The Swing of a Pendulum

James, you're deluded if you think for one second your theory is representative of reality. You don't know the speed of the object, you don't know if you are faster or slower than another object, you don't know which direction of travel you are traveling, you don't know if when you accelerate you are increasing or decreasing velocity, your pendulum swings and the distance between you and the other vehicle remains the same, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.....
 

Those examples are not the same thing. Those are complex systems that nobody completely understands. With Motor Daddy we are almost at the stage of 2+2=5. It is really less about Einstein being right than Motor Daddy being wrong. Motor Daddy can't be right. His ideas directly contradict reality.

If you notice, Motor Daddy's examples give different results from Einstein's. Grossly different results. Einstein's results have been tested over and over and have never been found to be wrong.
 
There are no absolutes in spacetime. Ten minutes of research will show that. Sticking to wrong views is what most of this thread is about.

That doesn't change the fact that there is no absolute motion.

Anyone who declares that there is absolute motion is at the end of quite a bit of knowledge. Similarly, anyone who dismisses the world body of knowledge as something . . . unreliable? unproven? . . . has already reached the end of that road, insofar as their personal journey in science is concerned.

If there are no absolutes in spacetime then there are no absolutes in knowledge :)

I don't disagree with what you say, above - nor am I able to agree - due to my (not even) limited knowledge.

I searched for the meaning of 'spacetime' for a couple of decades .. what is this spacetime .. why can't I get my mind around it .. why are the worlds best scientists talking about it as though it's a done deal .. ?

Then a couple of years ago, whilst lurking PhysicsForums, I came across a thread 'Spacetime Is A Fairytale' which was initiated by one of their most respected moderators / mentors no less (I posted it here in the science forum some moths ago).

So imagine my bemusement !

I suppose that more than anything, I should defer to Pyrrho of Elis, circa 250BC; "Believe nobody - suspend judgment on everything"

But it's fun in any case.
 
Those examples are not the same thing. Those are complex systems that nobody completely understands. With Motor Daddy we are almost at the stage of 2+2=5. It is really less about Einstein being right than Motor Daddy being wrong. Motor Daddy can't be right. His ideas directly contradict reality.

If you notice, Motor Daddy's examples give different results from Einstein's. Grossly different results. Einstein's results have been tested over and over and have never been found to be wrong.


My ideas are the very definition of reality! You're measurements are so messed up you can't tell your motion, the other guy's motion, or which is faster or slower, or anything!! What is it that you can tell me about motion then?
 
Those examples are not the same thing. Those are complex systems that nobody completely understands. With Motor Daddy we are almost at the stage of 2+2=5. It is really less about Einstein being right than Motor Daddy being wrong. Motor Daddy can't be right. His ideas directly contradict reality.

If you notice, Motor Daddy's examples give different results from Einstein's. Grossly different results. Einstein's results have been tested over and over and have never been found to be wrong.

You talked about doctors, not me ..
 
You talked about doctors, not me ..

Touche'. But your examples were of systems that are the interactions of a large number of individuals, each with different goals and beliefs. If I had a bad sore throat or a lump in an body part, those are very different things from healthcare in general. I was just saying that not all opinions are equal. If I want to know what is wrong with my car, I talk to a mechanic. If I want medical advice I talk to a doctor. And if I want information about physics, I talk to a physicist. I have my own area of expertise and people come to me for advice. Sometimes they ask about alternative solutions. I explain why those are not recommended. Sometimes they don't listen to me. But they always listen to me on the second consultation. Can I be wrong? Sure. But on the average I am most always correct.
 
My ideas are the very definition of reality! You're measurements are so messed up you can't tell your motion, the other guy's motion, or which is faster or slower, or anything!! What is it that you can tell me about motion then?

My measurements? I have not made any measurements. And I suspect you haven't either.
 
Hmmm, wonder why MotorDaddy gets preferred treatment.

He's more entertaining than most other trolls. I liked his description of how Einstein, Hawking et al were wrong and he was right. Because he understands math and they don't, of course.
 
