The Real Story of Jesus Christ

Pete, hon,
Not everybody thinks killing is wrong. I certainly don't. If you don't believe in absolute morals, you don't believe killing is wrong.

By my PERSONAL morals it is wrong, however I have heard of many a real society that didn't believe it was wrong. IE human sacrifices, cannibalism, all of which people thought was a-ok. Many Christians even thought (some still do think but not nearly as many) that it's alright to kill in the name of religion, as long as you're killing people who don't believe (killing Pagans is better than killing Atheists, killing Atheists is better than killing Monotheists with different beliefs)

It is not human nature to believe that killing is wrong. Given the two following scenarios:
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100 babies packed into a ship are shipwrecked on an island. There is barely enough food to keep half of them alive, only half. There are 2 apes there that will raise them, a male and a female adult that are hardly ever present. After 5 years, 5~20 of the youngsters may be dead not from hunger but from HOMICIDE by others who realized that if these people aren't alive, they don't need food, and therefore there is more food for those that are alive. At 10 years, 40% of the original human population has been MURDERED. Everybody, however, is still skin-and-bones and barely surviving. At 15 years, 60~75% of the original population has been MURDERED. At this point, the food supply decreases so that it is enough to supply only 10% of the original population, as a minimum. Before age 20, 95% of the original population has been murdered, leaving 2 MALES and the females they have kept alive for MATES. (3 women to 2 men is better than the other way, as it will produce more children) These people eat a normal amount of food so that they can maintain a normal weight and maintain it forever. Before the women give birth, the food decreases more, but instead of killing each other, the men and women kill half of the babies (INFANTOCIDE) out of nessecity. This repeats for generations upon generations and is a way of keeping population in control.

Oh, did I mention that all those killed were eaten by everybody else? A large feast to put some meat on those bones...

Blood can be used to quench thirst, it is a good source of water. Of course after a few deaths from sickness it is realized that blood should be boiled over a fire before being drunken. It is drinken with flesh at feasts.

Bones are ground into powder in the day by the women on stones, collected in stone nearly-flat bowls, and mixed with some of the blood so that nothing goes to waste. Eyes, hearts, brain, lungs, etc are eaten with the rest of the body.

XEV: my hotmail account has alerted me that you have just replied, I'd appreciate it if you could touch on this post too :)

PS
it was believed by some medieval Carribean societies that if one ate the flesh of another, he acquired the knowledge and capabilities of the person he ate.
 
GB:
Blood can be used to quench thirst, it is a good source of water. Of course after a few deaths from sickness it is realized that blood should be boiled over a fire before being drunken. It is drinken with flesh at feasts.

Bones are ground into powder in the day by the women on stones, collected in stone nearly-flat bowls, and mixed with some of the blood so that nothing goes to waste. Eyes, hearts, brain, lungs, etc are eaten with the rest of the body.

Thanks a whole lot for ruining my diet by making me hungry! :p

That's a good example, though. Killing is not always wrong, even by the most objective standards of morality that people have tried to create (Objectivism, Utilitarianism, etc).

It is most logical to say that morality is subjective. I have a feeling that Pete will respond with something like "Yeah well, Xev, how would you like it if you were murdered!"

The answer is that it doesn't matter what I want. All that really matters here is whether I have the power to protect myself and others weaker than myself from those, truely weak people, who threaten us.

This isn't nice or pretty - but it does not matter what is nice and pretty. All that matters is what is.
 
Avatar
"it is to our nature to explain natural phenomena"
explain big bang without String/multiple Universes theory

Xev
"Well, Harry Potter is explicitly fiction. Perhaps the disclaimer page to the Bible got lost over the years"
no historian laughs at their documents [whether they contain reliable information or not]

Xev
"There is no evidence that God exists or that Jesus rose from the dead"
i am very sorry but that is not the case (referring to Jesus ressurection not existance of God). but just because there is evidence doesn't mean it happened

Xev
"God is the ultimate paternal symbol"
this may be true but stick to the topic

Xev
"Morality is subjective"
then why don't we murder everyone who threatens our line's existance?

Teg
"You base all of this on a single written text"
I am sorry the new testament is not a single written text

Teg
"Actually it doesn't circle but rather orbit in an elliptical pattern"
i question your motive for bringing this up

GB-GIL Trans-global
"Many Christians even thought... that it's alright to kill in the name of religion"
Matthew recounts Jesus saying this: 5:21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[1] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment ... anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell"
a christian is a follower of 'Christ'. were they christians?

"killing is wrong"
this is not mentioned in any of the 66 books contained in the bible [murder is]

"When you have multiple accounts of a story 100 years after the fact there are bound to be some discrephencies"
the question was not discrephencies, the question was "what fundemental contradictions are you talking about which relate remotly to their motivation for writing their stories down?"
[NB i am not sure where u get 70->100 years later... the first letters written about Jesus occur 15 years after his death (by a dude called Paul who had been stoning christians for the last 15 years)]

we should not put down each otherbut rather comment other each other's opinions if they are relevant to the story of 'Jesus'

peace uall
 
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Dude:
no historian laughs at their documents [whether they contain reliable information or not]

I never claimed to be a historian, did I?

