the sexual life of Jesus and God
- Thread starter GB-GIL Trans-global
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no money
Avatar...I am too poor to travel now. We will see if life and income makes it possible to visit. Perhaps we can have a beer while overlooking some fantastic scenery!
There is more to Job than what your predisposed hatred of a God who you suppose murders families to win a debate. Read it and learn. Treat it as a myth, fable or fairy tale and see what you think.
Self-contradictory to say universal truth = no universal truth. If someone steals your computer, you will not say that stealing is OK for that person, so that means I cannot say stealing is wrong. You will try to get it back or have the theif punished. If I say the black berets just are people of different opinions and you should let them do what they want because oppression is just another persons opinion..what would you think of me then?
uz redzi[I like this],
hippo
Sorry about the wrong words..I tried a Latvian English dictionary online. I may try more...
Avatar...I am too poor to travel now. We will see if life and income makes it possible to visit. Perhaps we can have a beer while overlooking some fantastic scenery!
There is more to Job than what your predisposed hatred of a God who you suppose murders families to win a debate. Read it and learn. Treat it as a myth, fable or fairy tale and see what you think.
Self-contradictory to say universal truth = no universal truth. If someone steals your computer, you will not say that stealing is OK for that person, so that means I cannot say stealing is wrong. You will try to get it back or have the theif punished. If I say the black berets just are people of different opinions and you should let them do what they want because oppression is just another persons opinion..what would you think of me then?
The bible is full of good ideas...re-read it and file your own patents
If you believe this to be true, then what is the source of this knowledge...someone in the divine realm, perhaps?
Good for you...
I understand this...but am I mistaken that you were participating in the theme? The only difference is that you responded to my critique...you were the brave one.
How about Saint Francis? Saint Anthony? Mother Teresa? These folks found their faith very worthy or respect and lived by the teachings AND are worthy of respect themselves.
uz redzi[I like this],
hippo
Sorry about the wrong words..I tried a Latvian English dictionary online. I may try more...
I also have no money. traveling must wait
First we see that Job was a pure man, a man of god
The temple described by Ezikel still exists in South America and is called Chav¨ªn de Hu¨¢ntar . It is a complete copy of the Ezikels description. As you know Ezikel did measurements and described how the temple was built, it's structure and how it looked around the place. Chav¨ªn de Hu¨¢ntar is an exact copy. Metre in metre.
l¨©dz n¨¡kamajai reizei (till the next time) ,
/Avatar/
[btw, if you want to view the fonts correctly- View->Encoding->Baltic]
I have studied the book of Job and came to the conclusion that Jobs' family was killed because of a phylosophical disput between christian god and Satan. The book of Job is, perhaps, the oldest book in the Bible. No one knows who wrote it. Some scholars think it may have been written by Moses, and perhaps it could have been, while some date it as late as the time of Solomon.
Job was a real man, not a mythological figure. He is mentioned by Ezekiel and he is classified as one of the three great men of the Old Testament, along with Noah and Daniel .
First we see that Job was a pure man, a man of god
and he very loved his family
and he was quite rich.. Then comes the servant of God - Satan and they have a dispute
(Satan means "the Adversary"). The results of the permission->
but appaerntly Job still feared the god much so he choose the easy way->
isn't that pathetic. he is very afraid of his god now and he worships him out of it. And he knew that it was god not satan
So we here have a dispute between God and Satan, and Job is the test subjectt whose family god permits to kill. Would you like to be in Jobs place, Hippo?
that is no answer... you skipped intaniously , because it contradicts your views. The god which was seenn by Ecikel (sp) was an alien spaceship, a module between ground and high orbit. Well observed. Have you considered that all your gods and angels and sons of god in exodus have been aliens which came to earth ~2000 years ago (and earlyer, till the 15 000 bc)?
no- reading and observation. I have these materials printed in latvian. I'll try to translate them later maybe (very long). If I forget, please remind be ,ok?. btw, here is that space module
I know that the theme of this theme is bs, but nonthereless- god can't ahve sex, Yeshua could. I only said the truth, nothing more.
wheather you like black berrets or admit their action taken against me and our nation in whole to be good- it doesn't matter to me. It in no way affets me- what you think. What I will think of you? maybe that you have been misinformed , but nthing more. Although if black berrets come-> This time I am older and have weapons.
I don't need faith. Maybe read the thread about Latvian Paganism which I started in Religion forum. It could also be of some help to you
l¨©dz n¨¡kamajai reizei (till the next time) ,
/Avatar/
[btw, if you want to view the fonts correctly- View->Encoding->Baltic]
on the right track
My challenge to you has never been to disprove the reality of a man named Job; my challenge is to read through the eyes of a man who does not believe there is a God or Devil. This should be easy for you, no? If you were Job and you did not know the conversation of God and teh Devil, what would you make of the very humanly possible predicament of losing wealth, family and friends...having your life demolished. Does your life become meaningless? Should you just commit suicide? Or would you have a kernel of hope beyond hope that there is something more...that love and goodness do exist? That a reason for life exists? Let's say you are correct that a God such as you read into Job is basically evil, or plays games with our lives for His benefit. Is this not like a powerful figure which can order your death or life...steal your riches or make you rich beyond your wildest dreams? Would you defy this powerful figure to his face and risk death? From the pessimistic view, the submission to the most powerful authority may mean little today, but it was the norm for Job's time, usually in the theocratic power of a 'divine' ruler. In Job we see something which is incredible, a submission to a being who permits or stays the evils of the world. From Job's view, he does not know that God and the Devil have any conversation. He does not know what is going on or why. It is the root of the question, from Job's perspective, why is evil permitted to fall on the good and the evil without any sense of justice. The dialogues begin an understanding of a Deity and a monotheism of a personal God who is intimately involved in the individual's lives throughout history.
Job is not now afraid of God according to the text, he is re-affirming his submission.
The picture of the Ezekiel's spaceship is not showing up. I know nothing of the synchretism studies of space ships and temples...you would be as hard pressed to 'prove' this as I am to prove that the God you disbelieve in is real.
I used the opinion thought on black berets to illustrate that there must be a right and wrong or else everything is just a matter of opinion. I personally know zero about the black berets, other than what you have told me.
