The power of prayer - or not...

[finewine]

The power of prayer works in my life.

A good God would destroy evil.
An all powerful God could destroy evil.
Evil is not destroyed.
Therefore, there cannot possibly be such a good and powerful God. "

It's a Christian explanation, so not sure I agree with it! But none the less an interesting read!

I will have to read that.

There are those who say they are Christians but are in fact not Christians.
I would say that the author's logic is very flawed because he does not understand the truth of GOD's love. I would say that he is NOT a Christian even though he says he is if that is his take on GOD.

We box GOD into our own finite view so that we can bring HIM down to our level and tell HIM HE is not what HE says HE is so that we can go along our merrily way of continuing the evil and blaming HIM for it.

Lest we forget there were acts of destruction of evil... but the scoffers who convolute for their own agendas will call them myths to dismiss them.

And it is a good thing that GOD is a loving and patient GOD or HE'd wipe out all humanity that did not know HIS Son as redeemer of their souls. How many of you does that include?
The goodness of humanity is as filthy rags to GOD. We'd all be wiped out because our hearts are deceitfully wicked and who can know them.

His goodness is that he tolerates and loves us when we should be put to death.
We are arrogantly prideful to think we are as good or better than GOD.

The evil is perpetrated by the wicked heart of mankind.
Why are we not taking responsibility for it?? Why are we passing the buck to GOD?

Do you blame your parents for your lacking in your life instead of taking responsibility for your mismanagement of what was given to you?

If so, why do you do that?

Who says HE will not destroy evil? I say HE is patient to destroy the world waiting for that last soul to believe on HIS Son before HE brings the judgement and destruction on the evil of the world.

 

[Adstar]

Adstar:

*************
M*W: You're not just an ignorant bastard, you're an ignorant christian bastard. You defile your own kind and are an apostate to your faith. You need not worry about atheists murdering your sorry ass, we will gladly dust off your worthlessness from our hands. It will be your own brethren who do you deservedly in. You are a bigot to your own kind. I can't think of anything lower than you.

My kind follow the Messiah Jesus As Lord as well as Savoir.

*************
M*W: You are one sick individual. Yes, I took part in Vietnam, but I murdered no one. I saved lives. That was my job. I bear no guilt for my service to my country. Both my parents served in the US military (Army and Navy). They were in no way to blame for the atrocities in Japan and Korea, just like I'm not to blame for the horrors in Vietnam. (Yes, those were horrors I saw with my own eyes). My children are in no way to blame for the War in Iraq. No one desires the collateral damage of war, but I have never seen another human being gloat over the loss of lives of those who served their country --especially one's own ilk, like you. How shameful and embarassing! I certainly hope to see comments the christians on this forum post. Even I, as an atheist, feel the pain of christian families and friends who lost soldiers in wars, but you are a judgmental christian who has no regard for human life and sacrifice!

Was i gloating over the deaths of these solders was i gloating over anyone’s death???? No. You where there to support the killing in Vietnam and you are responsible for all the actions of the forces you serviced and supported.

*************
M*W: If there were a god, which there's not, he should know what's in my heart. But since there is no god, it is enough for me to know what is in my heart. It is not for you to judge me based on what I did for my country, because you don't know. You 'assume' I was running around in the jungle with an M16. You couldn't be more wrong.

Of course i know you where not running around in the jungle with an M16 I know you where a nurse in a medic Unit. Does that change anything? Your primary role was to patch up solders to make them available to go out and murder again. Therefore you take direct part in all their doings.

Yes God knows your heart and your expressing it here very well. You stand up like a pound arrogant person you are and scream that you are justified in what you have done. You have expressed your support for your nations actions in war, You have shown where your allegiance is. In the satanic powers that be in this world. So yeah God does know where you stand.

*************
M*W: Why do you 'assume' everybody but yourself is evil? LOL
You reveal nothing except your ignorance which is massive.

Where did i say i was not a sinner???????? Don't put words into my mouth, liar.

I agree with God that sin is wrong but you seek to justify your acts of evil by saying you where saving lives. You where not saving lives you where treating people so as to get them back into the fight so they could kill even more lives.

*************
M*W: Well, since no one has come back from your heaven or hell, and no one has yet to even senr a message from their eternal location, it would seem that heaven and hell are both imaginary locations created to extend fear and to control the minds of 'believers'. You are an evil christian. You are possessed by the ignorance in your own mind.