I'm 18. I have no qualifications in anything, little formal education and no future.

I'm an enthusiast, not a historian.

i am very sorry but that is not the case (referring to Jesus ressurection not existance of God). but just because there is evidence doesn't mean it happened

Actually, it is the case. There is no reliable evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. There are some nice fairy tales that no sober historian would credit as "evidence", but that's about it.

this may be true but stick to the topic

Mind your place and don't try to give orders to your superiors, newb.

then why don't we murder everyone who threatens our line's existance?

Honey, the only "lines" here are whatever you have been snorting.

In any case, why don't we murder anyone we please? For the higher man, because he does not feel like it. For the small man, because he'd go to jail.

i question your motive for bringing this up

I was questioning your intelligence, but halfway through your post I realized it did not exist for me to question.

5:21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[1] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment ... anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell"
a christian is a follower of 'Christ'. were they christians?

"There was only one true Christian, and he died on the Cross"

A Christian is somebody who has accepted Jesus as the Christ, the Redeemer, and claims to follow Him.

this is not mentioned in any of the 66 books contained in the bible [murder is]

Nice job quoting GB-Gil out of context. :rolleyes:

Idiot.
 
rephrasing Xev

I never claimed to be a astrophysicist, did I?

I'm 18. I have no qualifications in anything, little formal education.

I'm an enthusiast, not a physicist.
 
dude182 wrote:

Xev
"There is no evidence that God exists or that Jesus rose from the dead"

i am very sorry but that is not the case (referring to Jesus ressurection not existance of God).
And I am very sorry but, in fact, there is no evidence of a resurrection, simply stories with zero probative value. The textual 'evidence' would be laughed out of court.
 
Xev
"Mind your place and don't try to give orders to your superiors, newb." i found this page using google. and i thought this was a discussion where there were no superiors. in regards to
"God is the ultimate paternal symbol". i thought threads were topic based, and since this topic is rather broad already it would be more helpful if we stuck to it rather than brininging in our opinions on other broad issues such as the character of God. i am sorry if i was out of place.

"There was only one true Christian, and he died on the Cross"
Jesus was not a christian. [he happened to be a jew but that is irrelevant]. i am not sure what you mean by 'True'? a christian is a follower of Christ.
[follow implies an attitude. we are not perfect and we cannot follow anybody's instructions perfectly regardless of who they are. but we can still have an attitude to want to follow them. did they? God knows. i asked the question not so that we can judge them but we can examine the situation without necessarily calling every shiad terrrorist a muslim].

"I was questioning your intelligence, but halfway through your post I realized it did not exist for me to question"
your motive for saying this happens to be the exact same motive i was questioning.

"Idiot"
out of context yes. but it is an important point non the less since the only reference to "do not kill" i have found is from a single donomination's hand book. where did you guys see it published?

Avatar i am 19 and am not a historian or astrophysitits either. but i think it is profitable we respect everyones profession. i think if an issue such as the 'real jesus' is still being discussed by historians we should respect them for it. i like your enthusiasm keep at it champ.

ReasonableDoubt,
"The textual 'evidence' would be laughed out of court". can i give you some 'evidence' and can you tell me if this is an example of the laughable textual evidence you are talking about? thanks

A quote from a letter written by a jewish dude called Paul to some people in Corinth [Greece]. Written ~ 55 AD [Jesus died ~ 30 AD]
"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep"

peace uall
 
dude182 wrote:

ReasonableDoubt,

... can i give you some 'evidence' and can you tell me if this is an example of the laughable textual evidence you are talking about? thanks

A quote from a letter written by a jewish dude called Paul to some people in Corinth [Greece]. Written ~ 55 AD [Jesus died ~ 30 AD] ...


[then quotes 1 Corinthians 15:3-6 - RD]

Yes, absolutely laughable. See, for example, Arguments for the Legal Evidence for Christianity.

By the way, since this was pre-Matthias, "the twelve" presumable includes Judas after the suicide. Also ...

1 Corinthians 15:5
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

Mark 16:14
Afterward he appeared unto the eleven ...
 
yeah they all say he was seen by some dudes, and then some more dudes. it doesnt imply he wasnt seen by any dudes.

assuming a resurrection, the resurrected didnt choose to reveal himself to any authority. why? i have only a subjective theological reason involving equal revelation to all authorities; God not forcing truth on us but letting us take it if we want it.

assuming a resurection, it is never claimed anyone followed the ressurected around places [for the subjective reason above?], which would have made it impossible to work out who was the first actual male to see him.. . [they dont have watches then].

i am gona have a read of that article over the weekend. thanks mate.
 
dude182 wrote:

yeah they all say he was seen by some dudes, and then some more dudes. it doesnt imply he wasnt seen by any dudes. [emphasis added - RD]
Sorry, 'dude', but that's simply inaccurate. First of all, Paul was not a witness to anything beyond his own confused visions.

