The Nothingness of Nothing

Which possibility do you agree with for the universe

  • God did it

    Votes: 8 25.0%
  • Something from nothing

    Votes: 4 12.5%
  • Always existed (no beginning)

    Votes: 8 25.0%
  • Some other possibility

    Votes: 12 37.5%

  • Total voters
    32
A side note

I don't know where the conversation is at this moment, but I'd just like to share my view. I personally have to believe there was nothing, and that when I go there will be absolute nothing waiting. I need that peaceful solution to this chaotic, noisy world we live in. I cherish the day I can relax and cease to be. Don't get me wrong. I don't want to die yet, but the idea of nothing is calming.
It's hard for me to believe in the nothing if I don't believe that everything originally came from nothing.
 
probably a good idea to look at the definition a little and maybe get examples of various definitions/examples through the ages and across religions.

nothingness to Christians is probably hell which is an anti Christ of ones own desires(somewhat a lustful materialistic concept but that's Christianity in its fundamentalist constructs.

mayan

egyptian

etc...

Didn't the Egyptians believe that if your heart was weighed and decided 'bad', that it would be eaten and you would cease to exist at all and there was no way of returning?
 
nothingness and existence

It amuses me to see so many people searching for an absolute eternal truth within the playground of dualistic phenomena. Has anyone ever seen a dog chasing it's own tail?
The importance of one's personal philosophical beliefs cannot be overstated. Most of us have learned to function quite well within the Aristotelean framework of accepted beliefs, and have yet to discover the limits of said framework of beliefs' ability to answer certain questions of being. Nothingness is a question of being or existence and is unanswerable within the Aristotelean belief system.
There are other philosphical belief systems better suited.
There are those which do not require a "big bang".
 
Nothingness is a question of being or existence

The majority of this discussion has remained quite squarely within the context of defining "nothing" so far as it relates, or does not relate, to the origin of the universe. It's mostly a question of physics, but because the physics are incomplete the question necessarily calls upon more philosophical considerations. In this particular case I believe, as do many others, that physics will eventually provide an answer.

But the question is not about the nature of nothingness, or the nature of being or existence, as you seem to be thinking. It is about the definition of nothing within the framework of physics and whether or not that nothing can actually be said to be something. So we aren't chasing our tails here. We are chasing a more advanced understanding of the nature of the physical universe and that chase has always been a fruitful endeavor.
 
I would reply that a more advanced understanding of the nature of the physical universe will come when there is an understanding of one's personal nature and how that relates to the physical universe as you call it. But I will leave you guys in peace to continue your search. Hopefully it will be, as you say, a fruitful endeavor.
 
6 pages and no mention of kierkegaard, heidegger, sartre, st. john of the cross, pseudo-dionysius, parmalee of melniborne, or daisy de bingen? or even zen? not even that loathesome positivistic schmuck, carnap, and his trite accusations of "nonsense" (i think i've encountered a number of his offspring). and only cursory mention of nothingness as it relates to being. this is the comparative religion subforum--do we have to be talking physics?

the bane of the empiricists: the phenomelogical experience of nothing. kind of anti-scientific, that.

got plenty to choose from, but we'll go back nearly 15-odd years to the 14th floor of perhaps that ugliest of monstrosities amongst gems, robarts library in toronto (i'm sure glaucon has seen this one). that crappy television series, paper chase was shot here because it looked "more harvard than harvard." that, and it's cheaper to shoot in canada.

anyhow, i was rambling on about how "the gospel of philip" is actually a comprehensive soteriological text, only it's fragments had been arranged in the wrong sequence. the computer center was a trifle warmer than the rest of the building but not this warm, and seldom nauseau inducing (but not quite yet Nauseau). i looked about me and the studentish-sorts had all but entirely morphed into faceless, featureless entities far more extreme than any leper i had ever encountered. anyone who has spent time amongst a leper colony in south asia should know what i am talking about: the orifices were merely blackened holes and the limbs appeared incongruous appendages. and so, it seemed an appropriate time to get the hell out of there.

