You said you base your opinions solely on your experiences, rather shallow.
The Power of Public opinion
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
Of course, I know some Muslims.
Why did Muhammed and his bunch ride around North Africa and the Middle East killing people who did not submit to Islam, and why is the same happening today in much of Africa and Asia?
Sorry you are way off-topic. this thread is about law and public opinion.
True however.
SamCDKey:
Juries are almost impossible to bribe, specifically as it requires absolute consensus of the juries to get a guilty verdict in most cases. Moreover, they are generally not big wigs, nor easy to contact outside of court, whereas judges are.
But anyway, I imagine there will be an appeal by this guy. You do allow appeals in India, yes?
Juries are almost impossible to bribe, specifically as it requires absolute consensus of the juries to get a guilty verdict in most cases. Moreover, they are generally not big wigs, nor easy to contact outside of court, whereas judges are.
But anyway, I imagine there will be an appeal by this guy. You do allow appeals in India, yes?
Its rare for the Supreme Court to overturn a verdict by the High Court, especially without fresh evidence. He can appeal and it will be addressed but is unlikely to be entertained without exculpatory evidence.
Its not bribery that you may have to worry about, its vulnerability to media and popular appeal, in the absence of exonerating evidence.
The courts get more stringent about the law, the higher you go.
It's good that you accept the history of Muhammed's conversion tactics, and what's happening in that regard in Africa and Asia today, samkey, you're making progress.
So, sam, this is what I am reading - please tell me if I am off.
1.) You prefer a system in which you can bribe the cops, because then you can get something done, as opposed to being bogged down in bureaucracy. Which, of course, completely contradicts your earlier statement that the system in India is not rife with corruption – it IS, in fact, corrupt, but you like it that way, because you have the money to pay people off and get things done. The corruption benefits YOU, so it is forgivable.
The corrupt DO generally prefer a corrupt system.
Of course you conveniently ignore the fact that the whole reason that son of a politician was able to become so dirty and gather so much power was because he was taking advantage of that same corrupt system as well.
So, what is it you are looking for? It seems to me that you want a system that you (and other “good” people) can manipulate, buy and garner favors from – but “bad” people can’t.
2.) You are basing your notion of what all the cops are like and what the justice system is like in the US (a vast country of 300 million people and fifty different state government systems) on interactions with police officers on two occasions in which you felt you didn’t receive satisfactory results. It wasn’t even that you were treated unjustly or there was corruption getting in the way of justice. So your friend got a ticket for parking illegally. Your friend DID park illegally. The cop did his job, actually. He is not supposed to decide if your actions that are breaking the law were justifiable or not, that is the job of a judge. Cops enforce the laws – judges interpret the law. Arguing with the cops is not only pointless, but it is unfair badgering of someone who is doing his/her best to do the already difficult job they have. People that argue with them and expect them to listen to all their justifications and why it is that the law shouldn’t apply to them are a big pain in the ass, to say the least, and a detriment to justice. Your friend should have simply taken the ticket, and went to court to explain what happened. I personally would have paid the ticket, because I knew what I did was illegal, and I would be willing to swallow that cost for the benefit of my friend, rather than be so self absorbed as to argue with the police and raise the tension of an already difficult situation for my friend.
And the dorm room thing – no the cops apparently did not find the boy. That means this is a horrible system? Why would your friend go to the cops several times making suggestions? Who the hell is she to tell the cops how to do their jobs? Is this the same friend? You both remind me of a girl I know in India. She comes from a fairly well to do and well connected family. She told me that if I want to come to India, I can stay at some prince’s house because they are close and there is always room in the palace. Her family is in government. She has an attitude that she is entitled to be treated like the special person she is, and anything less is simply uncalled for and unfair to her.
The impression I am getting is that you come from a fairly well off family and you have become accustomed to getting what you want and people bending over to please you. When you don’t get treated like you expect, you demand justice. It is people that have such attitudes, in my experience, that seem to do the complaining when they are actually treated justly and fairly. The reality is that they don’t want to be treated fairly – they want to be treated special.
It makes me think of an old expression, “The only time teenagers complain that they want to be treated like adults is when they are being treated like adults.”
You felt unsafe asking someone directions in the Midwest, but felt safe asking directions in Bombay. AND? That is supposed to reflect somehow on America?
No. It reflects only on YOU and your own prejudice – witnessed by the fact that you don’t trust any American cops because two of them rubbed you the wrong way.
As was pointed out, mob mentality is not a positive thing. Even though it can have some positive results – it can (and more often does) have negative results.
