no different. All your proverbial gum flapping does is provide ample evidence of your pride.

The point here is that you don't get into that little fraternal Nobel clique unless you are first deemed fashionably acceptable. I mean, shit, Al Gore won the Nobel prize. What does that tell you?
 
So electrafixtion, you've given up trying to make a point and decided to go off on a tangent?

BTW, Orville and Wilbur Wright were not scientists. Neither was Henry Ford. Engineers, patent holders, and business men yes, but scientists? No.
 
So electrafixtion, you've given up trying to make a point and decided to go off on a tangent?

BTW, Orville and Wilbur Wright were not scientists. Neither was Henry Ford. Engineers, patent holders, and business men yes, but scientists? No.

Nope, I absolutely and unequivocally WON the argument about some UFOs being non human technology. NO ONE here can factually refute expert testimony. You MUST in order to deny it. Most assuredly. Incidentally, my post is right on topic and was a direct response to Oph. Blame him.

Who are you to say that the Wright Brothers were not scientists? That's bullshit. Henry ford developed and tested to working efficiency the automobile assembly line. He was a scientist for certain. MANY scientists hold degrees in Engineering. MANY scientists hold patents. To say otherwise is foolishness to the max.
 
Scientists will always be criticized and ridiculed by their peers. This is something that they know going into it when presenting research. And its why they carefully test their hypotheses and bounce them off of friends, asking them to be as ruthlessly critical as they can -calling into question any "fact" or assumption if there is legitimate reason.

And, when they finally go "public" to the rest of their peers by publishing or presenting for review, they're willing to accept genuine criticism and critique, since this allows them to modify their posititions and revise their perspectives for the better. Sometimes it allows them to abandon poor thinking altogether.

But not a single Nobel Laureate is, today, considered to be a crackpot or crank by his peers -and that was Ophiolite's point. Moreover, not "every" engineer, inventor, or scientist was a "mystery-monger" or a "significance-junkie." Nor were many considered to be crackpots. Some, but very few.

Mystery-mongers (like yourself) are those that crave mystery and not answers. They pretend to want answers, but ignore plausible explanations that actually work in order to stick with the mystery and their preconceived notions about it.

In otherwords, 1) nearly every engineer, inventor and scientist on your list was curious, but this doesn't imply "mystery-monger. 2) nearly every engineer, inventor, and scientist on your list would have been happy to revise or at least consider alternative possibilities or explanations for their observations; 3) your list of engineers, inventors, and scientists is still an appeal to authority (a logical fallacy of thinking) since you're trying to equate greatness with your own woo-woo ideas. This also demonstrates self-aggrandizing behavior -which happens to be a symptom of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
 
The Nobel Prize? You mean the hallmark of the scientific social elite? You silly ignorAmos & Andy.
So, you can't name two Nobel laureates who were thought to be crackpots by their peers. A simple no would suffice.
That's like asking me to name two other presidents that are buried along with Grant in his tomb.
No, it is nothing like that. Once again you display to the rest of us a singular inability to use logic.

Now, would you care to provide citations that demonstrate Cousteau and Henry Ford were thought to be crackpots and cranks by their peers. You remember Cousteau and Ford? They were in your list of individuals who were thought to be crackpots and cranks by their peers. So this time I am working with your lists, even though neither of them was a scientist - one was an explorer, the other a businessman and engineer.
I think SkinwWalker's points on this are relevant, but I am still curious to see if you can actually produce anything to support your contentions, other than more arm waving.
 
Just the facts SkinWalker old boy. It's not about me. It's about the experts who's testimony conflicts with your incorrect assertions. Period. Nothing grandiose about me or my feelings about myself whatsoever. You are simply wrong and are AFRAID to admit it.
 
So, you can't name two Nobel laureates who were thought to be crackpots by their peers. A simple no would suffice.
No, it is nothing like that. Once again you display to the rest of us a singular inability to use logic.

Now, would you care to provide citations that demonstrate Cousteau and Henry Ford were thought to be crackpots and cranks by their peers. You remember Cousteau and Ford? They were in your list of individuals who were thought to be crackpots and cranks by their peers. So this time I am working with your lists, even though neither of them was a scientist - one was an explorer, the other a businessman and engineer.
I think SkinwWalker's points on this are relevant, but I am still curious to see if you can actually produce anything to support your contentions, other than more arm waving.


Sir, I know you most likely paid that kid next to you for the answers to your homework each day, but I'm all done doing yours for you. Learn how to use Google and either disprove me or learn something for a change.
 
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