control over my own appendages had slipped, and i abandoned the idea of properly saving my file and packing away my belongings. rather i "focused" on simply making my way to the elevator. but there was no "i" to focus, i had slipped away and what remained was raw perception--of my now unrecognizable form from afar. moreover, everything had changed more than ever so slightly and locating this "elevator," which now seemed such an elusive and foreign notion, did take nothing short of an eternity. still, "i" eventually located something, lest i not be here today and some "buttons" were pushed and this form slithered into the smaller box. the ground had quietly slipped away as had everything else, and i'm not entirely certain that my entry into the box was accomplished by "walking"; and likewise, the buttons and all such things had just as quietly slipped away.

and then there were the voices, but was anyone actually saying anything? i've no fucking clue, i just know that the voices were there.

the common refrain that such things are "ineffable" seems contrived, but language does prove inadequate nonetheless: dread (rather, urspruengliche angst), unheimlichkeit (what does "uncanny" really mean? not that "un-home-like-ness" is really all that much better, but at least it does suggest something), alien-ness (again, befremdlichkeit is only somewhat more adequate). not very helpful. but is "slipping away from the totality of being (seiende im ganzen)" and only dasein remains, with emphasis on the da, any more useful? one could cite some relevant bits from heidegger--particularly passages from "what is metaphysics?" (the post-script most especially)--for the "technical" explanation, but perhaps carnap was right (just this one time, of course): such is nonsense. it doesn't really say anything.

das nichts nichtet--the nothing nothings.

or perhaps lewis carroll, being the logical sort, could get this matter straightened out:

"i see nobody on the road," alice cried.
"i only wish i had such eyes," remarked the king. "to be able to see nobody! at that distance too."

still, not very helpful.

i don't think that one can really say much of anything at all about nothing. this annihilation of "self," the experience of depersonalization and derealization, "the dark night of the soul." all useless.

wittgenstein "knew" this as well. and as soon as carnap, russell, ayer, et al (the vienna circle sorts) figured this out, they also realized that they had gotten the tractatus all wrong: it's not simply that it's "nonsense" to talk about that which lies outside of space and time; rather, any effort to speak about such is inevitably doomed for the start--for that which is most important really cannot be spoken "about." well, maybe one can speak about it, but that is all: to speak it is another matter altogether--"nonsense."

and this "nothing" lies at the core of being--our being (or there being, dasein). when you know it for yourselves, you simply know it for yourselves, and trying to talk about it only makes one appear a fool. (not that i care.)

"nothing" is hardly a concept, and one deigns to think of it as such, one misses the mark entirely. this reification of nothing is nothing more than a futile endeavor. sunyata can only be experienced, hence the problem for the empirical sciences. evidence? how is one to demonstrate one's findings? is it repeatable? sure, but a lot of good that does when noone can really articulate what exactly is repeatable.

that's all that nothing is to me, at least.

anyhow, fire away!
 
...
anyhow, fire away!
Lol, nice entry. I would have found it difficult to say almost nothing in so many words. You failed to say nothing when you inserted:
parmalee said:
or perhaps lewis carroll, being the logical sort, could get this matter straightened out:

"i see nobody on the road," alice cried.
"i only wish i had such eyes," remarked the king. "to be able to see nobody! at that distance too."

still, not very helpful.
I found that helpful ;).

Really, it was a joy to read your post. Stay with us and feel free to ignore me.
 
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Lol, nice entry. I would have found it difficult to say almost nothing in so many words.

i agree--it's extremely difficult to say nothing. yet, so many have written entire volumes on such.

incidentally, the personal anecdote related above was abbreviated (and paraphrased) from 14 hand-printed pages, in a tiny little font of my own devising. :D

You failed to say nothing when you inserted:
I found that helpful ;).