He's more entertaining than most other trolls. I liked his description of how Einstein, Hawking et al were wrong and he was right. Because he understands math and they don't, of course.

It was entertaining at first, but it got old fast. I suppose I can just quit reading his posts. Obviously, that is the only solution here.

[video=youtube;_yJBhzMWJCc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yJBhzMWJCc[/video]
 
Motor Daddy:

James, you're deluded if you think for one second your theory is representative of reality.

You still don't get it. Experiment after experiment proves that "my" theory is representative of reality. Or, to be more accurate, it proves that my (Einstein's) theory is a far better approximation to reality than your (Galileo/Newton's) "absolute spacetime" theory.

You don't know the speed of the object, you don't know if you are faster or slower than another object, you don't know which direction of travel you are traveling, you don't know if when you accelerate you are increasing or decreasing velocity, your pendulum swings and the distance between you and the other vehicle remains the same, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.....

In a sense, you're right, because most of the things you mention are in no way absolute. Different observers in different reference frames measure different values. But (and this is a very important "but"), relativity tells us precisely, given any one observer's measurements, what every other observer will measure. That, in fact, is what the theory of relativity is all about. It tells us how things will look when we change reference frames.

I'm accutely aware that you don't like the idea of no absolutes of space and time and length and force and energy and so on. But, as I and so many others have told you, Nature doesn't care what you like or what you approve or disapprove of. Nature does what it does, regardless of how nice your pet theory may look on paper. And when we look at nature, it does what Einstein says it should do and not what Motor Daddy physics says it should do - every single time.

You never reply to this fundamental fact, because you have no reply to give other than to refute reality and fall back into your fantasy, theoretical world. That's where every conversation with you ends. It ends with you retreating from reality.
 
Lakon:

If there are no absolutes in spacetime then there are no absolutes in knowledge :)

That doesn't follow. But anyway, there are plenty of absolutes in spacetime - just not the ones you think there are. It is a pity that Einstein's theory came to be called "Relativity". A much better name for it would have been "Invariance", or something like that, because the entire theory is based on a recognition of what does NOT change when you change reference frames.

I searched for the meaning of 'spacetime' for a couple of decades .. what is this spacetime .. why can't I get my mind around it .. why are the worlds best scientists talking about it as though it's a done deal .. ?

Because the theory of relativity is over 100 years old now, and it has been confirmed by every experiment that has ever been done to test it.

Then a couple of years ago, whilst lurking PhysicsForums, I came across a thread 'Spacetime Is A Fairytale' which was initiated by one of their most respected moderators / mentors no less (I posted it here in the science forum some moths ago).

So imagine my bemusement !

Context is everything. Please link us to the thread so we can see what this esteemed moderator actually wrote.
 
Lakon:
That doesn't follow. But anyway, there are plenty of absolutes in spacetime - just not the ones you think there are.

Hi James. My comment was in reply to Aqueous Id several posts back, who categorically said to me;

There are no absolutes in spacetime. Ten minutes of research will show that.

It is a pity that Einstein's theory came to be called "Relativity". A much better name for it would have been "Invariance", or something like that, because the entire theory is based on a recognition of what does NOT change when you change reference frames.

That IS a fascinating perspective! Never heard it like that before. Invariance sounds almost the opposite of relativity.

Because the theory of relativity is over 100 years old now, and it has been confirmed by every experiment that has ever been done to test it.

That's where we kinda part company (metaphorically speaking, of course). How old was the flat earth theory and in how many ways was it confirmed by the observations of the day. And the geocentric universe, etc ?

Context is everything. Please link us to the thread so we can see what this esteemed moderator actually wrote.

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=543690

.. and correction, the thread is called 'The Myth Of Spacetime'. 'Spacetime is a Fairytail' is a paper it linked. I posted a link to that paper in a thread of the same name I created here a couple of months ago. There was some interesting comments. I suppose if you want to discuss it further, that thread might be the place.

