The superstition of prayers

[(Q)]

So being a Muslim automatically makes all my experiences faith based?

It should, if you're in fact a Muslim.

Hmm I just had a cup of coffee, it was slightly stronger than I wanted it to be, so it tasted bitter to me.

Allah made it bitter, or he adjusted your taste buds to make you think the coffee was bitter.

I saw a movie yesterday, it made me laugh. It was a satire on religion.

Allah made you laugh. Allah also made you believe it was satire.

How is that experience relevant to my religion?

If you believe, then everything must be relevant to your religion.

 

[superluminal]

I look at the general population and see about 15% of the population as extreme fundamentalists and about 15% as atheists. The rest fall in between. This is what I call population distribution.

Nothing amazing or to be wondered at. In a mixed normal population I would be extremely surprised not to see any atheists.

Atheists however like to believe they corner the market on reason and rationality.

This certainty also leads to rationalisation and they are able to rationalise their conclusions based on their viewpoints in the same way as fundamentalist theists.

Frankly, I see no difference between the two.

This is because you are a theist and abandon reason when it comes to your faith and naturally go on the defense when confronted by an atheist. I also can't imagine you, sam, provoking an atheist. Perish the thought.

My experience of atheists (of which I know many) is that we keep it to ourselves unless asked. Most of us have actually deeply considered theism for a long time, usually in our teens and early twenties, and come to a rationalistic conclusion. You cannot claim the same for the typical theist.

It frightens you, I know, to realise that you belong to a group that selectively applies reason. This is no reason though to mischaracterize a group as 'extreme fundamentalists' in the same vein as theistic fundamentalists.

Shame on you.

 

[LiveInFaith]

Prayer IS the flipping of coin, without the coin in hand.

Only when you had practiced prayes, this statement could be considered as a fact.

 

[superluminal]

I misapplied the word 'egalitarian' in my post. Although atheists are far more egalitarian than theists, as a rule.

 

[S.A.M.]

I misapplied the word 'egalitarian' in my post. Although atheists are far more egalitarian than theists, as a rule.

Considering that they represent a small select group of people, they don't represent the norm.

Plus what I said before.

They may perceive themselves as more egalitarian when they propose high sounding principles like secularism and democracy. In reality, however, their approach to people different from themselves (in ideology if not in appearance) is very similar to that of fundamentalists.

Note that societies implementing secularism and democracy in their own populations do so at the cost of liberty and safety elsewhere.

 

[superluminal]

Considering that they represent a small select group of people, they don't represent the norm.

Plus what I said before.

A good thing in my opinion.

Plus, well thought out reply.

 

[(Q)]

Only when you had practiced prayes, this statement could be considered as a fact.

That is why I prefer to practice reason and rationale in the decision making/problem solving process and avoid chance as best as one can, hence avoiding prayer.

 

[(Q)]

Considering that they represent a small select group of people, they don't represent the norm.

And the "norm" is represented by who?

 

[S.A.M.]

It should, if you're in fact a Muslim.



Allah made it bitter, or he adjusted your taste buds to make you think the coffee was bitter.



Allah made you laugh. Allah also made you believe it was satire.



If you believe, then everything must be relevant to your religion.

LOL I see the absence of God weighs more on your mind than His presence does on mine.

Nice one.

 

[(Q)]

Note that societies implementing secularism and democracy in their own populations do so at the cost of liberty and safety elsewhere.

Would that be the "butterfly effect?"

 

[Ayodhya]

They may perceive themselves as more egalitarian when they propose high sounding principles like secularism and democracy. In reality, however, their approach to people different from themselves (in ideology if not in appearance) is very similar to that of fundamentalists.

Not all atheists act like this. People often forget that most people are not evangelical in their beliefs, either atheist or theist. There will always exist those who are fanatical in their belief systems, but a blanket statement is often not the correct approach.

Note that societies implementing secularism and democracy in their own populations do so at the cost of liberty and safety elsewhere.

What societies reduce liberty and safety elsewhere in secularizing/bringing democracy to their country?

And how exactly is liberty and safety reduced by bringing democracy and/or a secular government in place?

 

[(Q)]

LOL I see the absence of God weighs more on your mind than His presence does on mine.

The absence of an ether weighs equally, or more precisely, not at all.

If Allah's presence doesn't weigh on your mind, you should be questioning your faith, or lack thereof, and hence the hypocrisy of your claims to be a Muslim.

 

[S.A.M.]

This is because you are a theist and abandon reason when it comes to your faith and naturally go on the defense when confronted by an atheist. I also can't imagine you, sam, provoking an atheist. Perish the thought.

This is a debate, its supposed to be provocative.

My experience of atheists (of which I know many) is that we keep it to ourselves unless asked. Most of us have actually deeply considered theism for a long time, usually in our teens and early twenties, and come to a rationalistic conclusion. You cannot claim the same for the typical theist.