Really, it was a joy to read your post. Stay with us and feel free to ignore me.

when logicians talk about nothing it can be quite fascinating; unfortunately most consider it an unworthy endeavor. and carnap composed a massive essay dismissing heidegger's one particular piece on nothing--the essay "what is metaphysics?", with an even longer post-script written many years later. he described it as metaphysical nonsense, kind of missing the point entirely as far as i can tell.
 
i agree--it's extremely difficult to say nothing. yet, so many have written entire volumes on such.

incidentally, the personal anecdote related above was abbreviated (and paraphrased) from 14 hand-printed pages, in a tiny little font of my own devising. :D
Yeah? When did you write it?
when logicians talk about nothing it can be quite fascinating; unfortunately most consider it an unworthy endeavor. and carnap composed a massive essay dismissing heidegger's one particular piece on nothing--the essay "what is metaphysics?", with an even longer post-script written many years later. he described it as metaphysical nonsense, kind of missing the point entirely as far as i can tell.
You almost make it sound interesting enough for me to give up my quest for reality and start reading philosophy. But for now I will resist except for a quick Google of carnap (I’m sure he is too insignificant to demand a capital “c”.
 
But for now I will resist except for a quick Google of carnap (I’m sure he is too insignificant to demand a capital “c”.
Logical positivism. I am sure I don't want the details right now, but maybe when we solve "nothingness". Or will I need that to solve it?

Just curious, how does a philosopher answer the poll question?
 
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Yeah? When did you write it?

that particular incident happened almost 15 years ago when i was a graduate student (u. of toronto). oddly, i come from a pretty impoverished background--my father abandoned us and my mother made minimum wage (she has lupus and was often too ill to work)--yet i pursued the most impractical matters in university: philosophy and religious studies. AND, i got paid well to do it: scholarships are often quite generous for that magical combination of being poor and testing extremely well. and where did it get me? apart from fact-checking, proof-reading, and writing (heh. the sort i do does not not pay well), i've held decidely non-academic professions for the entirety of my adult life: musician, dog trainer, coffee roaster, chef, and all-around peripatetic artisan (unfortunately, i can't take credit for that term--a reviewer coined it).

anyhow, epilepsy--specifically left temporal lobe seizures--often "afflicts" one with hypergraphia: i feel compelled to document everything to the point at which my hands bleed. actually, the lower-case thing is a product of such as well.

You almost make it sound interesting enough for me to give up my quest for reality and start reading philosophy. But for now I will resist except for a quick Google of carnap (I’m sure he is too insignificant to demand a capital “c”.

Logical positivism. I am sure I don't want the details right now, but maybe when we solve "nothingness". Or will I need that to solve it?

carnap was of the extreme brand of positivists. interestingly, he was far more sympathetic towards metaphysics and such in his early years; but then he had some sort of "epiphany" i guess, and ruled all such things utter and complete nonsense.

he and his mates considered wittgenstein and the tractatus a work of sheer genius; but when they finally got around to meeting wittgenstein, they deemed him a "nutter." IOW they realized that where they thought w. was being facetious, he was actually being quite serious. w. only wanted to discuss things like william james' varieties of religious experience and whatnots.

this matter of nothing and nothingness has plagued folks around the world for at least a couple thousand years, and while it seems a cop-out, i feel that it can only be experienced and NOT articulated.

Just curious, how does a philosopher answer the poll question?

there's a poll in this thread? how could i have overlooked that? i still can't seem to find it.
 
that particular incident happened almost 15 years ago when i was a graduate student (u. of toronto). oddly, i come from a pretty impoverished background--my father abandoned us and my mother made minimum wage (she has lupus and was often too ill to work)--yet i pursued the most impractical matters in university: philosophy and religious studies. AND, i got paid well to do it: scholarships are often quite generous for that magical combination of being poor and testing extremely well. and where did it get me? apart from fact-checking, proof-reading, and writing (heh. the sort i do does not not pay well), i've held decidely non-academic professions for the entirety of my adult life: musician, dog trainer, coffee roaster, chef, and all-around peripatetic artisan (unfortunately, i can't take credit for that term--a reviewer coined it).
You have talent.

