The Soul

[Cris]

Everneo,

Or rather the brain enables or challanges the ability of soul to interact with material world.

I understand your point and that wasn’t in question, the issue becomes one of cause and effect.

While you ask about the purpose of a soul, i think about the purpose of brain to be a necessary interface for the soul.

No it isn’t a matter of perspective but one of objective function. If the soul is the source of personality for a given individual then the brain would be merely the vehicle that allows the soul to reveal itself. What you are saying is that the resultant displayed personality depends on the characteristics of the particular material brain. And this is what we observe in reality. If we take this/your approach then the soul becomes a redundant component. Or rather you do not have a case to support evidence for a soul.

The case of the split brain person with widely differing personalities in each half would not occur if only one soul/personality was in play. The evidence here is that personality is the result of brain and in a split brain two personalities can develop independently.

But my question goes further – just what is the purpose and role of the soul? If it is not to deliver a particular unique personality then why would it exist? Is it just some type of energy source or what? Do you see the fundamental issue that arises from the rather damming evidence revealed through the split brain conundrum?

If my soul is not my personality, is not my memory, is not my emotions, and is not my mind; then what does my soul do for me? It seems to be a null component that equates very nicely with something that doesn’t exist.

 

[duendy]

Its a tough job made tougher by the notion that science validates materialism.

d)))yes, it's like some kind of strange impasse. But in mythology, including the mythology of science, one can see a linear development to the materialistic paradigm.
And with it the anvironment and individual persona becomes the belief. Like the 'proof' we are merely biochemical machines. the belief self-validates itself. it stops even the courage to experiment in an ecstatic way with Nature. which is a bit of a kill joy for them and those that do actually. for there is THE key


I almost agree with you but it is also true that a transcending & immanent intelligence is way beyond the capability of our 'logic' & 'objective' methodologies to even recognize it let alone exploring it. You can see apparently that materialism is holding the 'reality' as its hostage!

It 'THINKS'=it does.
as said, the modern physicists through reason came to the completely bizarre world of subatomic reality. it confounded THEIR reason. It still does.
I had a private email from physicist Nick Herbert, who told me physicists USe quantum mechanics, but they don't UNDERSTAND it.

so, that is frorm the reason polar end. confoundment. disturbance.
then we have the person who experiences Deeper, and of course the one who takes an hallucinogen. Here we are at the ecstatic pole....though really its a spiral natrually. for there is a reason in ecstasy too--a non-rationality

One now is in DIRECT participation with the reality the physicists discover, only now there is Deep connection spiritually. And this Is Meaning. YET the materialist scientists seem to toally dismiss it as a buch of chemicals. they subtract meaning in their equation....

 

[everneo]

If the soul is the source of personality for a given individual then the brain would be merely the vehicle that allows the soul to reveal itself. What you are saying is that the resultant displayed personality depends on the characteristics of the particular material brain. And this is what we observe in reality. If we take this/your approach then the soul becomes a redundant component. Or rather you do not have a case to support evidence for a soul.

The personality might be a result of the specific bonding of the two rather than decided solely by either of them. In a way, the characteristics of the material brain should be conducive for the soul to express itself properly in the personality.

The case of the split brain person with widely differing personalities in each half would not occur if only one soul/personality was in play. The evidence here is that personality is the result of brain and in a split brain two personalities can develop independently.

In both the personalities the association of 'self' is the same and torn between the two personlities? is it not ?

But my question goes further – just what is the purpose and role of the soul? If it is not to deliver a particular unique personality then why would it exist? Is it just some type of energy source or what? Do you see the fundamental issue that arises from the rather damming evidence revealed through the split brain conundrum?

If my soul is not my personality, is not my memory, is not my emotions, and is not my mind; then what does my soul do for me? It seems to be a null component that equates very nicely with something that doesn’t exist.

Your questions are good ones if the soul is a mere inactive non-contributing observer.

 

[Cris]

Everneo,

The personality might be a result of the specific bonding of the two rather than decided solely by either of them.

Ok - but now consider what happens when the body dies; you are left with an eternal soul that lacks a functional personality – a type of zombie spirit perhaps. The traditional concept of an eternal soul is that it is the primary source of personality that forms the unique individual that lives on after death. So really I don’t think your suggestion of personality being a hybrid brain/soul is workable.

In both the personalities the association of 'self' is the same and torn between the two personlities? is it not ?

So which personality survives after death?

Your questions are good ones if the soul is a mere inactive non-contributing observer.

From our discussion and my points above I don’t see that the soul as you have proposed it could be anything else other than a redundant and unnecessary entity.

So what do you really see as the role of the soul?

 

[everneo]

Cris,

Ok - but now consider what happens when the body dies; you are left with an eternal soul that lacks a functional personality – a type of zombie spirit perhaps. The traditional concept of an eternal soul is that it is the primary source of personality that forms the unique individual that lives on after death. So really I don’t think your suggestion of personality being a hybrid brain/soul is workable.