You do not know the meaning of fear, yet. You call the message of peace and love and non-resistance that i give is evil. So be it. You seek to justify yourself and attack anyone who reveals the evil you have taken part in. So be it. But the truth of Eternity with God and of the eternal lake of fire you will come to know. Sooner or later.

So vent and scream all you want anti-christ, your vanity and pride will not change the will of God.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

The power of prayer works in my life.




I will have to read that.

There are those who say they are Christians but are in fact not Christians.
I would say that the author's logic is very flawed because he does not understand the truth of GOD's love. I would say that he is NOT a Christian even though he says he is if that is his take on GOD.

.

Finewine THIS IS NOT the authors take on God, if you read the post or the link you'll see its just a bunch of questions that arise (usually by athiests) that he then goes to answer.

 

[(Q)]

When did i say all my prayers where for material things for my personal benefit?

You do not know what i pray for.

It doesn't matter what you pray for, that isn't the issue. And it would appear you don't have an answer because there isn't an answer. Prayer doesn't work, its that simple.

If it did, I should be able to pray to god to feed HIS CREATIONS. He refuses to do so.

Either he is a very cruel god or he simply doesn't exist. Take your choice.

 

[hug-a-tree]

It doesn't matter what you pray for, that isn't the issue. And it would appear you don't have an answer because there isn't an answer. Prayer doesn't work, its that simple.

If it did, I should be able to pray to god to feed HIS CREATIONS. He refuses to do so.

Either he is a very cruel god or he simply doesn't exist. Take your choice.

God created death, he won't stop it. Life is cruel in some ways. That's the way it is.

 

[(Q)]

Let's start by having the rich pay taxes, whoever they are, and in whatever situation, church or corporation, or private individual.
There will be an excess of funding, although we still won't use it to help anyone, we'll just improve our war machines.

p.s. We should be able to have nothing but pity for people who got wrangled into iraq, even if they are stupid enough to believe they are fighting a "just" war. Those people may be christian, but the american government is not, that is for sure.

Well, the rich do pay taxes, but giving more money to governments isn't going to solve the problem.

Theists, need to sell off those worthless buildings and land and use that money to feed the starving. Isn't that what their god would want them to do?

If not, why doesn't god simply do it himself? They are his creations, aren't they? Does he create people only to sit back and watch them starve to death?

 

[(Q)]

God created death, he won't stop it. Life is cruel in some ways. That's the way it is.

Then, god is cruel because he gives life to all and life is cruel. Thats the way it is?

 

[Nasor]

The problem with this reasoning is that it forgets that we are the ones who took a comfortable (enough) planet and killed each other, and stole from each other, and exploited each other's resources, and acted completely unfairly and greedily - now we say, "god must not exist because god didn't stop us from doing that to each other"

When Christians are faced with the question of “If God loves us, why doesn’t he help us when bad things happen?” they like to try to change it around to “Why doesn’t god stop people from doing bad things to other people?” Obviously these are not the same question. While you could perhaps use the argument about god not wanting to interfere with human free will to explain why he doesn’t stop people from deliberately hurting each other (although I think it is a weak argument), it doesn’t explain why god would refuse to answer a starving person’s prayers for food.

When a person in a drought-ridden African country prays to God for food and God doesn’t send food, what are we to conclude from that other than that God must have wanted the person to suffer and starve?

but then if God controlled us we would say, "we don't have freedom, God is a monster incapable of letting humans exist at all because God is forcing them to become robots."

This is just silly. It would not interfere in human free will in any way for God to give food to starving people, or prevent people from suffering from horrible diseases, or do most of the other things that people routinely beg God for.

P.s. nasor, I agree that it is strange to say God is omnipotent but things happen in a way that that is against God's wishes. If God allows freedom, and suffering comes with freedom, then God allows suffering.

It is difficult to imagine how a child suffering horribly and dying from a disease like progeria has anything to do with human freedom. No one chose for the child to get sick. No one even wanted the child to get sick. In fact, if a doctor had a cure for the child but refused to administer it for no apparent reason, people would say that the doctor was a horrible, evil person who should be reviled.

