The "SUN" stopped moving? Surrrrrre it did.
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DefSkeptic
Registered Senior Member
Shane
Examples of my claim are prevalent throughout the entire religion section. The problem is, whether or not you will disgard them as rubbish. Some see it as indirect proof that the bible is flawed some see it as a minor inconvience. I personally see it as a major flaw. Its not that we dont understand the bible, no thats not it, the problem is that we DO understand the bible.
The message does remain, but its built on shaky foundations.
True, many are not clear, but can be decifered through education. Don't you think a easier to understand format would better serve humanity, it would allow the bible to become more accessable in comprehension, thus it would allow one to cut through the confusion and focus on the message without the uncertainty.
Examples of my claim are prevalent throughout the entire religion section. The problem is, whether or not you will disgard them as rubbish. Some see it as indirect proof that the bible is flawed some see it as a minor inconvience. I personally see it as a major flaw. Its not that we dont understand the bible, no thats not it, the problem is that we DO understand the bible.
The message does remain, but its built on shaky foundations.
True, many are not clear, but can be decifered through education. Don't you think a easier to understand format would better serve humanity, it would allow the bible to become more accessable in comprehension, thus it would allow one to cut through the confusion and focus on the message without the uncertainty.
DefSkeptic
Registered Senior Member
grimreaper-
Not sure of the question..........can you explain this in better detail. Thanks
Not sure of the question..........can you explain this in better detail. Thanks
Shane,
Or are you saying that Adam and Eve were created in parallel with the evolutionary route that led to all humans? That would lead to two races of humans and serious credibility issues.
Ok that's fine. So the Adam and Eve story is false then and hence Christianity has no basis.
Or are you saying that Adam and Eve were created in parallel with the evolutionary route that led to all humans? That would lead to two races of humans and serious credibility issues.
brainuniverse
Registered Senior Member
I love to read this discussion between skeptics and believers, it makes me laugh(not meant to be offensive 
).
In cases everyone missed this up, we have the left side of our brain, and we have the right side, one of the distinctive role of the right side is to permit us to believe, have expectations, intuition... and for this reason, I think that skeptics are just half human, refusing to use the brain like it should be used, in fact the "truth" if there is any about the Universe should lies from our own brain, because only our brain is the "proof" of the existance of this Universe.
Now, concerning the Bible, in the time it was writen, the Earth was in fact flat, and the Sun was turning around it, because our Universe at that time was the product of the brain of those people at that time that were in fact considering the Earth as the center of the Universe. In thousands of years from now, it would be those other humans that will make fun of our own theories because in science there is no such hing as a real "proof" only foundamental mathematics admit "proofs" other science admit evidences and possibilities, our notion of the Universe is dependent of our actual observations and conclusions, and that evolves in the time.
To explain what I mean, I can give as example an islamic fanatic blowing himself to have the grace of Allah, in the Universe of thie man, Allah exist and is the center of our world, is Allah exist ? Yes ? No ? No ! In your Universe, that means your brain, but Allah do exist in the Universe of this individual. Beliefs are in human nature, and if you don't have any beliefs, you are only half human, you restrict your Universe to the half it actually is.
So, what all this B.S.t I wrote has anything to do with what it is said ? Well, I think that Skeptics are those in the wrong track, not those believers, because most of human discoveries including scientific, all those human achievements have been made possible because people hade beliefs in those realisations, its the process of human evolution, in fact, the only thing we can all agree on, be it those that believes in God, Allah, Yaver, or whatever, is that the only thing we can be sure of, is that each one of us is conscient of his own existance. The rest is only a question of the way our brain works... the left side for the skeptics, and both side for the majority of the believers in something.
