The Right to Self Defense

[Baron Max]

Realistically, self-defense is fundamental to ALL life. Human laws try to do it's best to mirror in our best interest but it ain't perfect just as humans are faulty, weak and need accountability to get along with others.

Hmm, isn't that interesting? No other animal on Earth needs complex laws and rules, complex judicial systems, and jails, in order to live in harmony with their fellows. And yet we humans are the ones who make claim to such high n' mighty ideals and superiority? ...LOL!!

Baron Max

 

[Oniw17]

Madanthony's right on the money. A man waiting for execution for a crime upon which he was convicted through due process channels can be stripped of the fundamental rights secured by constitution or common law. He can't vote. He can't sue for wrongful death. If he escapes and clubs some guy in the jaw, he can't claim self-defense and be excused for it. In other words, society/government/law will no longer protect or enable such rights. Nevertheless, man will do what he can or wants to protect his life. Thus, humanistically, self-defense remains fundamental to the person; society, however, will disregard it as no longer fundamental.

This makes me wonder....what's up with the laws against cruel and unusual punishment?

 

[peta9]

Hmm, isn't that interesting? No other animal on Earth needs complex laws and rules, complex judicial systems, and jails, in order to live in harmony with their fellows. And yet we humans are the ones who make claim to such high n' mighty ideals and superiority? ...LOL!!

Baron Max

that is why i mentioned "accountability". Human "societies" need laws, rules and the judicial system.

The laws are just more complex because society is.

 

[James R]

Baron Max:

Where did that "fundamental right" come from? Or is just saying it enough for you to accept it, to believe in it? Did God give it to us?

The basis of fundamental rights is complex. It is part biological and part arrived at through a process of moral reasoning.

If you're really interested, start by reading up on the Enlightenment.

To me, James, all you're doing is making that statement, yet that's all it is ....a statement without any substantiating, supporting evidence or facts.

You mean, you don't know the supporting facts and evidence.

So is this, then, only about manmade laws? I mean, how else can something be a "crime" unless someone has enacted a law making it a crime?

It can't. And I never said it could.

Try to keep up.

 

[madanthonywayne]

James,

It's running seven to one against you. I'm glad to see that, but my research has revealed that, disturbingly, you are not alone in your thinking.

Indeed, the UN is strongly on your side and defines the sale of guns for self defense in the US as a human rights violation!

many international advocates of
international gun prohibition are using the United Nations to deny and then eliminate the
right of self-defense. For example, the General Assembly is creating an “Arms Trade
Treaty” which would define arms sales to citizens in the United States as a human rights
violation

Their plans sound like the stuff of paranoid fantasies:

The 2006 gun control conference was the follow-up to the UN’s first major gun
control conference, held in 2001.18 The conferences were intended to produce a treaty, or
some other legally binding international instrument. One proposed provision was a ban
on the transfer of firearms to “non-state actors”, which meant anyone not approved by the
national government; examples would include the Kurds in Iraq under the Saddam
Hussein regime, rebel groups in Sudan, and the army and navy of Taiwan (which the UN
considers to be a province of China). Historically, the “non-state actor” ban would have
outlawed aid to anti-Nazi guerillas during World War II, anti-communist rebels during
the Cold War, and the American rebels during the War for Independence.19 Another
objective was complete registration of all firearms and all firearms owners, in national
and international databases.20

So, based upon their idea of there being no right to self defense, these UN bastards want to disarm everyone. As mentioned above, anti-Nazi guerillas, American Revolutionaries, all would be denied the ability to fight against oppression.

The UN states flatly that there is no right to self defense, and that there is no basis to claim there is.

As many on this site have stated, the right to self defense is obvious. It's an instinct. It's natural law and it has been regarded as a fundamental right by almost every society.

This article has a nice sumary of the history of the law and philosophy regarding the right to self defense: http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/The-Human-Right-of-Self-Defense.pdf

I must say that an organization that has pretentions to world government that seeks to disarm everyone is reason for concern.

 

[Baron Max]

The basis of fundamental rights is complex. It is part biological and part arrived at through a process of moral reasoning.

So, ...once again, it's the few trying to force their views onto all others, isn't that right? And to make themselves feel good, they call it "enlightenment"?

See, the problem is not everyone has had a chance to vote on this "enlightenment", have they? And if not, isn't it just one more group of humans trying to force their opinions onto others?

And now, worse, you're not only oppressing the people with your "enlightenment", but you're taking away their right to defend themselves from that oppression!

Baron Max

 

[Avatar]

Sometimes I've felt so tired that I didn't care what happened to me with no intention to defend myself.

As far as this discussion goes I agree that the right of self defence directly derives from the right to life.

But as with all universal principles the method of weighting and balancing applies, i.e., in a particular situation conflicting principles are evaluated against each other and the court decides which principle is the most important in that particular case.

p.s. Death penalty is illegal in Europe with some exceptions during time of war.

 

[Non-Logical-Idea-Guy]

what is defence? personally i find that the best defence is mental defence. no need for guns knives or fists, just the power of thought- because the mind is where reality is.