Jesus, Yesua, could have had sex, yes, but there is no evidence that he did. I am saying if you participate in suggesting that he did then you are pandering to the slandering against a good man [God born into the world to me]
Here is my tag line for you...and I will keep posting it, since you avoid it:
I still think the reason you shy away from Christianity is mainly because you want to get laid and do not want anyone to tell you that your sexual escapades are wrong.
uz redzi,
hippo
My challenge to you has never been to disprove the reality of a man named Job; my challenge is to read through the eyes of a man who does not believe there is a God or Devil. This should be easy for you, no? If you were Job and you did not know the conversation of God and teh Devil, what would you make of the very humanly possible predicament of losing wealth, family and friends...having your life demolished. Does your life become meaningless? Should you just commit suicide? Or would you have a kernel of hope beyond hope that there is something more...that love and goodness do exist? That a reason for life exists? Let's say you are correct that a God such as you read into Job is basically evil, or plays games with our lives for His benefit. Is this not like a powerful figure which can order your death or life...steal your riches or make you rich beyond your wildest dreams? Would you defy this powerful figure to his face and risk death? From the pessimistic view, the submission to the most powerful authority may mean little today, but it was the norm for Job's time, usually in the theocratic power of a 'divine' ruler. In Job we see something which is incredible, a submission to a being who permits or stays the evils of the world. From Job's view, he does not know that God and the Devil have any conversation. He does not know what is going on or why. It is the root of the question, from Job's perspective, why is evil permitted to fall on the good and the evil without any sense of justice. The dialogues begin an understanding of a Deity and a monotheism of a personal God who is intimately involved in the individual's lives throughout history.
Job is not now afraid of God according to the text, he is re-affirming his submission.
The picture of the Ezekiel's spaceship is not showing up. I know nothing of the synchretism studies of space ships and temples...you would be as hard pressed to 'prove' this as I am to prove that the God you disbelieve in is real.
I gave a smart-ass answer because spaceship gods do not hold much sway in my conclusions. Saw Chariot of the Gods years ago...did not convince me....
I used the opinion thought on black berets to illustrate that there must be a right and wrong or else everything is just a matter of opinion. I personally know zero about the black berets, other than what you have told me.
Jesus, Yesua, could have had sex, yes, but there is no evidence that he did. I am saying if you participate in suggesting that he did then you are pandering to the slandering against a good man [God born into the world to me]
You must have faith in something...if it is not external, it must be yourself. I would contend that the self can be a poor substitute for a root of Truth. I will look up the thread.
Here is my tag line for you...and I will keep posting it, since you avoid it:
I still think the reason you shy away from Christianity is mainly because you want to get laid and do not want anyone to tell you that your sexual escapades are wrong.
uz redzi,
hippo
in these kind of situations I just blame my luck. But because I've always been somewhat lucky I'm thankful to Laima (our godess of luck ) and wish her all the best.
I might suggest you to read one of Erich von Daniken's books. He is right in a lot of places, but read carefully. In some places he tries to create evidence from thin air.
There is no evidence Alexander the Great did it, there is no evidence Moses did, there is no evidence you did! In those times not all was recorded and especially not the sexual life of jews.
I believe in myself and our world/nature. No divine being required.
I can in all my honesty assure you that my position towards organised religion , especially christianity , has nothing to do with my sexual life.
I'll maybe repost one my other thread here for your answer.
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Humans have evolved. From ape to homo eructus to homo sapiens, maybe later to homo electronicus; who knows... But there is also another kind of evolution and it happens in our minds. Now scientists have agreed that what developed first was our body - first we looked human, only then we became human.
Humans are a tribal society driven by fear from the unknown. It was like that and till wery recently it was only a religious fear from some mistical forces (god/s).
Nowadays humans have also started to fear from themselves or what they might become or acomplish (see. movie Terminator, Matrix, Aliens). Some are very afraid and go to extremes- (live in forests with no technology or whatever. They are fundamentalists of fear as much as christians are. Christians believe in their God, but really they believe in fear. They say they love their god, but why do they fear from him then (see. comandments, Sodom, Gomohr, the great flood). Nowaday religion is the cult of the advanced sciences. Who knows - maybe in 200 years they will worship some A.I. But the key factor remains - fear.
Fear for itself isn't "bad" , nothing is - all is relative. Fear is one of our basic instincts, it helps us to survive. But with religion people have created fear for themselves. Why? Maybe because they started to build cityes and life became less dangerous and they needed to compensate it somehow. Thus destructive gods appeared. Interesting that the fear from gods was equal or proportional to the governmental institution advancement in particular regions/cultures. Where people were very independent in ancient times - like in Latvia - there was no fear from gods. Life was good and if smth bad happened then it was because of humans.
Where we see more "advanced" governmental control over its citizens there is a big religious influence. Primary driven by fear. See- Egyptians, Romans, Jews, Azteks, Hets. The state used religion to control the nation and the nation was in fear from the despotic rulers and their method of control aka religion. In ancient greek democracy people were more free, they had more rights and thus we see that they didn't fear from their gods. They were a part of their culture/society. Rome is an interesting example. In it's late existance period (and not so late) after year 100a.d. Romans more and more stopped believing their ancient gods, became more free thinking. Government saw that it is losing its control- then christianity came. An ultimate crowd control tool. Why else do you think it was made the state religion? Fear controls humans- as in subconscious and in consciouss state. If speaking of particularry christianity then I admit it is a well done control tool. So many leaders, despots have used it and use it; today also (see. Muslin countries, the USA (in god we trust, daily pledge, self declared itself a christianic nation).
Fear is nothing bad - take away fear and take away some part of humans in us. But fear from smth different, not the crowd control tools (religions).
Why do so many people "follow" different realigions , make themselves and their lives dependent from them? Why do they, when say they love freedom, they sell it to some mistical being? Governments also play a role in this. It is easyer to control such people, because they have common fears. Generally speaking - many people with one shot.But still- why people fall mostly for religions that include fear from god, or a destructive god, or hell or some powers that are dangerous to human species?
I have a speculation/theory. Humans are addicted to fear. They go to watch horror movies, go to theme parks and ride dangerous and high adneralin(sp) attraction, do bunjee jumping, etc. But it all is only temporary, the effect lasts not long after the process. Religion threatens you during your life, till you are alive(see. won't be good, you'll boil in lakes of fire). It's a daily process. Humans are adicted to fear and they also take pleasure from it (fear and pain can be pleasarus. I know- during trainings when we hit eachother, train blocking a, after some time you fall in a trance like comdition). So christians saying that they love god- they lie. They love fear, fear which gives them pleasure. It's like being stoned. But there is smth terribly wrong in this (religious affetion). 1. people lose some control on their lives. 2. in general these kind of people are more easy to manipulate. 3. They lose their rational thinking over time. Thus fear- which is/was the major key element in our evolution may become an element of regression for many of us. Back to the ape.