Contrary to what people thinks, everything can not be proven scientifically, in fact, only the fact that we are conscient of our existance directly implies that we can never understand how we are conscient of this existance, because it will reduce everything to a non-issue. Now imagine, all this science that appears so exact, still the building blocks of nature, themselves do not respect human logic, and it is actually expected, because of the reason I gave above. If people does not agree with me about the illogicness of nature, I just have to point out Quantum mechanic and the way it acts in a weird way, scientifics have stoped to understand Quantum mechanic, they just use it now as a bases of prediction, but the why, never it will be answered, use your right side or left side of your brain, never you could answer that question, you will always aproch to it, but approching to it will always give you more questions.
As a conclusion, we can observe only 4 % of the entire Universe, the other part is known as dark matter or dark energy etc...
).In cases everyone missed this up, we have the left side of our brain, and we have the right side, one of the distinctive role of the right side is to permit us to believe, have expectations, intuition... and for this reason, I think that skeptics are just half human, refusing to use the brain like it should be used, in fact the "truth" if there is any about the Universe should lies from our own brain, because only our brain is the "proof" of the existance of this Universe.
Now, concerning the Bible, in the time it was writen, the Earth was in fact flat, and the Sun was turning around it, because our Universe at that time was the product of the brain of those people at that time that were in fact considering the Earth as the center of the Universe. In thousands of years from now, it would be those other humans that will make fun of our own theories because in science there is no such hing as a real "proof" only foundamental mathematics admit "proofs" other science admit evidences and possibilities, our notion of the Universe is dependent of our actual observations and conclusions, and that evolves in the time.
To explain what I mean, I can give as example an islamic fanatic blowing himself to have the grace of Allah, in the Universe of thie man, Allah exist and is the center of our world, is Allah exist ? Yes ? No ? No ! In your Universe, that means your brain, but Allah do exist in the Universe of this individual. Beliefs are in human nature, and if you don't have any beliefs, you are only half human, you restrict your Universe to the half it actually is.
So, what all this B.S.t I wrote has anything to do with what it is said ? Well, I think that Skeptics are those in the wrong track, not those believers, because most of human discoveries including scientific, all those human achievements have been made possible because people hade beliefs in those realisations, its the process of human evolution, in fact, the only thing we can all agree on, be it those that believes in God, Allah, Yaver, or whatever, is that the only thing we can be sure of, is that each one of us is conscient of his own existance. The rest is only a question of the way our brain works... the left side for the skeptics, and both side for the majority of the believers in something.
Contrary to what people thinks, everything can not be proven scientifically, in fact, only the fact that we are conscient of our existance directly implies that we can never understand how we are conscient of this existance, because it will reduce everything to a non-issue. Now imagine, all this science that appears so exact, still the building blocks of nature, themselves do not respect human logic, and it is actually expected, because of the reason I gave above. If people does not agree with me about the illogicness of nature, I just have to point out Quantum mechanic and the way it acts in a weird way, scientifics have stoped to understand Quantum mechanic, they just use it now as a bases of prediction, but the why, never it will be answered, use your right side or left side of your brain, never you could answer that question, you will always aproch to it, but approching to it will always give you more questions.
As a conclusion, we can observe only 4 % of the entire Universe, the other part is known as dark matter or dark energy etc...
grimreaper
Registered Senior Member
DefSkeptic
you have a car which has top speed of say 30 mph.
it takes you 12 hrs to go from your house to your moms house.
every one elses car dose same.
one morning some one puts no2 system in car increassing top speed to 90.you dont of upgrade
you go to moms house unawear of change and are traveling at top speed.it only takes 4 hrs.
you only use the sun and moon for time reference.
from your reference did the sun move slower?
with respect
you have a car which has top speed of say 30 mph.
it takes you 12 hrs to go from your house to your moms house.
every one elses car dose same.
one morning some one puts no2 system in car increassing top speed to 90.you dont of upgrade
you go to moms house unawear of change and are traveling at top speed.it only takes 4 hrs.
you only use the sun and moon for time reference.
from your reference did the sun move slower?
with respect
DefSkeptic
Registered Senior Member
grimreaper-
Given that exact situation I would personally try to find another reason for the cause. To think the earth's rotation was significantly influenced would not be my logical conclusion.