 

[Baron Max]

what is defence? personally i find that the best defence is mental defence. no need for guns knives or fists, just the power of thought- because the mind is where reality is.

...LOL!

I can see why you chose the name you did. ...LOL!

Baron Max

 

[shorty_37]

LMAO......baron

Can you explain how you would use "mental defence" when somebody attacks you
when you are out taking a walk at night?

no fists? kicking? just brain power?? lol

 

[Baron Max]

LMAO......baron

Can you explain how you would use "mental defence" when somebody attacks you
when you are out taking a walk at night?

no fists? kicking? just brain power?? lol

Well, you can't use me as an example, because in my other life, I'm ......

SUPER MENTAL MAN!

I wear a red cape and wear blue tights with a bright red thong. But see, you can't use me because of my super mental powers ...I can melt bullets in flight long before they get to me, and I turn the lead into sweetened Irish coffee so I can have a drink while I take the scumbags to jail.

Baron Max, SUPER MENTAL MAN

 

[shorty_37]

:roflmao:

 

[Baron Max]

:roflmao:

Hey, Shorty, don't you have housework, cleaning, laundry, cooking, ironing, vacuuming, and all such womanly chores to do? What the hell are you wasting time here when you could be doing all those womanly chores?

Baron Max

 

[shorty_37]

Hey, Shorty, don't you have housework, cleaning, laundry, cooking, ironing, vacuuming, and all such womanly chores to do? What the hell are you wasting time here when you could be doing all those womanly chores?

Baron Max

If you must know. I am finally resting lol I did all that and went grocery shopping too.
Now all there is left to do is.......get those kids off to bed and please my man!!! :shake: YOU know, then my work is DONE lmao

BTW I don't IRON if you get the clothes out of the dryer fast enough, there is no NEED

 

[James R]

madanthonywayne:

James,

It's running seven to one against you.

sciforums is largely populated by Americans, and the US has a huge mental blank spot when it comes to guns. Not everyone, but enough people.

Which gives me an idea...

Indeed, the UN is strongly on your side and defines the sale of guns for self defense in the US as a human rights violation!

The problem is that when a gun is sold there is no guarantee of any kind that it will be used only for "self defence". Are you really so blind you cannot see that?

Your views on the UN are well documented and don't really interest me in the context of this thread. I prefer to talk about self defence here, and not the pros and cons of the UN.


Baron Max:

So, ...once again, it's the few trying to force their views onto all others, isn't that right? And to make themselves feel good, they call it "enlightenment"?

There is no force involved. Think about it.

We're dealing with words in this thread. People put arguments. They try to persuade. They don't hold a gun to your head.

See, the problem is not everyone has had a chance to vote on this "enlightenment", have they?

Yes, they have. Over and over and over again.

You hold many Enlightenment values yourself. You just don't know it, since you don't seem to know what the Enlightenment was. Instead of just blowing off steam as usual, why not educate yourself?

 

[Baron Max]

The problem is that when a gun is sold there is no guarantee of any kind that it will be used only for "self defence". Are you really so blind you cannot see that?

But likewise, there's no guarantee that it will be used for crime or murder, either. And since you love statisitics (at least the ones that prove your point!), by far, the greater percentage of guns sold to private individuals is NOT used for crime.

There is no force involved. Think about it.
We're dealing with words in this thread. People put arguments. They try to persuade. They don't hold a gun to your head.

Force comes in many different forms, James, not just at the muzzle of a gun! And I'm so surprised that you didn't know that. Of course, that wouldn't have had the same impact in your post, would it? It wouldn't "force" people to think your way, would it?

Enlightenment? Sure I know what it is ...it's where a few whimpy, liberal doo-gooders try to tell others what to do and what to say by making claims that it's the "enlightened" thing to do! Again, the powerful few trying to force their own ideals onto the many. ("force" here is, for example, trying to embarrass the people into cowtowing to the ideals. See? Force comes in many different forms.)

Baron Max

 

[maxg]

But likewise, there's no guarantee that it will be used for crime or murder, either. And since you love statisitics (at least the ones that prove your point!), by far, the greater percentage of guns sold to private individuals is NOT used for crime.

But that doesn't mean they are likely to be used for self-defense either. A gun in a residence is more likely to be used to shoot someone who lives in that residence than it is to shoot an intruder.

 

[shorty_37]

A gun in a residence is more likely to be used to shoot someone who lives in that residence than it is to shoot an intruder.

Like a cheating partner.

 

[Baron Max]

But that doesn't mean they are likely to be used for self-defense either. A gun in a residence is more likely to be used to shoot someone who lives in that residence than it is to shoot an intruder.

So now you want the government to protect us from ourselves?

There are more accidents in the home in the bath tub than any other cause. So ...the government should take bath tubs away from us, too?

There are far more deaths caused by cars than guns, so should the government take cars away from us to protect us from ourselves?

Statistics are fun to play with, aren't they? They can be used to prove almost anything one wants.

Baron Max

 

[shorty_37]

There are more accidents in the home


Baron Max

Thats why our moms always taught us not to run with scissors.