My solution? Humans must get rid of self established contol tools. They have created an autonomous control system (centralised and organised religion) that they themselves have lost contol of. Just like in some sci-fi stories where an A.I. takes over the world. Only in our case the "A.I." isn't smart, it can't make the world a better place. Humans must destroy tht "A.I." and take back control on their lives. Fear won't be destroyed, there are so much other things to fear of (see. metiorite strikes, overpopulation, global temperature increase, pollution, etc). These kind of fears/problems can not take over our world like the religions (A.I.'s) do. They can be ended with, a solution can be found and by destroying that fear, we'll advance ourselves.
Religion is bad because it can not be ended with, it can not be disproved completely, there is no solution for a religion, because for everyone the religion is different. The only solution is the destruction of organised religion. It's like cancer which wants to live forever, but really is destroying our organism/human race. It must be operated and destroyed.. Medicine/other religions, religios reforms / can only take the pain away temporary.
Religion is like drugs (see. addiction to realigion/fear) which if too much used destroys our brain cells.
Our solution for the problem is destruction of that problem, because no other means are possible. And the only primary function of our race is still survival. But we have infected the survival princip (which is equal to fear, survival isntinct is powered by fear) with religion, we have infected our own evolution process, we are destroying ourselves (those who don't adapt , die out - natures's laws). We are all aware of physical threats (see. overpopulation , pollution, etc), but few are aware of the threats to our intelect/mind. We have created the religion (threat to our existance) , we must destroy it, we must survive, we must evolve; or die.....
dzîve ir skaista arî bez dieva*,
Avatar
*life is also beautiful with no god
what is and isn't
Forgive the poor translation...I am doing my best at this new language:
vissvarigakais vards, skaista, majot karaliste del Dievs*
I have tried to say:
The operative word, beauty, belongs in the realm of God
uz redzi,
hippo
If the testimony and traditions of Alexander and Moses held that they did not have sex, and there was no evidence that they did have sex, then there is no reason to demand that they must have had sex. My point is that a human may remain celibate. This is a possibility.
Self is a dangerous idol and nature could care less whether you live or die or even exist. YOu are in the image and likeness of the divine and nature is a manifestation of divine complexity and beauty.
Fear is the imperfect root of a worship of a God, the message of Jesus is the unique key to the reality of our relationship to God, a faith rooted in Love. Love God with your whole heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself. This is not fear and destroys fear as the important aspect of faith.
Crowd control? How, first by feeding the lions, and crucifixions, torture and murder? Or later when people converted in droves from all levels of society? When the ideals of Christianity defied the deification of the Emperors? This is not crowd control, this is liberation from the worshippers of self and nature who crowned themselves as gods on earth.
I do not lie on this account; You are generalizing in your interpretation. Do some Christians wallow in fear, yes. Is this the correct behavior of a Christian based on its message? No.
1. What loss of control? If anything, true believers are demanded to have self-control and live a very self-reflective life..to be aware of their motives and temptations and try to perfect themselves 2. The martyrs were not manipulated, many died because they could NOT be manipulated into bowing before the Emperor. Many religious in general DEFY manipulation by fighting back against agents of oppression. Did the Catholic Church, the Lutherans, etc., kiss the ass of the black berets? Or did they defy manipulation and secretly work to undermine the oppressors? 3. Many decades have passed and my rational thinking is intact. Many great intellects of religious thinking retained their rational thought throughout their lives into old age. Perhaps your motivations in life are fear...perhaps you should convert to a holy life, a priesthood and liberate yourself from your fear. Have you ever considered studying to become a good priest? There is a need for good priests who live by the teachings and do not sex it up with boys.
Wow, you go further than Karl Marx...Again, so the faith that inspired Mother Theresa, Saint Francis, Bonhoffer, Frankl, etc. should be demolished?
Forgive the poor translation...I am doing my best at this new language:
vissvarigakais vards, skaista, majot karaliste del Dievs*
I have tried to say:
The operative word, beauty, belongs in the realm of God
uz redzi,
hippo
maybe this is lazy, but only read the first page of the thread and just wanted to say that almost all of you have a completely distorted view of christian theology, i mean with good reason, a lot of christians are idiots and misrepresent themselves, because they don't even know what they believe anyways.
But lets pretend for a second that it is possible to derive some kind of generic christian theology from the bible. you guys have no idea what it is, that is my only point. Just wouldn't go talking about it like you guys DO know about it.
sorry, not a flame. just sayin.
its like when christian creationists talk about evolution...they really have no idea what they are saying.same applies here.
But lets pretend for a second that it is possible to derive some kind of generic christian theology from the bible. you guys have no idea what it is, that is my only point. Just wouldn't go talking about it like you guys DO know about it.
sorry, not a flame. just sayin.
its like when christian creationists talk about evolution...they really have no idea what they are saying.same applies here.
considering that 99% of people have had sex during their lives it is not likable. of course that 1% remains
my views are different. I am not in any image. I am what I am. I am divine and beautiful for myself.
I do not find any reasons to love your god. why should I?
'yes first there were feedings and burnings, but when the romans saw the advantages of christianity it was made the official state religion. And how many other belief followers have been killed and burned by christians?... It was not a crowd control tool only in the first 1 or 2 hundred of years.
Of course I am. Do you want me to interview every christian on the planet?? I'm speajking about the majority.
they lose control because they are told what is bad and for what will you go to hell. Generally I'm talking about the freedom of choice here.
you are talking about the past, I am talking about the present.
actually they did. every priest in soviet times had to sign a contract with KGB or be sent to far north. It was about tht every priest must reveal what secrets he has been told of, what people have asked him to bless their children etc. In soviet times every man knew that every priest is a KGB agent.
no fear hippo. I am actually saying that the motivations in life is fear for most religious people. Fear for me is just one of mine instincts. And no- I'm a priest only for myself. I respect everybody's free choice and do not preach anybody about my views. In your case it is discussion.
fait should be based on other than religious beliefs.
vissvarigakais vards, skaista, majot karaliste del Dievs*
The operative word, beauty, belongs in the realm of God
our grammar is very hard. the words are right but
vissvarigakais vards, skaistums, pieder Dieva karalistei
hmmmmmmmmmm, to actually understand my thoughts about the gods and such I propose you read the following.
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Latvian Paganism
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THE ANCIENT LATVIAN RELIGION — DIEVTURÎBA
TUPEÐU JANIS*
INTRODUCTION
At the outset, some explanatory remarks are in order.