A more direct answer- I would have to say no, the sun did not move faster/slower, I was the culprit of the time abnormality.
I have a feeling that I maybe missed the point you were trying to make. Can you fill me in.
Given that exact situation I would personally try to find another reason for the cause. To think the earth's rotation was significantly influenced would not be my logical conclusion.
A more direct answer- I would have to say no, the sun did not move faster/slower, I was the culprit of the time abnormality.
I have a feeling that I maybe missed the point you were trying to make. Can you fill me in.
brainuniverse
Registered Senior Member
Re: Brains
Why one half should be chosen rather then another, we have both, why restrict us on using one against the other ?
Why one half should be chosen rather then another, we have both, why restrict us on using one against the other ?
brainuniverse
Registered Senior Member
Actually, slowing and accelerating is in the eyes of the observator. Take two observers in the same system, for one, 1 minute could be long, and for the other, slow, suppose that you find it long, in your Universe(your brain), 1 minute is slow. What I mean by this is that those that believe in the Bible, in their Universe the Bible is the truth, is it in yours ? Not.
I know this has been said/eluded to many times in teh past, and at least once in this thread, but I have NEVER gotten an answer.
To those Christians that believe that some of teh stories in the Bible are supposed to be taken literally, and some are supposed to be taken figuratively:
How do you know which is which?
How do you know that Adam & Eve and the single omnipotent God are supposed to be taken figuratively, but the Sun standing still and the tower of Babel are supposed to be taken figuratively?
(I chose those particular stories as a simple example, please don't try and argue with me which of them should be taken literally and which should not. That would waste all of our time.)
It's a very simple question that I have asked many time, and NO ONE has been able to answer yet.
One that the entirety of teh Christian faith rests on.
If you can't answer that simple question, I can't see how you can justify youe beliefs at ALL.
How do you know which stories to take literally, and which ones to take figuratively?
To those Christians that believe that some of teh stories in the Bible are supposed to be taken literally, and some are supposed to be taken figuratively:
How do you know which is which?
How do you know that Adam & Eve and the single omnipotent God are supposed to be taken figuratively, but the Sun standing still and the tower of Babel are supposed to be taken figuratively?
(I chose those particular stories as a simple example, please don't try and argue with me which of them should be taken literally and which should not. That would waste all of our time.)
It's a very simple question that I have asked many time, and NO ONE has been able to answer yet.
One that the entirety of teh Christian faith rests on.
If you can't answer that simple question, I can't see how you can justify youe beliefs at ALL.
How do you know which stories to take literally, and which ones to take figuratively?
i think if all parts of the bible are not taken into consideration, then why would they be included in the first place. hence, why are all the crazy irrelevant stories included in the bible if they weren't meant to be authoritive(sp) and true. also, the story of adam and eve is crazy, if you can take that literally then everything else in the bible should be taken literally- it is supposed to be THE word of god and therefore entirely true, if he is perfect he wouldn't put a whole bunch of beautiful literary techniques in the bible for us mere humans to stumble over. also, mitocondrial(sp) DNA is the same in all woman and has been traced back 200 000 years (it could extend even further)- that alone is proof that adam and eve did not exsist. mitocondrial DNA stays consistant throughout every single woman in the world and if eve was made out of adams rib cage (man that's stupid) then men would also share that same mitocondrial DNA- but we don't. so try weedle your way out of that one theists.
grimreaper
Registered Senior Member
I maybe missed the point you were trying to make
ok you are part of a primitive civilization which belives that the world is flat and the sun and moon moves through the sky. You take to the feild of battle one which should last days. you leader has asked your god to deliver your enemy to you before the sun sets.
As you start your battle a feild effect is set up and every one moves faster ( all living beings and moving objects). As the effect acts equaly on every thing affected you dont notice it. As the battle proceeds according to plan actions that would take hours are compleated in minuts as you check your time peice the sun you see that it has moved little or not at all.
