The Swing of a Pendulum

1. You create a unit of measure of distance using the speed of light.
2. I claim I can use that definition to define an absolute frame of reference and use that to measure absolute velocity while also knowing the relative velocity of any two objects.
3. You claim the results are incorrect and don't agree with your experimental results.
4. I claim my results are 100% in line with defined terms.
5. If you claim I am wrong, and I am in line with terms, then what you have on your hands is a bunch of BS useless experimental evidence that agrees with a BS theory. BS theory should have BS results, and that is what you have!
Your error starts with #3: the MM experiment is a version of your experiment as well, so it is your prediction that doesn't agree with the experimental result. No experiment ever devised contradicts Relativity and yours is no exception.

For #4....you have no results. Only an incorrect claim (prediction) about what the results would be for your experiment, based on your incorrect formulation of Relativity (see #3...).

#5. Experimental evidence can never be useless in science. It is fact. Data. Incorrect conclusions can be drawn from it, but that's not what we have here anyway. What we have is you claiming an experimental result that doesn't happen. That necessitates that you believe all physicists (and others who understand Relativity) are liars. So the only way to convince you would be for you to conduct the experiments yourself.
 

Fine, so you have a watch and a ruler, and the watch elapses time and the distance between the rockets stayed the same. No change in distance means no change in relative velocity. So on one hand your velocity measurements say that you are not accelerating, and on the other hand your pendulum which indicates a change in velocity says you are accelerating. Which is it?
 
Fine, so you have a watch and a ruler, and the watch elapses time and the distance between the rockets stayed the same. No change in distance means no change in relative velocity. So on one hand your velocity measurements say that you are not accelerating, and on the other hand your pendulum which indicates a change in velocity says you are accelerating. Which is it?
It is both. You are accelerating with respect to one frame but not accelerating with respect to another. The problem is, you think that "other" frame is The Universal Reference Frame, but it isn't.
 
It is both. You are accelerating with respect to one frame but not accelerating with respect to another. The problem is, you think that "other" frame is The Universal Reference Frame, but it isn't.

There is only one frame. There is no motion in that frame!
 
All your measurements of velocity are relative to the other ship. You don't have an absolute velocity, you only have a relative velocity.

Correct. You also can detect your own acceleration through trivial means. So you can choose your own frame and then measure your own velocity relative to THAT without needing another ship. That's how modern navigational IMU's work.
 
Correct. You also can detect your own acceleration through trivial means. So you can choose your own frame and then measure your own velocity relative to THAT without needing another ship. That's how modern navigational IMU's work.

When you "detect" acceleration you are detecting change in velocity in the absolute frame. The pendulum only swings when the velocity changes in the absolute frame!
 
Fine, so you have a watch and a ruler, and the watch elapses time and the distance between the rockets stayed the same. No change in distance means no change in relative velocity.

Exactly right.

So on one hand your velocity measurements say that you are not accelerating,

No, your measurement clearly shows that there is no velocity change between the 2 ships it says nothing about any acceleration. Why is this so difficult for you?

and on the other hand your pendulum which indicates a change in velocity says you are accelerating. Which is it?

You are accelerating, the other ship is also accelerating Which is why the relative velocity between the ships does not change. Quite simple.
 
When you "detect" acceleration you are detecting change in velocity in the absolute frame.

Nope. There is no need for an absolute frame to detect velocity changes. Again, measuring it yourself in a completely enclosed rocket ship is trivial. You don't need to see the other rocket to know your velocity has changed.

The pendulum only swings when the velocity changes in the absolute frame!

Nope again. It swings when your velocity changes, no matter what frame you choose.
 
When you "detect" acceleration you are detecting change in velocity in the absolute frame.

What do you mean by that?

The pendulum only swings when the velocity changes in the absolute frame!

That is a meaningless statement. If a rocket leaves the earth it is accelerating from the earths reference frame to a new inertial frame it has nothing to do with an absolute frame.
 
No, your measurement clearly shows that there is no velocity change between the 2 ships it says nothing about any acceleration. Why is this so difficult for you?


You really don't understand acceleration do you? Your velocity is dependent on the distance between you and the other ship. You don't believe in a absolute velocity, remember? How can you claim an acceleration when your velocity clearly remains at zero as your clock elapses time?
 
You really don't understand acceleration do you?

Nope I have a pretty good grasp on acceleration.

Your velocity is dependent on the distance between you and the other ship.

Your velocity is measured against whatever object you choose.

You don't believe in a absolute velocity, remember?

It is not a matter of belief it is simply that fact that you cannot detect absolute velocity.

How can you claim an acceleration when your velocity clearly remains at zero as your clock elapses time?

I would not measure my acceleration based on the other ship since it is accelerating at the same rate - I would use your pendulem. That would work fine.
 