I come from a broken family. Mom took me and my brother out of a bad marriage to a Dad who didn't want kids. She raised us by working two jobs and going to business college. While I was in jr. high she had the insight to take a job in a college town and even managed to find me a full tuition and books scholarship to MSU in E. Lansing, MI. My major was Financial Administration and my career in finance kept me out of trouble. Somehow I never was interested in Philosophy during or after I graduated, but I am beginning to see that I tend toward the intellectual since I have retired :).
anyhow, epilepsy--specifically left temporal lobe seizures--often "afflicts" one with hypergraphia: i feel compelled to document everything to the point at which my hands bleed. actually, the lower-case thing is a product of such as well.



carnap was of the extreme brand of positivists. interestingly, he was far more sympathetic towards metaphysics and such in his early years; but then he had some sort of "epiphany" i guess, and ruled all such things utter and complete nonsense.

he and his mates considered wittgenstein and the tractatus a work of sheer genius; but when they finally got around to meeting wittgenstein, they deemed him a "nutter." IOW they realized that where they thought w. was being facetious, he was actually being quite serious. w. only wanted to discuss things like william james' varieties of religious experience and whatnots.
That is a great story.
this matter of nothing and nothingness has plagued folks around the world for at least a couple thousand years, and while it seems a cop-out, i feel that it can only be experienced and NOT articulated.
My interest is more from a cosmological perspective. To me, "nothingness" doesn't compute. I see no way for something to come from nothing and I see no way for a universe to be finite and not be imposing on nothingness as it expands. Just seems wrong to me.
there's a poll in this thread? how could i have overlooked that? i still can't seem to find it.
Are you sure?
 
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tdhis is the comparative religion subforum--do we have to be talking physics?
This is supposed to be a place of science, and most of us are only wannabe-scientists at that. There aren't very many members who are well-versed in philosophy. I suspect I'm not the only one here who can't understand your posts on this thread and who has no idea who most of the people you just named are or were. Except Lewis Carroll of course.
To me, "nothingness" doesn't compute. I see no way for something to come from nothing and I see no way for a universe to be finite and not be imposing on nothingness as it expands. Just seems wrong to me.
You're just getting hung up on the words and stumbling over semantics. The word "nothing" was handed down from a time when the technology to study the universe outside of earth's biosphere was too primitive to matter, and what passed for cosmology was almost entirely supernaturalism. So don't be too disappointed if "nothing" is not only not a very useful term in this discussion, but may actually be misleading.

Is the space-time continuum something real or just an abstraction, if it contains no matter or energy? If you asked that question to the most profound scholar in the tenth century CE, the earliest record of the word "nothing," do you think he would understand it, much less come up with an answer?
 
You're just getting hung up on the words and stumbling over semantics. The word "nothing" was handed down from a time when the technology to study the universe outside of earth's biosphere was too primitive to matter, and what passed for cosmology was almost entirely supernaturalism. So don't be too disappointed if "nothing" is not only not a very useful term in this discussion, but may actually be misleading.

Is the space-time continuum something real or just an abstraction, if it contains no matter or energy? If you asked that question to the most profound scholar in the tenth century CE, the earliest record of the word "nothing," do you think he would understand it, much less come up with an answer?
It does help when you put it into that perspective. But why are there professionals in the scientific community that take General Relativity’s “look back” so literally that they conclude that the universe emerged from nothing and they discuss mathematics that prove to them that something can come from nothing.

Dy linked us to a web page purporting to do that, though she was hesitant to say she agreed with it. But there are those who take it seriously.
 
Even if it were possible for there to be "nothing," isn't whatever that is still "something" ?
 
Even if it were possible for there to be "nothing," isn't whatever that is still "something" ?
Hmm, would it have to be "something"? I don't even see how it is possible for there to have been "nothing" so to me it isn't something; it is a concept I guess. How many of you are thinking, "the universe doesn't care what I think"? I'm guessing half or more :).