As an inteligent person of the times would it be more logical that god made every thing move faster or slowed two objects in the sky.
with respect
ok you are part of a primitive civilization which belives that the world is flat and the sun and moon moves through the sky. You take to the feild of battle one which should last days. you leader has asked your god to deliver your enemy to you before the sun sets.
As you start your battle a feild effect is set up and every one moves faster ( all living beings and moving objects). As the effect acts equaly on every thing affected you dont notice it. As the battle proceeds according to plan actions that would take hours are compleated in minuts as you check your time peice the sun you see that it has moved little or not at all.
As an inteligent person of the times would it be more logical that god made every thing move faster or slowed two objects in the sky.
with respect
One_raven,
I think I have addressed this issue somewhere, maybe it was to you or maybe not.
The answer lies in studying the Bible. Personally, I feel a bit like brainuniverse desribes it, and if my option are 1)literal or 2)figurative, I choose 3)whichever is true.
You'll see that in most cases it doesn't affect the change what is being said. From a distance, it's hard to tell the difference between a star and a planet, but it doesn't make what you see invalid. For instance, Adam and Eve - it might be metaphor, it might be literal (for as far as we can trust ages of oral tradition), it might even be pieces of both, but that doesn't change their story or nature of their disobedience. Cris said that if Adam and Eve is a figurative story, Christianity would have no basis, but it doesn't matter since my Christianity is based on God's miracle anyway, and Adam and Eve represent God's creation - whether literal or figurative.
To get closer to the topic - that the sun stopped moving - like brainuniverse indicated: for all practical intents and purposes, maybe it did. I have heard that some astronomers have reverse projected the movement of the sun for a period and found that it was inconsistent, but I have nothing to quote.
I did come across this website that shows where stories about long days/nights were recorded.
I think the true objection with such stories is whether miracles happen or not, and I believe they did, so I don't stumble over that verse while reading the Bible. If the supernatural is 'natural; to God, nature is merely the observed supernatural.
If your faith depends on these events being literal, it also depends on whether you believe that God created you or not. In the end, truth is greater than what we see or don't see.
On another level - you only have to look at what you're reading and judge from the surrounding material. Is it a poem, a letter, a law, an analogy, or a parable? Joshua is a history, part of "the history of God", and therefore a testimony to how God assisted Joshua. Since he apparently needed more daylight to finish the battle and was in the end able to finish the battle, it is reasonable to assume that he was in fact assisted.
I think I have addressed this issue somewhere, maybe it was to you or maybe not.
The answer lies in studying the Bible. Personally, I feel a bit like brainuniverse desribes it, and if my option are 1)literal or 2)figurative, I choose 3)whichever is true.
You'll see that in most cases it doesn't affect the change what is being said. From a distance, it's hard to tell the difference between a star and a planet, but it doesn't make what you see invalid. For instance, Adam and Eve - it might be metaphor, it might be literal (for as far as we can trust ages of oral tradition), it might even be pieces of both, but that doesn't change their story or nature of their disobedience. Cris said that if Adam and Eve is a figurative story, Christianity would have no basis, but it doesn't matter since my Christianity is based on God's miracle anyway, and Adam and Eve represent God's creation - whether literal or figurative.
To get closer to the topic - that the sun stopped moving - like brainuniverse indicated: for all practical intents and purposes, maybe it did. I have heard that some astronomers have reverse projected the movement of the sun for a period and found that it was inconsistent, but I have nothing to quote.
I did come across this website that shows where stories about long days/nights were recorded.
I think the true objection with such stories is whether miracles happen or not, and I believe they did, so I don't stumble over that verse while reading the Bible. If the supernatural is 'natural; to God, nature is merely the observed supernatural.
If your faith depends on these events being literal, it also depends on whether you believe that God created you or not. In the end, truth is greater than what we see or don't see.
On another level - you only have to look at what you're reading and judge from the surrounding material. Is it a poem, a letter, a law, an analogy, or a parable? Joshua is a history, part of "the history of God", and therefore a testimony to how God assisted Joshua. Since he apparently needed more daylight to finish the battle and was in the end able to finish the battle, it is reasonable to assume that he was in fact assisted.