So, what about the rest of this "all" you talk about. Well, as one scholar noted:
Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Syriacus, Codex Vaticanus and Codex Bobiensis do not contain the last twelve verses of the Gospel of Mark

This is a notable omission: it is these verses only which contain the description of Jesus' resurrection appearance. Since Mark's account seems to be not only the earliest but also that on which Matthew and Luke based their accounts, a question arises: What is the basis for the accounts of Jesus' bodily resurrection according to Matthew, Luke and John?

- James H. Charlesworth (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature, Princeton Theological Seminary)
Note that the codices referred to by Dr. Charlesworth are the earliest know gospels.

There is no "all", only the accretion of myth with the resulting text (poorly) ammended, revised, and otherwise harmonized in an effort to create a coherent story. Once again, 'dude', the evidence is laughable - "all" of it.

dude182 wrote:

Avatar i am 19 and am not a historian or astrophysitits either.
The Rutgers University Synoptic Gospels Primer states just below its index:
  • "Faith is no excuse for ignorance! Adherence to any tradition in disregard for textual evidence is sheer superstition."
That you are young and "not a historian" is obvious. It is not, however, a failure unless and until you choose to use those facts to excuse a commitment to ignorance broadcast in childish prose. But that's simply my opinion, 'dude'. ;)
 
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dude:
"God is the ultimate paternal symbol". i thought threads were topic based, and since this topic is rather broad already it would be more helpful if we stuck to it rather than brininging in our opinions on other broad issues such as the character of God. i am sorry if i was out of place.

It would be even more helpful if you were to mind your manners from now on.

Apology accepted.

"There was only one true Christian, and he died on the Cross"
Jesus was not a christian. [he happened to be a jew but that is irrelevant]. i am not sure what you mean by 'True'? a christian is a follower of Christ.

Ask Nietzsche. The comment, like most of his aphorisms, was not meant to be taken literally.

[follow implies an attitude. we are not perfect and we cannot follow anybody's instructions perfectly regardless of who they are. but we can still have an attitude to want to follow them. did they? God knows. i asked the question not so that we can judge them but we can examine the situation without necessarily calling every shiad terrrorist a muslim].

Shiad? Do you mean Shi'ite? And what the hell do terrorists (Shiia is a Muslim sect, thus a Shi'ite is by definition a Muslim :rolleyes: ) have to do with this?

out of context yes. but it is an important point non the less since the only reference to "do not kill" i have found is from a single donomination's hand book. where did you guys see it published?

Are you just stupid or are you trolling?

In either case, lay off the straw men.

A quote from a letter written by a jewish dude called Paul to some people in Corinth [Greece]. Written ~ 55 AD [Jesus died ~ 30 AD]
"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep"

Fifty year old hearsay evidence of something that is ridiculously improbable?

C'mon hon, that would be laughed out of any court.
 
Xev
{
"Fifty year old hearsay evidence of something that is ridiculously improbable?"
fifteen. but yeah ridiculously improbable

"It would be even more helpful if you were to mind your manners from now on"
i repented

"shiad" as in the word [however it is pronounced and spelled] which means declaring a holy war in the name of Allah.
just because you declare one of these doesnt necessarily mean your a muslim. same goes with christians. just because you
go around killing people in the name of 'Christ' doesnt necessarily mean your a christian.

"Are you just stupid or are you trolling?"
ah... yeah... so where did you see it published man?
}

RD
{
"a question arises: What is the basis for the accounts of Jesus' bodily resurrection according to Matthew, Luke and John?"
because they were eye witness accounts? i assume they inclueded it cause they saw it happen. [referring to matthew luke john].
yeah some of them used the source ['Q'?] but im not sure how that is relevant [you are still responsible for what you write].
this is neutral question but it would help me, were they not written by matthew, mark luke and john?

"That you are young and "not a historian" is obvious. It is not, however, a failure unless and until you choose to use those facts to excuse a commitment to ignorance broadcast in childish prose. But that's simply my opinion, 'dude'."
thanks mate ill take that into account. reading this now >> http://home.teleport.com/~packham/montgmry.htm
}
 
dude182 wrote:

this is neutral question but it would help me, were they not written by matthew, mark luke and john?
See:
Paul and the writers of all four canonical Gospels described the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, as they understood it had happened. There is a near consensus among Christian theologians who are not Evangelical Christians that:
  • The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were not written by Jesus' disciples but by person or persons whose names are unknown.
  • Neither Paul nor any of the Gospel writers had been an eyewitness to Jesus' ministry or death.
  • The Gospels record the beliefs and memories of various Christian groups as they had evolved at the time they were written.
-- see Beliefs of Christian Groups in the 1st and 2nd Centuries CE
In my opinion, the best readily available source for resolving such questions is Kirby's Early Christian Writings
The text I own (based on numerous recommendations) is Udo Schnelle's, The History and Theology of the New Testament Writings.
 
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