(i) If the ancient Latvians had been asked what their religion is, they would have been baffled by the meaning of the question. Their religion was their way-of-life (dzives zina) and ultimate concerns were not couched in abstract dogmas or analytical cannons. The highest aim of human life was to live in harmony with Nature and other members of society — to follow the will of the gods. Personal worth and integrity was expressed in terms of possessing the many Virtues, and there was no need for conceptualizing such religious metaphors as sin, atonement or redemption.1
(ii) This article is meant to be neither apologetic nor condescending. The author assumes the plurality of all religious convictions and considers any system of thoughts, actions and experiences that allow individuals and societies to make sense out of their world, as equally valid and worthy. I do not think it is important how religion is defined, or even if it is defined at all. As we approach the twenty-first century, it is important what system of values individuals and societies possess, not what dogmas they profess. Of course, these considerations did not concern the ancient Latvians. But then again, they were not part of a rich culture on the verge of forced genocide and self-chosen extinction.2
(iii) Dievturîba — both the name and the systematized Latvian way of looking at the world are twentieth century phenomena. Using the Latvian Dainas3 as their main source of orally transmitted wisdom and traditional values, a group of intellectuals, writers and artists after many meetings and debates decided that instead of synchretizing the ancient Latvian wisdom within the Christian dogma, the uniquely Latvian encounter with the sacred is worthy enough to carve its own destiny.4 Starting with a small group of convinced enthusiasts, the movement gained momentum in the mid-thirties and is very much alive today.
The Latvian language does not have a word for 'to have.' The Latvians say 'to me is.' Utilizing the old Baltic form 'turëti,' Brastinð called a person who holds or possesses Dievs (God) according to the ancient Latvian tradition, a Dievturis. The name has become part of the Latvian language and a Dievturis, following perennial wisdom, is literally a God-keeper or possessor.
(iv) Both the physical and social sciences are undergoing a paradigm shift.5 A paradigm is defined as follows: A constellation of concepts, values, perceptions and practices shared by a community, which forms a particular vision of reality that is the basis of the way the community organizes itself. The Latvian religion, Dievturiba, encompasses such a vision of reality. The community consists of all the God-keepers, past and present.
The Latvian way of viewing the world is not only a historical reality, but a living force consistent with all the criteria of the new paradigm thinking in science. These criteria are:
A. Shift from the parts to the whole. Basically, there are no parts at all. What we call a part is merely a pattern in an inseparable web of relationships.
B. Shift from objective knowledge to one dependent on the human observer. The understanding of the process of knowledge has to be included explicitly in the description of natural phenomena.
C. Shift from fundamental laws to a network of relationships. The metaphor of basic building blocks is being replaced by that of an inseparable network.
D. Shift from truth to approximate descriptions. This means that all concepts and theories in science are limited and approximate.
E. Shift from structure to process. The entire web of relationships is intrinsically dynamic.
F. Shift from domination and control of nature to cooperation and non-violence. The patriarchal idea of 'man dominating nature' is transforming into the matriarchal concept of man and woman living/participating in nature.
Implicit in the new paradigm are transformed values and practices — religious attitudes and convictions that the late twentieth century Latvian can accept and, at the same time, incorporate the values and symbols of the earlier agricultural societies into the contemporary world paradigm.
(v) Although officially christianized in the thirteenth century, the ancient Latvians did not accept Christianity until the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries — and then only superficially. The main reason for this was the non-acceptance of the indigenous population as equals by the ruling German nobility. The language used in the churches for many centuries was either Latin or German and the Latvians simply could not understand what was being preached from the pulpit. These factors, along with the many punitive acts inflicted by the ruling German landowners, forced the indigenous population to keep their old traditions, deities and basic social structure. The cement for this continuity was the Dainas.6 With their strict metric and tonic structure, the Latvian folk songs helped memorization and prevented unchecked substitution of new words and phrases. Also, for almost 600 years, the Latvian culture was that of the peasant class, subject to forced isolation from the so-called 'higher and more advanced' culture of the German barons.
(vi) The New Encyclopaedia Britannica defines religion as man's relation to that which he regards as holy.7 The 'holy' need not be thought of as supernatural, much less personal. This definition includes religions with or without God-god(s), monotheistic or polytheistic — it dissolves the theism/atheism boundary, permitting religions to be operative within the context of scientific reason.
Its critics have labeled Dievturîba as pagan, folkloristic and polytheistic. The EB interpretation of religion obviates these criticisms as meaningless. Religions are not inherently and absolutely good or bad — they are all functions of some culturally dependent definitional codex.
The rest of this paper will describe "man's relation to that which he regards as holy," as it applies to the Latvian religion Dievturiba. The scope of the description will consist of the traditional categories and functional analyses of any religion: (i) God/god(s), if any (ii) values and codes of conduct (iii) ritual and (iv) ultimate metaphysics (life, death and meaning itself).
GOD/DIEVS8
The original research of Brastinu Ernests revealed some 4,000 dainas dealing with the subject of Dievs. The conceptualization of Dievs has changed and evolved as it has in most religions. From a once impersonal, ubiquitous force, already centuries before our era, the bright sky became the sky-God. Long before the thirteenth century, continued anthropomorphisation created the complete image of the Latvian Dievs (frequently used is the diminutive form, Dievinð): full of goodness, ever present, ultimate dispenser of all the virtues and representing everything that is (Vedantic Brahman). Such was the conceptualization of Dievs/God that the first missionaries encountered when they set foot on Latvian soil. Due to the factors already cited, Dievs underwent little synchretisation during Latvia's Christian centuries.
Dievs can be interpreted as (i) a unity: all that exists, transforms and remains, (ii) duality: the matter/spirit interface, (iii) trinity: matter, energy and the evolving, unifying and maximizing laws of the Cosmos/Visums and (iv) plurality: all the multifaceted and multifunctional deities of the Latvian Pantheon. According to EB's definition of religion, they are all valid ways of encountering the holy. Dievs is invisible and inaudible, imparting his wisdom padoms to all of creation. The highest gift that Dievs can bestow on man is 'laime' — luck, benevolent fate and happiness. For example, one daina relates that:
The skylark sings higher than all other birds;
Dievs' wisdom is higher and beyond this entire world.9
But this bestowal and all other relationships between Dievs and man are personal. There were no institutions or other intermediaries interceding for, or acting on behalf of, the individual seeking the help or counsel of Dievs.10
Since the Latvian religion is not dogmatic, prophetic or revelationary, every individual can choose his own interface with Dievs. Those Latvians needing a creator and ruler have their Dievs. Those who cannot accept something as being created out of nothing also have their Dievs: the eternal, ever changing universe with its inherent laws and punctuated, localized creations. But those not concerned with the big, analytical and 'ultimate truths' also have their Dievs: the personification and highest ideal of all that is good, virtuous, noble and just. Another daina informs us:
Oh, Dievs, what will you do when we all pass away?
Thou hast no father, mother, nor a bride to call your own.