 

[Nasor]

There can be no good without evil, think about that for a while, this is not a God ponderance, it's a philosophical one. But the philosophical answer should clarify why sufferring and compassion exist and why each has its place in the world.

I suppose evil would have to exist as an abstract concept if good were to exist, since if good existed then the opposite of good would have to be a theoretical possibility. But that doesn't mean that evil things would ever actually have to happen. There's no reason why we couldn't live in such a way that everything was good and evil was merely a theoretical possibility that was never made manifest in real world.

 

[cole grey]

Well, the rich do pay taxes, but giving more money to governments isn't going to solve the problem.

Theists, need to sell off those worthless buildings and land and use that money to feed the starving. Isn't that what their god would want them to do?

If not, why doesn't god simply do it himself? They are his creations, aren't they? Does he create people only to sit back and watch them starve to death?

the rich in america have a lot of ways to avoid paying taxes, and they use them.
Once I had an actual job making music and wasn't working for myself and was making a lot of money and someone told me I had to buy a house or I was a dumbass, because I get to write off the interest on the loan, which is most of your payment. So I did, and did.
Basically, if you are too poor to buy a house you have to pay taxes on your housing and if you can buy a house you can make money instead of paying money, and avoid paying taxes on your housing, and on top of that not pay taxes on your profit, as long as you have enough money to buy a new house when you sell your house. Get my point about taxes? There are many more extravagant examples, but that should be a sufficient example.
Maybe you live in denmark or something.

If you see existence as cruel, you may see God as cruel.
I see existence as fairly benign, and people as cruel, and if people worked together there would be less than 5% of the suffering we have. I think this is hard to refute.
Now I agree, if God created us, it is his fault, but then you are going to have to condemn our existence as we are, which is hard to do, because we have no idea what it would be like if things were better. A stubbed toe could become somehow a life-changing, horrific, soul-mutilating event (I admit that it might not), but we don't know.

I will say this - I also wonder why God didn't just make us good instead of able to fuck things up, which is first shown by the story of adam and eve fucking things up.
I think it is to allow to evolve to the level of consciousness necessary to experience God, or have anyone feel that they do, in any way. That is just my thought though. Being happy animals instead of humans is a choice some peope would go for - i would not.

 

[(Q)]

the rich in america have a lot of ways to avoid paying taxes, and they use them.

Don't you yourself look for ways to avoid paying taxes?

Do churches pay taxes?

If you see existence as cruel, you may see God as cruel.

I see mankinds existence as a most wondrous thing. I see peoples versions of their gods as cruel.

I see existence as fairly benign, and people as cruel, and if people worked together there would be less than 5% of the suffering we have. I think this is hard to refute.

People can be cruel, but they can also understand cruelty and understand its consequences, and they can choose not to be cruel. That is the essence of our existence, the ability to reason and act upon it.

But mankind has been inundated with centuries of religious thought and dogma. Our very way of life is the result of those beliefs. The majority of the worlds population are religious, billions of people who believe in the supernatural.

The cruelty and suffering you see today is a result of those centuries of religious thought and dogma.

Now I agree, if God created us, it is his fault, but then you are going to have to condemn our existence as we are, which is hard to do, because we have no idea what it would be like if things were better.

Of course not, mankind hasn't had a chance to exist religious-free for a very long time, if ever. Is there any reason you can see for not trying?

I will say this - I also wonder why God didn't just make us good instead of able to fuck things up, which is first shown by the story of adam and eve fucking things up.

You can do good yourself, anyone can, and can do it all the time, if you so desire. They just have to believe that its themselves that are doing it. What's so hard about that?

I think it is to allow to evolve to the level of consciousness necessary to experience God, or have anyone feel that they do, in any way. That is just my thought though. Being happy animals instead of humans is a choice some peope would go for - i would not.

I would make the same choice as you, to be a human. All one must do is evolve to the level of reason necessary to experience humanity.

 

[cole grey]

Don't you yourself look for ways to avoid paying taxes?

I just explained how i did. In response to you saying the rich pay taxes. In response to me saying they don't. My explanation of how i avoid payng taxes shows my point.

Do churches pay taxes?

They should. Any profit should be taxed.

I see mankinds existence as a most wondrous thing. I see peoples versions of their gods as cruel.

your version of their gods.