So do most theists. This assumption that all theists are the same is funny in light of the fact that atheists also simultaneously argue that theists canot agree with each other. The very fact that there are so many religious beliefs along with so many differences within a religion is clear indication that theists do think about their beliefs.

It frightens you, I know, to realise that you belong to a group that selectively applies reason. This is no reason though to mischaracterize a group as 'extreme fundamentalists' in the same vein as theistic fundamentalists.

Extreme means not of the norm.

And no I've realised that selectivity in applying reason is a human condition, one that no one (not even atheists) are free from.

Shame on you.

 

[LiveInFaith]

That is why I prefer to practice reason and rationale in the decision making/problem solving process and avoid chance as best as one can, hence avoiding prayer.

Agree, as best as one can is also what I m trying to be.
I said I couldn't clearly explained my experience of how praying works. Your assumption that I make decision based on chance implying it happens in all situation. Beyond my best, but still have to act, that's when praying required. You can equate it with flipping coins, but I can't. Why? I cannot explain it further.

 

[superluminal]

They may perceive themselves as more egalitarian when they propose high sounding principles like secularism and democracy. In reality, however, their approach to people different from themselves (in ideology if not in appearance) is very similar to that of fundamentalists.

Note that societies implementing secularism and democracy in their own populations do so at the cost of liberty and safety elsewhere.

Really sam? Like Europe and the US of SATAN?

Yes. If we would just leave south america, many african countries, and the middle east (and others) alone, we would never have to send another american son to die, trying to stop the genocide of hundreds of thousands or millions.

You advocate the soverign right of states and cultures to commit population subjugation and genocide. I applaud your theistic ethics and morality.

 

[S.A.M.]

The absence of an ether weighs equally, or more precisely, not at all.

Thats a silly metaphor.

The absence of air light oxygen and this world would weigh more on you than the presence thereof.

If Allah's presence doesn't weigh on your mind, you should be questioning your faith, or lack thereof, and hence the hypocrisy of your claims to be a Muslim.

One does not think of light/breath when there is light/breath, only when its dark/suffocation.

 

[S.A.M.]

Really sam? Like Europe and the US of SATAN?

Yes. If we would just leave south america, many african countries, and the middle east (and others) alone, we would never have to send another american son to die, trying to stop the genocide of hundreds of thousands or millions.

You advocate the soverign right of states and cultures to commit population subjugation and genocide. I applaud your theistic ethics and morality.

No I only deplore the short sightedness of those who choose to selectively ignore any evidence that contradict their beliefs about the world they live in.

Population subjugation and genocide?

Reality is merely what you choose to believe in.

 

[superluminal]

And no I've realised that selectivity in applying reason is a human condition, one that no one (not even atheists) are free from.

Oh come now sam. Are you really claiming that theistic beliefs and faith are somehow on par with a rationalist approach to things?

Why don't you apply your faith based belief approach to your Phd studies. Explain to your peers that you just accept that the bark of the wahangi tree cures a whole range of nutritional ailments. No studies or evidence required.

Admit it. You do one thing clearly different from atheists. You compartmentalize your logic to allow you to accept a nice story that is part of your personal cultural heritage with no evidence required.

 

[S.A.M.]

Oh come now sam. Are you really claiming that theistic beliefs and faith are somehow on par with a rationalist approach to things?

Why don't you apply your faith based belief approach to your Phd studies. Explain to your peers that you just accept that the bark of the wahangi tree cures a whole range of nutritional ailments. No studies or evidence required.

Admit it. You do one thing clearly different from atheists. You compartmentalize your logic to allow you to accept a nice story that is part of your personal cultural heritage with no evidence required.

No I realise that my appreciation of music, my love for my family, my belief in God and my interest in science are all different parts of my personality and it is possible for all to coexist without impinging one on the other.

I seek no evidence for why I prefer smooth jazz over hard metal, why I like my brother more than the others and why I love biology but detest physics. I do not consider religion to be a scientific realm just as I do not closely examine my friends for their theistic beliefs or sexual orientation.

 

[superluminal]

No I only deplore the short sightedness of those who choose to selectively ignore any evidence that contradict their beliefs about the world they live in.

Population subjugation and genocide?

Reality is merely what you choose to believe in.

No sam, you're wrong. You are simply part of the cheerleading section of anti-americanism that's been going on ever since we showed up on the world stage. The world is still a largely hostile and dangerous place. You would have us (the developed west) leave it alone to it's own rich and varied cultural traditions of mass starvation, genocide, disease, etc.

Now, go ahead and post some more dubious links showing what a negative force the west has been in the history of the world.

BTW, your link to the third hand reports of the possible funding of death squads is well supported evidence. And yopu know what? If it's true, I'm ashamed of it.

But what's even more disturbing is that you will find hundreds of documents supporting your "the USA is a destructive hate mongering world destabiliging genocidal force" theory and believe every bit of it.