I used to read a great deal over there. The moderator I referred to is one Marcus. Although I never spoke to him (and rarely posted anywhere there), he commanded enormous respect on my part because of;

- His humility and friendly nature
- His lack of any hubris
- his apparent enormous intellect and knowledge in his field.
 
Touche'. But your examples were of systems that are the interactions of a large number of individuals, each with different goals and beliefs. If I had a bad sore throat or a lump in an body part, those are very different things from healthcare in general. I was just saying that not all opinions are equal. If I want to know what is wrong with my car, I talk to a mechanic. If I want medical advice I talk to a doctor. And if I want information about physics, I talk to a physicist. I have my own area of expertise and people come to me for advice. Sometimes they ask about alternative solutions. I explain why those are not recommended. Sometimes they don't listen to me. But they always listen to me on the second consultation. Can I be wrong? Sure. But on the average I am most always correct.

It all happens at the margins, my dear Cheezle. You only have to find a trace of contamination in one of the hundred or so Cheezles in the pack to call in the FDA.
 
James R, I wanted to say a bit more on this.

Though I had said nothing to the contrary, in post #400 Aqueous Id said (to me)

There are no absolutes in spacetime. Ten minutes of research will show that.

That's fine - all in the discussion, and I replied in #403;

If there are no absolutes in spacetime then there are no absolutes in knowledge :)

Then in #411 you said;

That doesn't follow. But anyway, there are plenty of absolutes in spacetime - just not the ones you think there are ..

Did you see the smiley thing in my above comment to AI ? My comment was meant more tounge in cheek than anything .. no absolutes in spacetime, you are in spacetime .. how can you assume absolute knowledge .. how can nothing absolute contain anything absolute ..

.. tha sort of thing. But now your most recent, above has me most intrigued. Plenty of absolutes in spacetime ? What are some of them ?

Edit; and what absolutes did you think I think there are ?
 
James, Obviously this discussion is not progressing because we've come to the point we always get to in which I can show my method and calculations are correct according to definition and accepted methods of geometry. On the other hand you claim your test results show that I am wrong.

I think we need to change tactics here to get to the bottom of how two entirely different methods could be mathematically correct. My method describes reality MUCH better than yours does, and yet, you claim to have real evidence against that statement.

We need to change the focus to exactly what is being measured and exactly what we mean when we use those terms for units. Are the units really being used according to the concept of the unit? Are some measurements overlapping others to create a false sense of reality?

Let's talk about the actual measurement of the distance and time. The wave length and frequency of light, and what we mean when we say "moving" or "traveling" or "motion."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency

A quote from the link:

Frequency is the number of occurrences of a repeating event per unit time.

My opening thought is, how do you determine frequency if you don't know the time that has elapsed?
 
Another quote from the link that I find very interesting indeed!

If the number of counts is not very large, it is more accurate to measure the time interval for a predetermined number of occurrences, rather than the number of occurrences within a specified time.[2] The latter method introduces a random error into the count of between zero and one count, so on average half a count. This is called gating error and causes an average error in the calculated frequency of Δf = 1/(2 Tm), or a fractional error of Δf / f = 1/(2 f Tm) where Tm is the timing interval and f is the measured frequency. This error decreases with frequency, so it is a problem at low frequencies where the number of counts N is small.

Care to explain how that error is introduced into SR, James??
 
This error decreases with frequency, so it is a problem at low frequencies where the number of counts N is small

You are such a hoot MD. Let's see it is a problem at low frequencies, hmmm. Would you say that light generally could be considered a low frequency wave?:rolleyes:

Your whole line of reasoning (such as it is) about frequency and a problem with SR is misguided at best. You really should try to at least a get vague understanding of physics, before trying... oh never mind.:shrug:
 
You are such a hoot MD. Let's see it is a problem at low frequencies, hmmm. Would you say that light generally could be considered a low frequency wave?:rolleyes:

Your whole line of reasoning (such as it is) about frequency and a problem with SR is misguided at best. You really should try to at least a get vague understanding of physics, before trying... oh never mind.:shrug:

How would you know the frequency first without knowing the time?
 
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