The cruelty and suffering you see today is a result of those centuries of religious thought and dogma.

This is a myopic view of the causes of human suffering, there are more reasons why humans hurt each other than religious ones.

I would make the same choice as you, to be a human. All one must do is evolve to the level of reason necessary to experience humanity.

Without pressure, no change is necessary. I personally think that a necessary pressure for the evolution of that level of reason may be negative circumstance.

 

[mustafhakofi]

post one iota of pray actuelly working, or have worked. it just ai'nt going to happen.

 

[(Q)]

I just explained how i did. In response to you saying the rich pay taxes. In response to me saying they don't. My explanation of how i avoid payng taxes shows my point.

Actually, your point is moot because everyone avoids paying taxes, not just the rich.

your version of their gods.

Sorry, but I have no versions of any gods, because I have no concept of religion other than what has been presented to me by theists and their scriptures.

This is a myopic view of the causes of human suffering, there are more reasons why humans hurt each other than religious ones.

The majority of human suffering has been caused by religious people driven by their beliefs. We can start there simply because it's easily identifiable as such. By removing the religion and substituting it with education, much of the cruelty and suffering would stop.

Without pressure, no change is necessary. I personally think that a necessary pressure for the evolution of that level of reason may be negative circumstance.

How can that be? Circumstances are neither positive or negative, it is the perception and way of thought that makes it such.

Being human means to be part of the earth, and not part of a glorified fantasy.

 

[Godless]

**Here's the question from Marilyn's column:

Q: Is it true that the rich pay very little tax?

A: No, and this is the myth, more than any other, that has created the unwarranted and destructive dissension among the so-called economic classes in this country. The wealthy pay a truly stunning amount of tax, and there are virtually no exceptions. Anyone who thinks otherwise has been misguided.**http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_139.html

**Yes, the bottom 62% of taxpayers -those with annual incomes under $40,000 - will get only 10% of the total income tax cut under a plan that cuts each tax rate by 10%. But these people pay less than 5% of total income taxes, according to data from the House Ways and Means Committee.

And while it's also fair to say that the top 10% - those who earn more than $89,000 a year - will get 62% of the total tax cut, an honest analysis would include the percentage of total income taxes these people pay. In fact, the Ways and Means numbers show that the top 8.7% of earners pay 62% of all income taxes in the U.S.** http://reason.com/opeds/lynch022499.shtml

**What had gotten the class-warfare crowd so worked up was my statement that no one can credibly call the Bush tax plan a "tax cut for the rich" because the rich pay a larger share of federal income taxes than they would have if Bush hadn't cut taxes.

My source is a study by the Treasury Department on tax shares paid by income groups. Treasury estimates that the top 1 percent will pay about 32.3 percent of all taxes this year. Treasury also estimates that absent the tax cuts, the top 1 percent would be paying only 30.5 percent of taxes, down 10 percent from 2001.**http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_19_56/ai_n13673328

Don't tell me about the rich not paying taxes, That's a load of BS, though I'm not rich my father was moderately well off, he used to tell us, the freaking taxes is draining him. My pops made well over 300k a year, one way he hid his income was to create dummy corporations, there are tactics one can use to cut their taxes. Is this fair. I believe so, cause income tax mandated by a government is unfair, and amoral. That just makes us slaves, and the rich pay for the poor, it has been, always will be. Though because of life style differences, the poor always thinks they are getting duped. p

Think of this way, if it were not for the rich enterprizing people, were the hell would you get any income.? The rich provide jobs, they pay more taxes on income earned, but they also use their "brains" to find loopholes!

Godless

 

[cole grey]

Your father's dummy corporations are just another example of the rich not paying their taxes.
Now, whether or not the income tax is fair is another subject, I don't insist either way, I was just talking about the resources that are available to feed the starving children in africa.
If you follow the idea that taxes are not equitable to the extreme, perhaps we shouldn't even have public schools for the poor people's children, or public water purification facilities.

edit- we're way off the subject now obviously

 

[cole grey]

I was just pointing out that we have the resources for everyone to be reasonably cared for, so we are responsible, whether or not God exists.

