The Right to Self Defense

[Pandaemoni]

No problem. In the US, the fundamental (or absolute) right to self defense is limited to the amount of force necessary to prevent injury to life or limb. Generally speaking, you can't shoot a man who comes at you with a stick. You could mace him, then flee.

But should he come at you using deadly force (like a knife, gun, ax, etc.), you too may use deadly force. Some states differ a bit on a couple of nuances, but it is generally the same.

Though the often attacked "duty to retreat" says that if you have a means of escaping the threat without danger to yourself or others, you should take it in preference to the use of force. Some states have abolished that in certain cases so that you are permitted to use deadly force, even when you could have just as easily (or more easily) have left the scene unscathed.

My (non-expert, but I think informed) understanding is that, let's say you live in Florida. You drive home one night and, from your car, see an unarmed man breaking into your home, but he does not see you. You are permitted to enter the home...and if the intruder then attacks you, to shoot him dead, since burglary is a "forceable felony" and since you have a right to be in be home (and there is no duty to retreat). That he was a threat to you is irrebuttably presumed (even though he was unarmed) and the fact that you could have easily drove away and called the cops is irrelevant.

Personally I don't see that as "self-defense" really, it's more "defense of property" that we pretend is self-defense. I'd have more respect for the "Stand Your Ground" laws if they dropped the pretense and simply said, hey, property is important too, and we will kill you if you try to steal it.

My understanding is that the "duty to retreat" still existsin most U.S. States, though losing ground.

 

[snake river rufus]

Isn't article 3 on jamesr first post a pretty good definition of "self defence"?

 

[Tiassa]

I'd have more respect for the "Stand Your Ground" laws if they dropped the pretense and simply said, hey, property is important too, and we will kill you if you try to steal it.

Oh, come on. We do not get to shoot one another over lawn gnomes and daffodils. And we all know there's at least one person out there that would.

 

[Pandaemoni]

Oh, come on. We do not get to shoot one another over lawn gnomes and daffodils. And we all know there's at least one person out there that would.

I think the real point of the stand your ground laws is about the right to defend your property, not the right to defend your life. If you and your family have a safe means of exit, readily accessible, when the burglar comes, then no one is really in danger. In that circumstance, it's only when you stand your ground that the danger arises, and in that case, the main reason to stand your ground is to protect your stuff (which the invader presumably is going to steal or damage).

 

[Baron Max]

Oh, come on. We do not get to shoot one another over lawn gnomes and daffodils. And we all know there's at least one person out there that would.

I believe there was an incident in Florida, under the new law, where a man did shoot and kill a thief trying to steal something from his car. He was acquitted of any wrongdoing as he was protecting his property.

I wish I had a link for you, but I don't. I read it in the Dallas Morning News a couple of years ago.

Crime rates are down in Florida since they passed that new law. And with Florida as a good example, many, many states are now enacting exactly the same laws. Perhaps we should all take note and realize that criminals love nothing better than the liberal doo-gooder stance on crime.

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

I believe there was an incident in Florida, under the new law, where a man did shoot and kill a thief trying to steal something from his car. He was acquitted of any wrongdoing as he was protecting his property.

I wish I had a link for you, but I don't. I read it in the Dallas Morning News a couple of years ago.

Crime rates are down in Florida since they passed that new law. And with Florida as a good example, many, many states are now enacting exactly the same laws. Perhaps we should all take note and realize that criminals love nothing better than the liberal doo-gooder stance on crime.

Baron Max

Larceny is down, but murder is up

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/flcrime.htm

 

[Baron Max]

Larceny is down, but murder is up

That little chart is horribly misleading, Sam. It gives numbers, not rates.

Now I know this will come as a shock, but there are more people now than there was in 1985 (or whenever the law was passed). Check out the rates, Sam, as a scientist (so you say?!), you should know that.

Oops, but then as a paid propagandist, it's your job to find convoluted ways of presenting things that portray your hated enemies as bad, huh?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

That little chart is horribly misleading, Sam. It gives numbers, not rates.

Now I know this will come as a shock, but there are more people now than there was in 1985 (or whenever the law was passed). Check out the rates, Sam, as a scientist (so you say?!), you should know that.

Oops, but then as a paid propagandist, it's your job to find convoluted ways of presenting things that portray your hated enemies as bad, huh?

Baron Max

Ah, so you have the rates then?

PS. good catch

FLORIDA HOMICIDE RATE JUMPS 27% IN FIRST HALF
Crime Control Digest, Nov 3, 2006

Florida's murder rate jumped 27 percent in the first half of 2006 with homicides in some counties running at record-high levels.

Robberies increased 11 percent while aggravated assault and burglary also increased. The spike in violent crime reversed a decade of declining crime rates that culminated in historic lows in 2004 and 2005.

Homicide jumped 81 percent in Palm Beach County, 71 percent in Orange, 58 percent in Duval and 42 percent in Miami-Dade.

Violent crime overall increased 3.2 percent compared to a decline of less than 1 percent for all other types of offenses, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4440/is_200611/ai_n17194023

 

[Baron Max]

Ah, so you have the rates then?

PS. good catch

No, but only a few months ago I read a long article about the new law in Texas, and they mentioned the crime rate reductions in Florida, esp. the handgun deaths and violent crime with handguns. I don't remember the numbers, but they were certainly enough to stand up and take notice.

From your posted article: "Robberies increased 11 percent while aggravated assault and burglary also increased. The spike in violent crime reversed a decade of declining crime rates that culminated in historic lows in 2004 and 2005."

Notice that it's reversing a historic lows earlier. So, an 11% rise as compared to 2004, still means that the rate of violent crime is less than it was before the law was enacted in, I think, 1985. See? It depends on what you compare it to, or how you present the numbers or the stats ......one can "prove" anything they want, can't they?

Baron Max

 

[siledre]

I will say we have the right to defend ourselves outside the scope of our humanity, the fact that we are humans has no bearing on defending ourselves from harm.

 

[Learned Hand]

Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it. While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it.

-- The Billings Learned Hand, federal jurist, 1872-1961.

 

[Baron Max]

Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women;...

Hmm, that's probably true ....because if there's one thing that humans can do and do well, it's lie to themselves and to others!

Baron Max