In the dualistic interpretation of Dievs, Mâra is the symbol of the world of matter — she encompasses all of the material existence. There is considerable controversy among scholars about the synchretic matrix of the Mâra/Mary controversy, i.e., who was here first?11 Without doubt, living within the confines of centuries-long, but unaccepted Christianity, some synchretism had to transpire. However, Mâra already appears in the Vedas, Upanishads and many other remnants of the ancient Aryan peoples of northwestern Europe and the Mediterranean region. She is the Mother of all mothers (the Latvians have more than sixty of them mentioned in the dainas and folk tales) — The Great Mother/Goddess.
We know that matter is in a constant flux and change. Certainly, the ancient Latvians also knew this and personified the many aspects of Nature as the changing manifestations of Mâra — Earth Mother, Wind Mother, Mother of the Sea, and so forth.
From the approximately 1,700 dainas that mention Mâra, we can discern her three main functions: the giver, preserver and finally the taker of life (Veïu Mâte). These three aspects of the Great Mother permeate all Indo-European religions and folklore but, in the Latvian, it is noticeably voluminous and present in all the main phases of one's life cycle.12
In the triune interpretation of Dievs, the mediator between Dievs and Mâra is the Goddess of Fate, Laime/Laima. Like Dievs, Laime cannot be seen. Being just another aspect of Dievs, she is everywhere. Even though Laime determines a person's unchanbeable destiny at the moment of birth, the individual still has to choose between good and bad within the broad limits prescribed by her decree.
Nearly all mythologies bear traces of the triple goddess of fate, rulers of the past, present and future — virgin, mother and crone/destroyer. This female trinity assumes many guises, especially in western religions. There are many traces of her in the Latvian religion.
And finally, in the pluralistic interpretation of Dievs, besides the Latvian trinity of Dievs, Mâra and Laime, there is a multitude of mythological and folk-tale figures. These parallel the lesser deities of many other cultures and religions. There is a plethora of sky divinities (Saule, Mçness, Pçrkons, Auseklis, Ûðins), agricultural deities (Jumis, Þiedu Mâte), cthonic goddesses (Veïu Mâte, Kapu Mâte) and synchretized Christian saints (Mârtins, Pçteris, Miíelis, and possibly Jânis13). All of these are personalized natural phenomena and processes, reflecting the tendency of the ancient Latvians to personalize and encompass all of nature within the recurring cycles of life. Most of them have families, homesteads, human qualities and serve as the metaphoric mediaries between man and the multiform Dievs.
VALUES AND CODES OF CONDUCT
For the ancient Latvians and the modern-day Dievturi, the meaning and purpose of life is to live in harmony with the repeating rhythms of Nature (this includes all the gods — even Dievs himself!) and other members of society. This means that a harmonious life is self-justifying — there is no meaning beyond life itself.
The attitude toward life is positive and optimistic (until fairly recently!). One strives for the possession of virtue(s), not the avoidance of sin(s). In fact, the concept of sin is foreign to the dainas.
Life's most basic purpose is to be good. This unwritten imperative implies that if everyone were good, there would be no room for evil or bad luck. All of the virtues guiding one's conduct can be broken down into three categories: (i) the virtues of life and Dievs, (ii) the basic self-ethics or virtues for oneself and (iii) the communal ethics, or the basic virtues as they relate to others.
The two virtues in the first category admonish: Be good! and Be reverential and full of awe for Dievs! The entire code of ethics for the ancient Latvians was positive in tone. One was basically taught what to do and what to be, not what not to do and be.
The four fundamental virtues for self-enhancement and behavior are: Be wise! Be diligent/active! Be beautiful, clean and orderly! and Be cheerful! Wisdom includes the awareness of good things and values, an understanding of goals and purposes. And only wisdom can determine proper behavior toward self, others and Dievs. The virtue of work leads to success both in the mental and material world. Many a daina states that Dievs will not enter a homestead that is not orderly, clean and cheerful.
The last category of virtues are virtues of compatibility: Be full of love! Be easy to live with! Be generous! and Be just! These four virtues provided directives for the Latvians in their interactions with relatives, neighbors, strangers and other clans/nations.
Evil in the Christian sense does not exist as a functional concept. One simply speaks of bad fortune and not living with the dictates of the above virtues. The source of bad things happening is caused by man himself. Nature and the world, including all the calamities, is basically neutral — it simply is. Man determines what to do with it, for better or worse.
SACRED RITUAL
Typologically, the ancient Latvian religion is an agricultural religion. The movements of the heavenly bodies and the agricultural cycles which they engender determined a set, never-ending, but highly structured spiral of existence. The solstices and equinoxes determined the basic framework for this structure. To these correspond Jâni (summer solstice), Winter festival (winter solstice), Lielâ diena/Easter (spring equinox) and the many autumnal harvest festivals (fall equinox).14
Interspersed among these are the many planting, harvest and other communal celebrations. All these cyclical festivities determine sacred times and rituals with appropriate songs, dances, foods and other activities. Dievs and other deities are welcome participants in all of these rituals. It is also characteristic of these festivals that some form of fire and honey mead is always present.
The cosmic clock which determines the rhythms and patterns of the festivities is, of course, the Sun. There are literally thousands of Sun-dainas consoling, advising and providing a role model of the individual to follow. The mythological astral family provides the proper metaphor for the ever-recurring manifestations on earth: birth, growth, fruition and death. Through this metaphor the agricultural religion of the ancient Latvians is at the same time an astral religion — as above, so below.
Corresponding to the birth, growth and death in Nature, the Latvians also ordered their lives by the life-cycles of the people themselves. The beginning, middle and end of life — the rites of passage — were also marked by sacred and festive celebrations: the first related to the birth (name-giving ceremony), the second to the courtship and wedding ritual, and the last to death.
The modern Dievturis has not abandoned these sacred festivals and rites of passage. Many of the age-old, traditional rituals have taken the form of sacred games.15 The nature of the game does not determine its importance or meaningfulness — the participants do. And to the Dievturis, the sacred games are important benchmarks for ethnic and cultural renewal — a self-chosen commitment to a nation, people, Dievs and life itself. Our last daina:
My countryman! Say the right words, follow the right path!
Then Dievs himself will help you never to go astray.
ULTIMATE METAPHYSICS/MERTAPHYSICS OF THE ULTIMATE
As already inferred earlier, the ancient Latvians did not find justification for the actions of this life in some transcendent, abstract reality beyond this world.16 Life was, and for many of us still is, its own justification. Hence, the ultimate goal is to live in harmony with the micro and macro-environment and other members of society, full of virtue and goodness. And this all occurs within the constraints imposed by Mother Destiny/Laime herself. It is a life of activity and duty — to oneself, to others and to Dievs.
The Latvians did not, and still don't, like to express their deepest convictions in complex abstractions and analytical language. Communication with, and interpretation of, reality is metaphoric, couched in the short-verse form of the Dainas.