DefSkeptic
Registered Senior Member
grimreaper-
Ok so I take it that they hold these as fact, so I will do the same for the answer I will give.
I go with the slowed two objects in the sky answer. What do you think?
Ok so I take it that they hold these as fact, so I will do the same for the answer I will give.
I go with the slowed two objects in the sky answer. What do you think?
Maybe they can. I think the pertinent question is who get's to decide which is which? You could easily tell us god has told you which is which- but that's really quite faulty. The reason being the religious establishment can't even agree amongst themselves even though each and everyone of them has been told 'their' version by god.
Well, i'm not really a scientist, nor am i involved with a science pertaining to things like this- however i will attempt a personal answer:
If the earth was sped up 100 times two specific things would happen:
A) We'd get extremely dizzy and probably puke over our jeans
B) We'd fly off into space like peas from a pea shooter
(although not aimed at me i'd like to answer): Isn't everyone guilty of that? Here's an example:
Sometimes it borders ludicrous. God says he stopped the sun- now all of a sudden he 'might have stopped all motion in space'?
"Life is one giant circus- we are the clowns." Snake 2003.
Actually it is pertinent to say it's is pretty evident the creation story has been handed down from the Sumerians. Their story varied slightly- there were many gods, (although this is seen also in the bible translation with the usage of elohim and gods own speeches shown in plural, [i.e Man has become like one of us... Let us go down...]), but the basis remains constant. I posted some of the Sumerian texts on several threads, but the most recent would be the 'jesus is god' thread. If you feel like it you can go and read it. If the very first story is nothing more than a badly copied translation what does that say about the validity concerning the rest of the bible?
DefSkeptic
Registered Senior Member
Snakelord-
I Don't know anything about the Sumerians, but I mentioned them to a friend and he said they were way ahead of their time. Apparently they did some amazing stuff.
I Don't know anything about the Sumerians, but I mentioned them to a friend and he said they were way ahead of their time. Apparently they did some amazing stuff.
Hell yes! Imagine a culture of advanced people living 5000+ years ago. What could such a people do? With some kind of 'credibility' to the creation beliefs these people did, as far as is known, arrive from nowhere. They started and wrote a majority of the modern day bible. It's hardly a surprise when you read the bible where it states the location of the garden of eden- Sumeria. Sumeria plays an important role within the modern day bible clearly showing it's overwhelming influence.
These people had schools, they had pyramids, accountants and a whole host of other things so many later cultures couldn't even grasp or develop. Read Samuel Noah Kramers "39 firsts of Sumeria".
However that is nothing, diddly-squat compared to the most astounding thing- in my eyes anyway...
(For now i will explain this very briefly- if interested we can discuss it in detail later and i can provide some good sources)
They explained the cosmos in perfect detail, (The written accounts exist and are undeniable). No, they didnt say: there's an earth, a sun etc they went far far beyond this:
They explained about all of the planets. Earth was called: Ki, which means 'the cleaved one'. The name is accurate- earth is not exactly 'round' but is cleaved on one side. They even explained about Pluto- a planet that wasn't discovered until 1930! They explained about the retrograde orbit of (Saturn?)- sorry i forget, i;ve been awake for the past 26 hours
They even went so far as to explain about the Kupier belt. They spoke of some planets having multi-moons but even recently the idea of planets having more than one satellite was denied outright. The level of accuracy they described is astounding and cannot be ignored.
They said they were told by the Anunnaki, (later seen as nephilim in the bible). Anunnaki translates as: "Those who from heaven to earth came". Nephilim translates in context to "Those who fell from above".
They also explain how planets/satellites/kupier belt etc got to where they are- That is disputable of course because that could be imagination at work but the fact remains they knew all about the planets. They explained about comets, the tilt of uranus, and so on.