Sorry, but I have no versions of any gods, because I have no concept of religion other than what has been presented to me by theists and their scriptures.

your version is the version you recieved from those people. You cannot add anything intelligent to a subject you have no perceptions about, you can just say, no, or yes, or grunt. I have perceptions of what it is like to be black, or rich, or gay, they are my perceptions or versions of the experience, although I don't have a personally verifiable version. It is the same with your idea of God if you have no personal experience with a version of God. Or maybe your version is a version you had in the past - it is still your version, even if you use it to insist that the physical existence of the idea presented by your version is impossible.

The majority of human suffering has been caused by religious people driven by their beliefs. We can start there simply because it's easily identifiable as such. By removing the religion and substituting it with education, much of the cruelty and suffering would stop.

The cause of religious beliefs being twisted to hurt and destroy is human greed and pride. We had humans, and their anscestors probably, killing each other and hurting each other before we had any importance paid to religious ideas I'm sure.

How can that be? Circumstances are neither positive or negative, it is the perception and way of thought that makes it such.

Being human means to be part of the earth, and not part of a glorified fantasy.

I am saying that evolutionarily change is made possible by environmental pressure. Without that, random changes could occur I guess, but not focused changes.

 

[(Q)]

I was just pointing out that we have the resources for everyone to be reasonably cared for, so we are responsible, whether or not God exists.

We may have the resources but we certainly don't care for everyone, otherwise would children be starving to death every day?

your version is the version you recieved from those people. You cannot add anything intelligent to a subject you have no perceptions about, you can just say, no, or yes, or grunt. I have perceptions of what it is like to be black, or rich, or gay, they are my perceptions or versions of the experience, although I don't have a personally verifiable version. It is the same with your idea of God if you have no personal experience with a version of God. Or maybe your version is a version you had in the past - it is still your version, even if you use it to insist that the physical existence of the idea presented by your version is impossible.

You're confused. I have NO versions of god myself. I am unable to provide a version of a god since there is nothing whatsoever, other than scriptures and the imaginations of others, to refer. And even then, the versions provided by theists are vague at best.

You may have perceptions of blacks, the rich or gay people, but these are real tangible things, not fantasies conjured in the minds of men.

The cause of religious beliefs being twisted to hurt and destroy is human greed and pride. We had humans, and their anscestors probably, killing each other and hurting each other before we had any importance paid to religious ideas I'm sure.

No, religious beliefs are what twisted the minds of men to hurt and destroy in the name of their gods.

Yes, our anscestors probably did kill each other, by the same ignorance that religion now provides. It is only through reason and rationale that we can put an end to that destruction. Religion may have tried, but failed, miserably.

Had we the forethought to go the way of reason instead of religion centuries ago, our way of life would be very different indeed. There would be no wars, no famine, no disease, and most importantly, no ignorance and fear, that which drives religion.

 

[Athelwulf]

You assume it is Gods Will that that men using their logic would be able to prove His existence. [snip]

How oddly convenient...

 

[cole grey]

You're confused. I have NO versions of god myself. I am unable to provide a version of a god since there is nothing whatsoever, other than scriptures and the imaginations of others, to refer. And even then, the versions provided by theists are vague at best.

You are confused. If the word "God" has no connotations or meaning to you, you cannot functionally use it in a sentence. If your meaning is, "that thing other people attach meaning to, but i do not," how can you even discuss it? If I said, "finding a man sexually attractive is insane," even though it is unreasonable to me what would you label me? Ignorant. I make no such claims upon other people's ideas because they are the ones who have them, not me - if you have no ideas of your own about God you should not make claims either. What do you say to the person who posted earlier saying God is the inner higher consciousness, or whatever? Tell them their version is incorrect so you can continue trying to explain God as irrational, but by doing so you do claim a version for yourself.

No, religious beliefs are what twisted the minds of men to hurt and destroy in the name of their gods.

contradicts with

Yes, our anscestors probably did kill each other, by the same ignorance that religion now provides.

If the ignorance was there, and is now exemplified by bad religion, does that make bad religion the cause or the effect?

Had we the forethought to go the way of reason instead of religion centuries ago, our way of life would be very different indeed. There would be no wars, no famine, no disease, and most importantly, no ignorance and fear, that which drives religion.

I agree that the way we approached religion in the past was ingorant, fearful, and unreasonable, but that by no means makes religion the cause of our ignorance. Only the abuse of it by power hungry groups and individuals, is the cause of ignorance.