The ancient Latvians and the Dievturi metaphorically express themselves as being constituted of three parts: the body, soul and velis.17 In this tri-partition of the Self, the physical body returns to Mother Earth/Mâra and the soul reunites with the Cosmic Mind/Dievs. Velis, the in-between of body and soul is what we would now call the high-energy body — the ultimate matter and energy interface. Traditionally it lingers on after physical death and as condensed high-frequency vibrations may return (in fact, the vibratory force field has never left) to the physical plane. If the language sounds like that taken from modern spiritualism or channeling, then one has only to read some popularized interpretations of the latest theorizing in hard core modern physics.18
As alluded to earlier, the meaning of life for the Dievturi and the ancient Latvians is/was found in living a virtuous, active and dutiful life. There is nothing to be saved from, nothing about which to repent and no sin to expiate. Everyone starts out life being good and determines his own destiny within the constraints of the probabilistic laws of Nature/Laime.
CONCLUSION
As in any article describing a specific religion, this short discourse has more omissions than specific descriptions of details. Also, since the Latvian religion does not have an unchanging dogma or infallible prophets, the previous description of the religion is only the author's interpretation.
Each culture and the individuals within that culture interpret reality somewhat differently. The Latvians have traditionally been an agricultural society and only recently, alas forcibly, has Latvia been transformed into an industrialized state. With respect to religion, the big question remains: "Can the old values and gods still give guidance and meaning to life as we approach the twenty-first century?"
My affirmative answer to the previous question is to be couched in the new paradigm shift in the physical and social sciences stated in the Introduction, namely:
A. Shift from the parts to the whole . . . The ancient Latvians have always maintained that all phenomena in Nature are intricately dependent on each other and that social interactions cannot be isolated from their physical counterparts in an inseparable web of dynamic relationships.
B. Shift from objective knowledge to one dependent on the human observer. . . This is consistent with the value system and epistemology of the individual. The world and the universe are value-neutral. Ethics and knowledge is situational and all responsibility is thrust upon the individual. Be wise, just, diligent, loving and compassionate!
C. Shift from fundamental laws to a network of relationships . . . The dainas continually stress the awe, enchantment and inexplicable mystery of Existence. Our well-being is not determined by its inherent and immutable absoluteness, but our culturally determined response to it.
D. Shift from truth to approximate description . . . There are no immutable truths and/or absolutes in the Latvian tradition. The physical/spiritual interface is always changing, a function of new discoveries, developments and interpretations of reality. This, for example, prevents the names of the old deities and personified abstractions becoming meaningless words in this changing world. No matter what interpretation is given to all of reality and its laws, the Dievturis calls it Dievs. No matter how 'physical matter' is partitioned in its basic building block nomenclature, we can call it Mâra. No matter what the probabilistic force-field laws determining our existence are, we can call it Laime/Destiny, and so forth.
E. Shift from structure to process. . . The old Latvian religion considered the entire world as one living organism, from a blade of grass to the extended astral family. This reflects a modified continuity of animistic beliefs. But this is exactly what the global brain, Gaia, self-organizing universe and universal consciousness theorists are saying.19
F. Shift from domination and control of nature to cooperation and non-violence . . . The entire ethos of the dainas and the ancient Latvian culture emphasizes this dictum. At no other time in the history of the world have we needed more non-violent, matriarchal and caring attitudes toward the world and each other.
The hard-line and fundamentalist Christian will consider the Latvian religion as pagan, pantheistic and polytheistic, and in many respects it is. But to assign a value-judgment in this pluralistic, data base and information age is extremely problematic. Who is to say that the modern scientific age with all its answers has a better paradigm for survival and well-being than the perennial Wisdom and value system in the Sacred Dainas!
* The Dievturi are in the habit of writing their names in the typically Latvian format — the last name in the genitive plural, followed by the given name. Janis A. Tupesis received his Ph.D. in mathematics and mathematics education from the University of Wisconsin. He is also a folklorist and an activist in the Dievturi movement, serving as one of the Elders in a Dievturi congregation in Wisconsin. Dr. Tupesis has written many articles in the Latvian press to popularize the ancient Latvian religion, especially in its contemporary interpretation.
1 See, for example, Vaira Vikis-Freibergs' article in Journal of Baltic Studies, Vo. 17 (1986), pp. 104-105. Professor Freibergs is the author of many publications dealing with Latvian religion, folklore and mythology, and is a good, scholarly source of information on the ancient Latvian religion.
2 There are approximately 1,500,000 Latvians in the world today. In occupied Soviet Latvia the ruling nomenclature is forcibly proceeding with the incorporation of all Latvians into one culturally homogenous people (the soviet people!). But the lack of self-determination is not alone responsible for the less than zero population growth. This has been true ever since World War I and a few years back, Soviet Latvia had the world record for the smallest rate of natural population growth.
3 The six volumes of Latviju dainas appeared between 1894 and 1915, all but the first published by the Imperial Academy of Sciences in St. Petersburg. All classification, editing and commentaries was accomplished by Kriðjânis Barons — a grand total of 217,996 different text versions. Presently the Soviet Latvian Academy of Sciences has approximately 1,250,000 dainas in its Folklore Archives, the largest orally transmitted folksong collection in the world!
4 The main ideologue of the Dievturi movement as a unique Latvian religion was Brastiòu Ernests. He initially tabulated some 5000 dainas that in some form mentioned one of the Latvian divinities, but this was only the beginning. Many books and short articles (all in Latvian) followed. Cerokslis (Rîga, 11932), the initial compendium of Dievturiba in question-and-answer form, has gone through many editions.
5 "The Concept of Paradigm and Paradigm Shift" by Fritjof Capra in REVISION, Summer/Fall (1986), pp. 11-12. The criteria for the new paradigm thinking listed in this paper are taken from prof. Capra's article.
6 The individual authors of these songs are unknown. Most of them seem to have originated between the 13th and 16th centuries, although there are scholars who have claimed the dainas to be as old as the Latvian language itself (Arveds Ðvâbe, the main editor of the Latvian Encyclopedia/Latvju Enciklopçdija (Stockholm, 1950), was one of them). The first collection of religious folk songs, Dieva dziesmas (Songs of God), systematized and annotated by Brastiòu Ernests was published in 1928. This book was followed by Tikumu dziesmas (Songs of Virtue) and Gadskârtu dziesmas (Songs of Festive Seasons). Others were compiled, but their publication was stopped by the Soviet occupation of Latvia in 1940.