Finally – the point about your experiences determining your opinions. Of course everyone’s experiences determine their opinions, but the universe is a hell of a lot bigger, more complex and more diverse than your little world. To say that all American cops are corrupt because you met two that didn’t please you (and didn’t even give you any reason to believe they were corrupt) is basing your opinion on your own personal experience, but it is not fair, nor is it accurate. If I was robbed by the only Italian I have ever met, and I determined from that that all Italians are dirty thieves, what would you say about that? I imagine you would rightfully recognize that although my own personal experience is valid, it hardly represents the truth of an entire people.
Let’s say that the truth is that 93% of Indian judges are corrupt – just for the sake of argument. Now, you’ve been to court three times, and all three times just happened to get one of the 7% of honest judges. Based on your personal experience, judges in India are not corrupt, correct? However, that is most certainly NOT an accurate reflection of reality, is it?
Do you see why personal experience can only go so far and people should base their opinions on both their personal experience AND seek out unbiased, external sources of information AND take other people’s experiences into account?
Do you see why it is not such a wise idea being self-absorbed?
1.) You prefer a system in which you can bribe the cops, because then you can get something done, as opposed to being bogged down in bureaucracy. Which, of course, completely contradicts your earlier statement that the system in India is not rife with corruption – it IS, in fact, corrupt, but you like it that way, because you have the money to pay people off and get things done. The corruption benefits YOU, so it is forgivable.
The corrupt DO generally prefer a corrupt system.
Of course you conveniently ignore the fact that the whole reason that son of a politician was able to become so dirty and gather so much power was because he was taking advantage of that same corrupt system as well.
So, what is it you are looking for? It seems to me that you want a system that you (and other “good” people) can manipulate, buy and garner favors from – but “bad” people can’t.
2.) You are basing your notion of what all the cops are like and what the justice system is like in the US (a vast country of 300 million people and fifty different state government systems) on interactions with police officers on two occasions in which you felt you didn’t receive satisfactory results. It wasn’t even that you were treated unjustly or there was corruption getting in the way of justice. So your friend got a ticket for parking illegally. Your friend DID park illegally. The cop did his job, actually. He is not supposed to decide if your actions that are breaking the law were justifiable or not, that is the job of a judge. Cops enforce the laws – judges interpret the law. Arguing with the cops is not only pointless, but it is unfair badgering of someone who is doing his/her best to do the already difficult job they have. People that argue with them and expect them to listen to all their justifications and why it is that the law shouldn’t apply to them are a big pain in the ass, to say the least, and a detriment to justice. Your friend should have simply taken the ticket, and went to court to explain what happened. I personally would have paid the ticket, because I knew what I did was illegal, and I would be willing to swallow that cost for the benefit of my friend, rather than be so self absorbed as to argue with the police and raise the tension of an already difficult situation for my friend.
And the dorm room thing – no the cops apparently did not find the boy. That means this is a horrible system? Why would your friend go to the cops several times making suggestions? Who the hell is she to tell the cops how to do their jobs? Is this the same friend? You both remind me of a girl I know in India. She comes from a fairly well to do and well connected family. She told me that if I want to come to India, I can stay at some prince’s house because they are close and there is always room in the palace. Her family is in government. She has an attitude that she is entitled to be treated like the special person she is, and anything less is simply uncalled for and unfair to her.
The impression I am getting is that you come from a fairly well off family and you have become accustomed to getting what you want and people bending over to please you. When you don’t get treated like you expect, you demand justice. It is people that have such attitudes, in my experience, that seem to do the complaining when they are actually treated justly and fairly. The reality is that they don’t want to be treated fairly – they want to be treated special.
It makes me think of an old expression, “The only time teenagers complain that they want to be treated like adults is when they are being treated like adults.”
You felt unsafe asking someone directions in the Midwest, but felt safe asking directions in Bombay. AND? That is supposed to reflect somehow on America?
No. It reflects only on YOU and your own prejudice – witnessed by the fact that you don’t trust any American cops because two of them rubbed you the wrong way.
As was pointed out, mob mentality is not a positive thing. Even though it can have some positive results – it can (and more often does) have negative results.
Finally – the point about your experiences determining your opinions. Of course everyone’s experiences determine their opinions, but the universe is a hell of a lot bigger, more complex and more diverse than your little world. To say that all American cops are corrupt because you met two that didn’t please you (and didn’t even give you any reason to believe they were corrupt) is basing your opinion on your own personal experience, but it is not fair, nor is it accurate. If I was robbed by the only Italian I have ever met, and I determined from that that all Italians are dirty thieves, what would you say about that? I imagine you would rightfully recognize that although my own personal experience is valid, it hardly represents the truth of an entire people.