There is only one frame. There is no motion in that frame!
Ehem:
When you "detect" acceleration you are detecting change in velocity in the absolute frame. The pendulum only swings when the velocity changes in the absolute frame!
Like I said, you think the other frame is The Universal Reference Frame (aka, "absolute"). But you're wrong. There are an infinite number of different frames you could choose as your reference, all with different velocities wrt the spaceships and all would show the acceleration. These are called "inertial reference frames".

Examples:

Rockets R1 and R2 are stationary with respect to each other at the start of the experiment. I'll define three additional frames, F1, F2 and F3.

F1 is comoving with R1 and R2 at the start of the experiment, but is not attached to the spacecraft.
F2 is arbitrarily defined such that the velocity of the spaceships with respect to F2 is 10 m/s.
F3 is arbitrarily defined such that the velocity of the spaceships with respect to F3 is 20 m/s.

Both rockets fire their engines and their accelerometers and clocks tell them they've gained 10 m/s. So now:

With respect to F1, they are now moving at 10 m/s.
With respect to F2, they are now moving at 20 m/s.
With respect to F3, they are now moving at 30 m/s.

So there are three examples of reference frames from which the same acceleration is measured. There are an infinite number more. And. None. Of. Them. Are. Absolute.

By the way, except for the last line, this has nothing whatsoever to do with Einstein's Relativity. Galileo understood this aspect of relativity perfectly well, 500 years ago. He just thought that though all of the frames behaved the same, there was still some other way that one of them might be absolute. Galileo understood that even if the absolute frame existed, your thought experiment would not reveal it.
 

No, Really.

Your relative velocity is measured against anything you choose.

Yep, you can only measure velocity relative to something.

Your absolute velocity is measured against the light sphere.

Well that wouldn't work very well at all! If I was in a space ship traveling 1 kps relative to earthe or in a ship traveling 1000 kps relative to earth a light sphere would expand outward from both ships identically. Now that is a pretty crappy spedometer!

The ONLY time the pendulum swings is when the absolute velocity changes!

Thats a silly way to put it. If you accelerate your velocity changes it is that simple. Whether you can detect what your velocity is makes absolutely no difference. If you wake up in a in a room with a wieghtless enviorment in total darkness you will have no idea if you are moving or stationary. If you slam into the wall you will have detected an accleration without having any idea what your velocity was or now is.
 
Ehem: Like I said, you think the other frame is The Universal Reference Frame (aka, "absolute"). But you're wrong. There are an infinite number of different frames you could choose as your reference, all with different velocities wrt the spaceships and all would show the acceleration. These are called "inertial reference frames".

Examples:

Rockets R1 and R2 are stationary with respect to each other at the start of the experiment. I'll define three additional frames, F1, F2 and F3.

F1 is comoving with R1 and R2 at the start of the experiment, but is not attached to the spacecraft.
F2 is arbitrarily defined such that the velocity of the spaceships with respect to F2 is 10 m/s.
F3 is arbitrarily defined such that the velocity of the spaceships with respect to F3 is 20 m/s.

Both rockets fire their engines and their accelerometers and clocks tell them they've gained 10 m/s. So now:

With respect to F1, they are now moving at 10 m/s.
With respect to F2, they are now moving at 20 m/s.
With respect to F3, they are now moving at 30 m/s.

So there are three examples of reference frames from which the same acceleration is measured. There are an infinite number more. And. None. Of. Them. Are. Absolute.


Ehem: What you have described are three different relative velocities between three different objects. In the big picture all of those objects have an absolute velocity measured against the light sphere. Do you understand what the definition of the meter is?



By the way, except for the last line, this has nothing whatsoever to do with Einstein's Relativity. Galileo understood this aspect of relativity perfectly well, 500 years ago. He just thought that though all of the frames behaved the same, there was still some other way that one of them might be absolute. Galileo understood that even if the absolute frame existed, your thought experiment would not reveal it.

Not only does my thought experiment reveal it, my thought experiment shows that there exist a frame in which the pendulum swings. No other frame does the pendulum swing except for the absolute frame!
 
No, Really.

Bull!



Yep, you can only measure velocity relative to something.

So what's all the acceleration about when the pendulum swings and the measure of your velocity is remaining constant?



Well that wouldn't work very well at all! If I was in a space ship traveling 1 kps relative to earthe or in a ship traveling 1000 kps relative to earth a light sphere would expand outward from both ships identically. Now that is a pretty crappy spedometer!

Newsflash........Spaceships have volume, and volume has an interior space....stay tuned for more live info..........



Thats a silly way to put it. If you accelerate your velocity changes it is that simple. Whether you can detect what your velocity is makes absolutely no difference.