7 The Encyclopaedia Britannica definition of religion is found in the fifteenth edition (1986), Vol. IX, p. 1016. A good description of the Latvian religion is found in Vol. XIII, pp. 905-909. Although professor Haralds Biezais discusses Baltic religion, most of the references are to ancient Latvian deities, rituals and customs. There is a definite scarcity of English language publications dealing with the Latvian religion. Four other sources are: Contextualizing the Gospel to Followers of the Latvian Religion Dievturiba by Daina Elberts (part of a dissertation at a theological seminary; pro-Christian and critical of Dievturiba), Latvian Religion (New York, 1968) by Jânis Dârdedzis, Standard Dictionary of Folklore (1972, pp. 606-608) by Jonas Balys and The Balts (London, 1963) by Marija Gimbutas. There are, however, many publications in German and Latvian that deal with the ancient Baltic/Latvian religion. One good German source is Germanische und Baltische Religion (Stuttgart, 1975) by Ake V. Ström and Haralds Biezais.
8 The most comprehensive analysis of Dievs is the doctoral dissertation by Dr. Phil Karlis Polis, Dievs un dvesçle kâ religiozs priekðstats aizkristietisko latvieðu tradicijas (published in book form in 1962, Lincoln, Neb.).
9 I will attempt only a few translations of the dainas in this paper, mainly because without extensive ethnological and idiomatic annotations, (the translated texts are quite incomprehensible. The largest English-language translation) until a few years ago was Uriah Katzenelenbogen's The Daina: An Anthology of Lithuanian and Latvian Folk Songs (Chicago, 1935). In 1984 a 497 page selection from Barons' collection with line-by-line translations in Russian, German and English was published by the Soviet Latvian Writers' Union, titled Kriðjânis Barons, Latvju dainas. Parindenu izlase. This is the best collection of translations so far but, without proper ethnographic enculturation, is again at times incomprehensible. Some scholars and folklorists have claimed that, like some of the Vedas, many of the dainas are not translatable.
10 In modern times the religious matrix has changed for the Latvians still professing the ancient religion. Living in the technological and information age, the once agricultural and mainly rural Latvians have been forced to meet the challenges of the modern world. Along with their Christian brethren outside Soviet Latvia, most Dievturi have organized themselves into draudzes (congregations), thus facilitating the celebration of season feasts, sacred rituals and rites of passage — all integral parts in the life of a Dievturis.
11 The core concept of a female Supreme Being/Goddess has been with us for tens of thousands of years. To the pre-Aryan and pre-Semitic ancients, the Goddess was a full-fledged cosmic parent figure who created the universe and its laws, ruler of nature, time, fate, truth, wisdom, justice, birth and death. One of her names was Mâra. Many of the fathers of the Christian church strongly opposed the worship of Mary because she was only a composite of the many pre-Mary pagan goddesses. In fact, the Christian figure of Mary was gradually created during the first four centuries of the Christian era from Mâra and her many namesakes (Mariamne, Maya, Mari, Kel-Mari, Yamamari and numerous others). For good sources, see Barbara G. Walker's The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets (San Francisco, 1983) and Geoffrey Ashe's The Virgin (London, 1976).
12 When the Aryan peoples invaded and settled in the territory that is present Latvia some 4000 years ago, they already encountered a culture that was almost totally matriarchal. We might say that Father Dievs/sky formed a union with Mother Mâra/earth and, to this day, the Latvian religion and culture is embedded in this sacred duality. Marija Gimbutas in her The Gods and Goddesses of Old Europe (London, 1974) well describes this process.
13 Although Jâòi, the Latvian Midsummer night festival, is definitely of pre-Christian origin, many scholars believe that the name itself is derived from St. John. To counter the popular pagan appeal for the festival, the Christian church proclaimed June 24th as the birthdate of John the Baptist. However, there is some evidence that the name is of pre-Biblical, indo-European origin.
14 The Latvian cycle of eternal return is based on (i) the position of the Sun in the sky, (ii) life, agricultural and fertility cycles and (iii) the concomitant work in the fields and homestead. Jâòis Dârdedzis' Latvian Religion (pp. 40-43) gives a description of the feast days corresponding to these recurring cycles.
15 By a game here is meant any structured, social interactive set of rules to which a society (or portion of) agrees to abide. Among all the games man plays, the religious game is one of the noblest and most awe-inspiring.
16 In Latvian the word for 'world' is 'pasaule', meaning 'under the Sun'. Thus, the Latvian speaks of 'this Sun' and 'that Sun' to differentiate the empirical everyday reality from the one that might exist after the last rite of passage. Where once 'that Sun' was conceptualized as an inevitable reality, for the modern Dievturis it has become more of a change in energy forms within the matter/spirit interface — still an unknown state and having only metaphoric reality.
17 This tri-partition is not unique to the Latvians. The Egyptians, Greeks and other ancient cultures had similar nomenclature. In modern consciousness studies these would correspond to the physical, astral and mental energy levels.
18 Perceiving Ordinary Magic (Boulder, 1984) by Jeremy W. Hayward; Quantum Questions (Boulder, 1984), ed. by Ken Wilber; Physics for Poets '(Chicago, 1978) by Robert H. March; and the now classic. The Tao of Physics (Berkeley, 1975) by Fritjof Capra.
19 Two excellent scientific discourses on this topic are Ilya Prigozine's Order Out of Chaos (New York, 1984) and Erich Jantsch's The Self-Organizing Universe (Oxford, 1980).
Am I a "dievturis", do I follow in our beliefs?
Well as you could see or belief system is highlyflexible. It's more like a way of life not beliefs. You have your basic look to the life and our world and this look on the world is our belief system (not religion!) so YES, I'm one from them, but that in any way doesn't mean that I believe in any deities. Our deities are just representations, avatars of the nature and universe.
here mentioned deity Dievs is just one from the many more.
have a look->
Latvian Deities ``
but to be brief and not to look at all the spirits and subdeities here are the main ones
Latvian Deities
Saule The Sun Goddess
The Giver of Life. She brings Light and Warmth. With her benediction the crops ripen and all are fed.
In Latvian mythologies she is seen racing across the sky in her golden chariot pulled by two fiery steeds, or sailing the sky in her golden boat which sinks into the seas each evening. Saule is Life (daylight) Death (night) and Regeneration (dawn).
The sun is represented by circular motifs with or without rays, multi-petalled flowers, wheels, or circles with a single dot in the center.
Mçness- The Moon God
Brings Light to the Night Sky. He is the Protector of the Night.
Mçness rode the sky wearing starry robes in his silver chariot pulled by gray horses. His disappearance and renewal from New Moon to Full brought well being, light and health. Crops were planted according to his cycles to ensure abundance.