I presume that the personality i have now would not be exactly same after the body dies in the sense, for example, say some of my physical attributes (like charm, strength, sex etc or lack of them) contribute to some extent to my personality now, but in the absence of physical body the standalone soul being cut-off from material realm has no use for them in the spirtual realm, but the associated experiences and effects of these physical attributes are supposed to trail the soul as per the religious belief systems.

So which personality survives after death?

The soul would be in quite a mess of mixture of both.

From our discussion and my points above I don’t see that the soul as you have proposed it could be anything else other than a redundant and unnecessary entity.

So what do you really see as the role of the soul?

My personal opinion is both the material & the spiritual realms are 'illusion' and the ultimate reality transcends and encompasses these two realms; Biblical/Quaranic YEHWEH (the one who is), Hindu vedantic Brahman (tatvam asi - It is me) and Buddhist Nirvana (supreme reality) all are the one & the same transcending & immanent ultimate reality.

 

[(Q)]

When people pray to God, they pray to themselves, they talk with themselves, not God.

At least we agree on one thing.

 

[MarcAC]

A solution is inevitable.

Solution meaning something (state) we can (or are willing to) live with, sure [no pun intended]. Whether it is in our lifetime(s) or not is another story. We still haven't unlocked all the secrets of bodily systems and most likely haven't discovered them all.

As in many cases, however, we may never realise the necessity of some element (say, the soul) of our being until it is taken away. We may not be able to directly detect and thus acknowledge its presence. Doesn't affect its necessity, but we may live on in our ignorance.

 

[Cris]

MarcAC,

Yet I am perfectly happy as I am and would likely continue to be so if it weren't for the probability of future death. That I might be ignorant that I have a soul seems quite irrelevant if I am happy and never die.

As for in my lifetime - agreed - but then there is cryogenics via vitrification for me until a solution becomes avaialble.

 

[Cris]

Everneo,

I presume that the personality i have now would not be exactly same after the body dies in the sense, for example, say some of my physical attributes (like charm, strength, sex etc or lack of them) contribute to some extent to my personality now, but in the absence of physical body the standalone soul being cut-off from material realm has no use for them in the spirtual realm, but the associated experiences and effects of these physical attributes are supposed to trail the soul as per the religious belief systems.

Just what sort of personality would you have just as a soul – remember you would have no memory, no ability to gain new memories, no sight, no hearing, no taste, no ability to speak, no ability to experience emotions (needs a brain), and no mind (needs a brain).

What is left? Just exactly what is a soul?

My personal opinion is both the material & the spiritual realms are 'illusion' and the ultimate reality transcends and encompasses these two realms; Biblical/Quaranic YEHWEH (the one who is), Hindu vedantic Brahman (tatvam asi - It is me) and Buddhist Nirvana (supreme reality) all are the one & the same transcending & immanent ultimate reality.

Ok I understand. I have read many such descriptions. The problem I see here is that many if not all of these scripts were devised and developed long before we knew anything about the function of the brain. These ideas have had millennia to develop and they often seem so sincere and deep, yet they are all based on human imaginings that lacked the knowledge of modern physiology. In this light they are pure fantasy that have been superseded by modern knowledge.

 

[MarcAC]

MarcAC,
As for in my lifetime - agreed - but then there is cryogenics via vitrification for me until a solution becomes avaialble.

Thanks for the update - interesting; I shall explore that myself so that in the future I may be able to see the verification of your continued happiness.

 

[Cris]

MarcAC,

But I thought you were a theist - death isn't a problem for you right? But yeah go get vitrified and we'll talk more when we are revived.

 

[MarcAC]

MarcAC,

But I thought you were a theist - death isn't a problem for you right? But yeah go get vitrified and we'll talk more when we are revived.

Physical death a problem; yes: not as much as spiritual however.

The best part for me is this; after being revived we may then directly acknowledge either the presence or absence of an afterlife/soul... or not... many possibilites. For some things only time will tell.

 

[Cris]

marc.

Physical death a problem; yes: not as much as spiritual however.

Yet we know of phyiscal death but the spiritual is still fantasy.

Time? Perhaps, but if as I suspect there is no spiritual realm and we do achieve phsyical immortality then the fantasy of the spiritual might also persist forever.

 

[everneo]

Cris,

Just what sort of personality would you have just as a soul – remember you would have no memory, no ability to gain new memories, no sight, no hearing, no taste, no ability to speak, no ability to experience emotions (needs a brain), and no mind (needs a brain).

You described the dead body. I don't know the nature of soul. Loosely, the mirror server here is dead, i don't know about the main server and its configuration and the architecture implemented. I lost all the connectivity.

What is left? Just exactly what is a soul?

A soul was decribed as the one that has just bliss as its natural state but the 'illusion' ties it to karma all subsequent afflictions.

Ok I understand. I have read many such descriptions. The problem I see here is that many if not all of these scripts were devised and developed long before we knew anything about the function of the brain. These ideas have had millennia to develop and they often seem so sincere and deep, yet they are all based on human imaginings that lacked the knowledge of modern physiology. In this light they are pure fantasy that have been superseded by modern knowledge.