Acceleration is the rate of change of velocity. In order to claim an acceleration you first must have a change in velocity. What is the change in velocity?
 
So what's all the acceleration about when the pendulum swings and the measure of your velocity is remaining constant?

You are the only one that thinks the velocity doesn't change. The rest of the world and I are just pointing out that without a reference you won't know what the velocity is.

Newsflash........Spaceships have volume, and volume has an interior space....stay tuned for more live info..........

I assume this has some sort of meaning to you?

Acceleration is the rate of change of velocity. In order to claim an acceleration you first must have a change in velocity. What is the change in velocity?

Gee that is a tough one. Lets use your example from earlier. You said that the acceleration was 20 m/s^2 for 1 second. The velocity change would be 20 m/s.
 
Gee that is a tough one. Lets use your example from earlier. You said that the acceleration was 20 m/s^2 for 1 second. The velocity change would be 20 m/s.

I didn't say the acceleration was 20 m/s^2 for this thought experiment. I was giving an example of an acceleration. What are your measurements to support your hypothesis that the rocket is accelerating?
 
You really don't understand acceleration do you? Your velocity is dependent on the distance between you and the other ship. You don't believe in a absolute velocity, remember? How can you claim an acceleration when your velocity clearly remains at zero as your clock elapses time?
Except that it doesn't. The inertial frame associated the vehicles initially do not change when the vehicles accelerate. Instead the vehicles move through a sequence of frames, finishing in a final inertial frames once they stop accelerating. They are always at the same distance from one another but they know there has been a change of velocity, they measured the acceleration. In the original initial frame they are now moving at some speed. In their new inertial frame they are not, but in that frame they were moving initially.

Your assertion that the velocity always stays zero is not true. The 'relative velocity' is not between the vehicles but between the vehicles and some frame. Which frame doesn't matter, it shouldn't matter.

Time and time and time again you show you don't know what a frame is in kinematics. The problem isn't with the notion of relative velocity, it is with your understanding of it. The vehicles cannot say what their velocities are absolutely but they don't need to. Instead they can say what their velocities are (say) V relative to some inertial frame. They are not required to pick the inertial frame they are in at that moment, they can pick any inertial frame.

Let's consider the Newtonian concept of frames, without the need for an absolute reference frame. Frames are choices of coordinates. In Frame 1 a car is at $$x = x_{0}$$ at time t, having started at position $$x_{0}$$ and not moving in those coordinates. The car now accelerates with acceleration a for time T, starting at t=0. It will end up at speed aT. It covered a distance $$\frac{1}{2}aT^{2}$$ in that time so it'll be at position $$x(t) = \frac{1}{2}aT^{2} + (aT)(t-T)$$. We are still working in the original inertial frame, since we're describing the motion in terms of the original (x,t) coordinates. We could now say "I want to work in the new inertial frame, where the car is now at rest". Then we need to do the Galilean transform x' = x-vt = x - (aT)t[/tex] and we'll shift our time coordinates too, $$t' = t-T$$. Reversing these relationships we have $$t = t' + T$$ and $$x = x' + (aT)t = x' + (aT)(t'+T)$$.

Then $$x(t) = \frac{1}{2}aT^{2} + (aT)(t-T)$$ becomes $$x' - (aT)(t'+T) = \frac{1}{2}aT^{2} + (aT)t'$$ so $$x' = -(aT)(t'+T) + \frac{1}{2}aT^{2} + (aT)t' = -\frac{1}{2}aT^{2}$$. No t' dependence, the car is stationary in the new frame (as required by its definition!). Adding in a second car doesn't change this, it would just have a position L more than the first car. They would both experience acceleration, pendulums would swing, they are always a constant distance apart. The cars can measure the acceleration and at the end they have a non-zero speed with respect to the initial inertial frame and conversely at the start they have a non-zero speed with respect to the final inertial frame. No need to talk about absolute frames and your assertions about there being a problem measuring this is nonsense.

The relativistic version of what I described uses Lorentz transforms, not Galilean ones, but the methods and qualitative results are identical. The problem is that you don't grasp how 'frames' work within relativity (or even basic Newtonian mechanics). The mathematics involves for such an understanding at taught to 15 year olds, so it isn't like this is some horrifically complex abstract concept.

Time and time and time again the problem is with you, not anyone else.
 
So what's all the acceleration about when the pendulum swings and the measure of your velocity is remaining constant?
Except the velocities, with respect to a specific inertial frame, do change. The frame the cars are in changes but you can pick ANY inertial frame in which to do your describing and it will describe the vehicles changing speed.

If you cannot be bothered to learn how inertial frames work in kinematics then you are incapable of grasping what relativity or even Newtonian mechanics says about the dynamics of things. As I said, this is taught to kids so it'll be obvious to a great many people how you're mistaken on a very basic thing.
 
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