He is fickle in nature as seen by his constant changing for. Originally the consort of Saule, he fell in love with her daughter Austra, who rebuffed his advances, to have her as his own he married the Star Canopy Weaver, but when he look for her among the net of stars, all were there but Austra.
The Moon is represented by crescents, horns and half circles.
Zalktis – The Snake Goddess
The Sentinel of the Gods.
The green snake, Zalktis is a regenerative symbol bringing, life, happiness, fertility (to people and to crops) and prosperity. Saule love her best of all and to harm her was a great crime. If a snake is encountered it is an omen of marriage, birth or good fortune.
The Snake is represented by a stylized ‘S’. coils, spirals, ropes or waving lines and denotes rebirth.
Pçrkons The Thunder God
The Bringer of Fire.
Pçrkons was the enemy of evil spirits. Sacred oak groves were consecrated in his honour. He was seen with a copper beard and long robes, wielding and axe. His two-wheeled chariot was pulled across the sky by fierce horses.
Pçrkons is represented by oak leaves, acorns, double headed axes and the fire cross.
Laima – The Goddess of Destiny
Laima dispensed happiness and determined the length of life to all living creatures. She is beautiful with long flowing golden hair and lives beyond the sky. Laima presides over all births.
Laima is represented by chevrons (stylized or conjoined), feathers and grain images.
Dievs – The God of the Shining Sky
The Guardian of the Crops
Dievs was depicted as a handsome man in a robe of silver with matching cap, his clothes adorned with pendants, carrying a sword. He lives beyond the sky and controls human destiny in conjunction with Laima.
He is represented by swords, grain images and as a circle above an inverted chevron.
[The Latvians] worship all of creation... sun, moon, stars, thunder, birds, even four-legged creatures down to the toad. They have their sacred forests, fields and waters in which they do not dare to cut wood, nor work, nor fish.'' - Father Peter of Dunsberg, circa 1400
Latvian paganism, like all other paganism be it Nordic, Indian, or Mayan, springs from fear of the unknown. Because fear of the concrete is preferable to the ambiguous, the ancient Latvians personified phenomena of the cosmos and life into gods and goddesses, mates (mothers), and gari (spirits).
Though the hierarchy of these divinities is rigid in nature, a basic class system exists. At the top of this pyramid one finds one figure, Dievs. Dievs, though being the most powerful of deities in representation of the earth and heavens, does not rule per se. Other divinities, such as Perkons or Saule rule with equal authority, albeit lesser might. The ``power'' of ``might'' of the Pagan Dievs is more one of a patriarch and filial piety.
Dievs does not represent the different aspects of life and the universe. Specific aspects of life and the cosmos are dispersed through the pantheon of gods, goddesses, spirits, and sprites. Though Dievs authority is well-established, the deities of celestial phenomena - the moon, suns, and stars - have significant authority. At the base of the pyramid lie numerous deities encompassing all aspects of human life and environment.
Other factions exist throughout the hierarchy, coming in forms of cults and conglamerates of deities. One is called Dievadeli, meaning `Sons of God.' The similar root Diev- in Dievs and Dievadeli signifies the word `God.' This is only one of the many groups: others include the Sun Cult, Laimes' Cult, Perkons' Cult, etc. Jesuit and Christian missionaries alike in Latvia mistakenly identified these cults as dangerous and mysterious affairs, but they were benign.
However, though the Cults are rather simple in explanation, Dievadeli remain an ambiguous conglamerate for researcherst today. Since Dievs is the Father by definition, including the Cosmos and all parts of Earth, Dievadeli, who are the manifestations of the Earth's aspects and Cosmic phenomena, must be his Sons or subordinates. This is not true. The missionaries interpreted the System from trinity-centric perspective; Dievadeli are simply different facets of the whole. This is simply conjunctive syllogism, which only works in mathematical proofs. Since a unicorn has a horn and a rhinoceros has a horn, a unicorn is not necessarily a rhinoceros.
The gods, like all other pre-Christian gods, had to reside somewhere. Like the Greek (not Roman -- thanks Chandra
) Mt. Olympus, the Latvian gods resided eternally on the Sky Mountain, or Debeskalns. The Dainas and other old Latvian literature describe the complicated system of relationships and lifestyles of the different gods, but scantily. Only through careful corroboration may any sense exist in the marriages, fueds, and relationships between these deities. And I think that our deities are more like a time capsule, a time capsule of that ancient day way of thinking, way of living of the ancient latvians. How they saw this world. Maybe how we need to see it.
*this thread is composed of several different articles what I could find in english and my own thoughts
well i came back and read most the thread, and avatar and hippo are no doubt hard core. sheesh, how do you guys find the time to lay that much text down?
heres my few cents on it
i thought that was really good, funny stuff hippo.
but i strongly disagree with this
humans ARE animals my friend. We may have a higher plane of thought, but does that truly seperate us from them?
and your right, if you would not want to eat dinner at my house, not only do I not eat man's flesh, but I also do not partake in the consumption of fish flesh, or ANY animals. There is no difference, only protection of like kind. I might choose to not eat a man over a buffallo because I connect with the man, that would be my ONLY reason.
would you eat your dog? then why do you eat any animals that are FEELING THINKING BEINGS?!
sorry, i got off topic.
right and wrong are so transient by nature, that your argument for humans knowing the difference between the two falls very short hippo. we only assume to know a difference, and its endlesssly debatable. - flooding the earth and killing almost everything cannot possibly be argued as good, nor any of the other acts in the old testament.
heres my few cents on it
i thought that was really good, funny stuff hippo.
but i strongly disagree with this
theres been lots of stories on animals saving people. the recent zoo video where a kid falls in and a wild ape protects the kid from the 'baddy' apes... dolphin saving a drowing kid. the list goes on.
humans ARE animals my friend. We may have a higher plane of thought, but does that truly seperate us from them?
and your right, if you would not want to eat dinner at my house, not only do I not eat man's flesh, but I also do not partake in the consumption of fish flesh, or ANY animals. There is no difference, only protection of like kind. I might choose to not eat a man over a buffallo because I connect with the man, that would be my ONLY reason.
would you eat your dog? then why do you eat any animals that are FEELING THINKING BEINGS?!
sorry, i got off topic.
right and wrong are so transient by nature, that your argument for humans knowing the difference between the two falls very short hippo. we only assume to know a difference, and its endlesssly debatable. - flooding the earth and killing almost everything cannot possibly be argued as good, nor any of the other acts in the old testament.
hey zero what do you think of this thread?
if its so sick why do you keep visiting it and posting on it...curious.
if its so sick why do you keep visiting it and posting on it...curious.
Zero, could I have the pleasure (npi) of knowing why you think this thread is gross? I see it as an interesting philosophical debate on the sexual activities of Christ and God.