It's scary, but it's also important to acknowledge. The Sumerians eventually led to Babylonians who led to Akkadians and so on, all of whom kept and handed down the original sumerian stories, (more by word of mouth as the texts were sealed in the temples).
I do find it intriguing to see some cultures, all with pyramids, who seemed to know a lot about the cosmos. All of it having stemmed from the Sumerians we can see why. Of course i ask the question of how people like the Aztecs and Mayans learnt all this from the other side of the earth.... that is guesswork mainly. However they have found large quantities of cocaine present within egyptian mummy remains- Where is the only location on earth cocaine comes from? South America. As such we must conclude at some stage the south american cultures visited the Egyptians or vice versa- Historical science says there were no trade routes between south america and egypt at that time- to many it's not even a possibility.
[edit] I thought quick explanation of garden of eden important: It has been placed at what is now Basra-Iraq. (Olden days-Southern Mesopotamia, [Sumeria]). This is happily attested to by the religious schollars aswell. (feel free to search google)
Furthermore, the scientific dating of the Sumerian people- 5,000-8,000 years ago, is actually concurrent with the christian belief of creation roughly 6,000 years ago. Of course if that were the case undoubtedly the Sumerian texts would take precedence over the translated 'modern day' bible and as such we'd all be worshipping a bunch of mortal space travelling aliens.
These people had schools, they had pyramids, accountants and a whole host of other things so many later cultures couldn't even grasp or develop. Read Samuel Noah Kramers "39 firsts of Sumeria".
However that is nothing, diddly-squat compared to the most astounding thing- in my eyes anyway...
(For now i will explain this very briefly- if interested we can discuss it in detail later and i can provide some good sources)
They explained the cosmos in perfect detail, (The written accounts exist and are undeniable). No, they didnt say: there's an earth, a sun etc they went far far beyond this:
They explained about all of the planets. Earth was called: Ki, which means 'the cleaved one'. The name is accurate- earth is not exactly 'round' but is cleaved on one side. They even explained about Pluto- a planet that wasn't discovered until 1930! They explained about the retrograde orbit of (Saturn?)- sorry i forget, i;ve been awake for the past 26 hours
They even went so far as to explain about the Kupier belt. They spoke of some planets having multi-moons but even recently the idea of planets having more than one satellite was denied outright. The level of accuracy they described is astounding and cannot be ignored.
They said they were told by the Anunnaki, (later seen as nephilim in the bible). Anunnaki translates as: "Those who from heaven to earth came". Nephilim translates in context to "Those who fell from above".
They also explain how planets/satellites/kupier belt etc got to where they are- That is disputable of course because that could be imagination at work but the fact remains they knew all about the planets. They explained about comets, the tilt of uranus, and so on.
It's scary, but it's also important to acknowledge. The Sumerians eventually led to Babylonians who led to Akkadians and so on, all of whom kept and handed down the original sumerian stories, (more by word of mouth as the texts were sealed in the temples).
I do find it intriguing to see some cultures, all with pyramids, who seemed to know a lot about the cosmos. All of it having stemmed from the Sumerians we can see why. Of course i ask the question of how people like the Aztecs and Mayans learnt all this from the other side of the earth.... that is guesswork mainly. However they have found large quantities of cocaine present within egyptian mummy remains- Where is the only location on earth cocaine comes from? South America. As such we must conclude at some stage the south american cultures visited the Egyptians or vice versa- Historical science says there were no trade routes between south america and egypt at that time- to many it's not even a possibility.
[edit] I thought quick explanation of garden of eden important: It has been placed at what is now Basra-Iraq. (Olden days-Southern Mesopotamia, [Sumeria]). This is happily attested to by the religious schollars aswell. (feel free to search google)
Furthermore, the scientific dating of the Sumerian people- 5,000-8,000 years ago, is actually concurrent with the christian belief of creation roughly 6,000 years ago. Of course if that were the case undoubtedly the Sumerian texts would take precedence over the translated 'modern day' bible and as such we'd all be worshipping a bunch of mortal space travelling aliens.
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