Let’s say that the truth is that 93% of Indian judges are corrupt – just for the sake of argument. Now, you’ve been to court three times, and all three times just happened to get one of the 7% of honest judges. Based on your personal experience, judges in India are not corrupt, correct? However, that is most certainly NOT an accurate reflection of reality, is it?
Do you see why personal experience can only go so far and people should base their opinions on both their personal experience AND seek out unbiased, external sources of information AND take other people’s experiences into account?
Do you see why it is not such a wise idea being self-absorbed?
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SamCDKey:
You can quarantine juries for the most part, can't one?
He can also point out the fact that he was shown to be innocent once and that it was a matter of -public opinion- not the case that changed things.
You can quarantine juries for the most part, can't one?
He can also point out the fact that he was shown to be innocent once and that it was a matter of -public opinion- not the case that changed things.
Is that what I said?
If you will read my posts you will realise that I did not try to bribe any of the cops, not in the US nor in India. I have never needed to, what I said was that the situation was so bad, I actually longed for a cop who would only do his job. And if he wanted an extra incentive I was willing to give that too, but the ones I met were not willing to do their jobs.
You're reading more into the situation than I said.
I said I understood why the system existed, not that I condoned it.
Actually I was the one arguing with the cop because I know my friend has financial difficulties (and so did I at that particular time) and could not afford the ticket. Moreover, it was not the ticket that I am emphasising here, but the attitude of the cop. Afterwards my advisor told me that a letter from her to the cops could have resolved the issue, so it was not like the cop could not resolve the issue amicably, under the circumstances, he just did not want to. Protect and serve? Thats a laugh.
Barring personal experiences, since I am on a mixed campus, I have heard of lots of instances of foreign students (especially those not so proficient in English) who have been in situations where they were poorly treated by the law. Perhaps we all suffer from self absorption and delusion.
Incredible. So if I dislike having boys expose themselves to me, I should take care of it myself? Rather than take the trouble to call the cops (for what?) and go through the humiliation of having them make off color remarks.
And the Indian girls comment was probably intended to give you a memorable time in India. It is the Westerners who are fascinated with princes and kings. Perhaps it was her experience with Westerners which led her to make that offer? And yes, I have friends and acquaintances who are close too. And it is considered a privilege to help a family member or a friend, not a "special treatment". The notion that one cannot presume on one family and friends is a Western one.
Do I?
So anyone who expects justice must be asking for special privileges?
Perhaps its because I complain that I get the justice? But I forget, complaining to a cop is likely to get me tasered here, isn't it?
Freedom of expression, anyone?
Really? So if I expect that the law should be able to find one boy in a dorm with maybe a few thousand people, I am having excessive expectations? Its too difficult a job? If I expect some consideration from a public officer, I am stepping above my station? Tell me, do you think the cop who interviewed my friend because "he was doing his job" would have treated his family or friend the same under similar circumstances?
If it came off that way, that was unintended. I have traveled all over the East Coast and in the beginning I struck up conversations with people as I am wont to do wherever I go, India, the ME, etc.
And yes, I am used to having people talk back to me in a friendly way, and they have, in several locations. But after almost being run down in a couple of places, having people throw shoes at me (this was when I was getting off a train and I had not even noticed the teenagers until they did this) and getting a lot of uncooperative behaviour for no reason (and I am generally considered a person who gets along with everyone) on several different occasions, would I step out of a bus stand (where no one is present) to ask a random person for directions in a strange place?
Prejudice? Thats a laugh. That is exactly what I encountered.
Mob mentality? The media making a to-do about a politicians son getting away with murder is mob mentality?
So what is your opinion of elections?
Sure, but if you visit Italy and get beaten up in one place, have your luggage stolen in another, get molested in a third and hear racial invectives in a fourth, I would consider it extraordinary if you came back with a positive impression of the people. Like I said I was there for almost 3 years, it was the sum of my experiences not isolated occurrences.
Perhaps. Which is why I said that on the whole the lower judiciary is prone to corruption. But I have gone through a civil case almost 20 years in my family and met a wide variety of judges. I have also accompanied friends involved in legal disputes to the court and seen more judges. Some of them were corrupt, some of them weren't. What they all were, is willing to get the job done.
Personal experience encompasses a lot more than the couple of examples that I gave here. Its the sum of my experiences, including that which my friends and acquaintances undergo, that form the basis of my opinions. On this very forum, I have heard supposedly educated people justifying pregnant women and "retarded" children being tasered by cops repeatedly because they were too "dangerous". Sorry stories like that creep me out.
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