OK, using our modern neurophysiology, please tell me why just a half the weight of the brain (right hemisphere) is sufficient for a human child to function normally ? Loss of data, functionality and almost total break down is what is expected, right ?

 

[Cris]

Everneo,

OK, using our modern neurophysiology, please tell me why just a half the weight of the brain (right hemisphere) is sufficient for a human child to function normally ? Loss of data, functionality and almost total break down is what is expected, right ?

I couldn’t find any case studies where after surgery (hemispherectomy) to remove half the brain any patient ever regained fully normal brain function. I’d like to find more references especially in children where one of the hemispheres never developed.

Human physiology is fundamentally a fault tolerant system. We have two arms, two legs, two eyes, two ears, two brain hemispheres, two kidneys, two breasts, two testicles, etc. It would seem that we can experience any single component failure and not have a complete system failure. The result is continued functioning although at reduced capacity and ability. A notable exception of course is the heart, seems evolution could never resolve this but instead had it behind a set of bones (rib cage) for protection. Apparently one side of the brain does have the ability to learn and acquire the functions of the other hemisphere to some extent, although never completely.

 

[okinrus]

Cris, what do you mean by a split personality that occurs with brain damage? I could buy someone having different roles, and perhaps not being able to control these roles at different moments, and perhaps even blocking out what one role does, but, with the way for which you're presenting it, it's like someone's personality A is not conscious of what personality B does, like demonic possesion, I think? But someone's split personality can't tell us anything. Ivan the terrible was an evil guy, right? But modern historians have found that he was ********, and that his personality, most especially his rage, was influenced by this poisoning. So, now look at me. At times physical stimuli might tell me, my soul, to go into rage. I try not to, of course. But for someone else, who's physical stimuli is always telling them to go into rage, they'll be quite a bit more sour, whether they choose to or not. In the same way, I've probalby blocked out some of the bad things. If my brain was damaged in an accident, and this damage forced my soul to see only the bad things without blocking them, I'd have a much more sour disposition. See, our physical stimuli comes from the world around us. But if someone's brain is damaged, their view of the world is no longer valid, and their rage, not caused by the world, but by their distorted view of the world.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

okinrus: Cris, what do you mean by a split personality that occurs with brain damage?
*************
M*W: Science has learned that children born with some type of brain damage often do have split personalities. For example, I know of a young man who is moderately mentally retarded. His mother refuses to see her mentally challenged child has also acquired a serious personality. Unrelated to the mental retardation, the split personality and bi-polarism result from the same brain lesions that caused the mental retardation, and they often don't appear until they are teenagers. In fact, this particular mom hasn't even addressed her child's retardation. She simply tells people "he's small for his age," and that "he's developmentally delayed." All the while, this individual is not getting the kind of medication he needs for his particular problems. It's difficult enough for normal people to understand they may need psychiatric medications. Sometimes it's impossible for parents of the mentally challenged to understand the need for medication for the retarded.

I believe some brain lesions could be caused by prenatal ultrasound. Once the brain receives a sound zap, that part of the brain is essentially boiled. On MRI it looks like blisters on the brain. This can cause mental retardation. Depending where the brain receives the zap affects that particular part of the brain. In this young man I know, the nerves had lesions on cranial nerve #9 & 13, so it has caused serious speech impediments, language and reading delays. He's nearly 20 and can only read on first grade level. He has an IQ of 50.

In the olden days, people believed that any abnormal behavior was the work of demons. Today we can get rid of those demons with proper medication.

 

[okinrus]

M*W, modern psychology has gone a long way in eliminating some cases, for which before was thought to be the work of demons.

Not all cases are so easy. A patient must first go to psychologist, but the catholic church does occasionally approve of an exorcism. It usually works, though in some cases it's the person's own beliefs holding them back not the demons.

My description of demons, here, is only an analogy. If someone has multiple personalities, it's possible that some point in time the soul's experience and memory are radically different than at another point in time, causing the personality shift. But I wouldn't leap to the conclusion there's a different soul. In Cris's model what we call the soul is described by some physical analog. For his argument to be valid here, we'd have to have two physical analogs to the soul, both able to run at the same time but somehow not.

For example, I know of a young man who is moderately mentally retarded. His mother refuses to see her mentally challenged child has also acquired a serious personality. Unrelated to the mental retardation, the split personality and bi-polarism result from the same brain lesions that caused the mental retardation, and they often don't appear until they are teenagers.

Okay, but someone's who's bipolar likely observes he or she goes through the periods. In their description, it's them who've experienced the manic depression.

In fact, this particular mom hasn't even addressed her child's retardation. She simply tells people "he's small for his age," and that "he's developmentally delayed."

That's reasonable. There's so much stigma attached to mental retardation that calling someone moderately retarded might as be saying they can't enjoy life. A lot depends on what you believe your're capable. Believe you're capable of nothing, be nothing.

 

[Cris]

okinrus,

what do you mean by a split personality that occurs with brain damage?

I am referring to the cases where the corpus callosum has been severered and the communication between the two hemispheres has been lost. Each hemisphere then tends to develop independently of each other with each developing its own personality.