I’m glad that we finally got a vote for God (this is a reference to the poll).

Early in the thread I met 786 and we discussed three possible explanations for the existence of the universe, God, something from nothing, and eternal. 786 was clear and comfortable with being a believer, and while I didn’t express a belief in or denial of God, I did opt for the “eternal” explanation, feeling comfortable that the universe has always existed.

We both rejected the “something from nothing” explanation because we agreed that it fails as an explanation. However, as the discussion progressed, there were objections from some to the list of possible explanations, saying that there should be a fourth explanation called “all other”.

Soon after that I asked 786 if he could add a poll to the thread with those four possible explanations. You see the result at the top of any page. Up until the last few days, no one had chosen the “God did it” option. Knowing 786’s position on the matter I knew there had to be a “yes” to God out there somewhere.

But what interests me is that half of the 14 votes so far are for the “Some other possibility”. What do we know about them? They are close to being the majority so far. We know that they don’t believe that “God did it”. Does that make them Atheists? We know that they don’t opt for “Something from nothing”; does that make them practical? I think that 786 and I would say it does. And they are not ready or able to say that the universe has always existed. Does that make them confused. I would say it does.

Why do I say confused, you ask? It is because they don’t think God did it, they don’t think the universe had a beginning, and they don’t think the universe is eternal. I would say they were the scientists and mathematicians. :D Just kidding about the "confused" part.
 
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Two votes for God now.

Cunning linguists try to make something important out of the fact that nothing really is something. Of course it is something! It is a word!

It is a word that means no thing. It is a means of communication that portrays the message that there is no thing there.

Nothing is a word used in human communication.

Nothing communicates that there is no thing in the circumstance that is the subject of the communication.

I am enthusiastically (though in no eagerness to prematurely hurry the matter) awaiting the time that I can sit down with Jesus in the garden in the cool of the evening and inquire of Him the meaning of life, the universe, and everything. I am prepared for the possibility that, even in Heaven in Eternity, there may be some wisdoms that will never ever be presented to any man.

The existence of life, the universe, and everything, to the best of my understanding, out of no thing, is a mystery that may or may not ever be revealed to me. I can deal with it.
 
It does help when you put it into that perspective.
Well thanks. As the Linguistics Moderator I find that looking at words, their connotations, and the way they shape our thinking can often clarify a discussion.
But why are there professionals in the scientific community that take General Relativity’s “look back” so literally that they conclude that the universe emerged from nothing and they discuss mathematics that prove to them that something can come from nothing.
Because the paradigms and patterns of the language we speak can't help but shape the paradigms and patterns of our thoughts. Unless you're someone like a musician, an athlete, a sculptor, etc. most of your thoughts are formed--or at least fleshed out--in words. In other words, the tool you use to build things influences what you build. ("If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.")

This is why I stridently insist that every child should be taught a second language, and the more foreign (unrelated) the better. Having two different ways of thinking allows you to critically review your own ideas from a different perspective.
Even if it were possible for there to be "nothing," isn't whatever that is still "something" ?
Q.E.D! Your question hinges on the words. If you used the Spanish words nada and algo the answer to your question would not be so intuitive. And English and Spanish are cousins in the same language family. Try a totally unrelated language like Chinese and it might be difficult to phrase the question in such a provocative way at all!
We both rejected the “something from nothing” explanation because we agreed that it fails as an explanation.
But why? I offered a rationale supporting that explanation based only upon the juxtaposition of two very uncontroversial premises:
  • 1. The occurrence of the words "tends to" in the Second Law of Thermodynamics, rather than "always"
  • 2. Probability theory
Up until the last few days, no one had chosen the “God did it” option.
The question of the validity of that option takes us right back into my turf on this website: Language.
  • The definition of the "universe" is: "Everything that exists."
  • If a force, an object, or any other combination of elementary particles is able to do something that affects other forces, objects or other combinations of elementary particles, then it satisfies the definition of "existing."
  • Therefore, if God created the universe, he exists, or at least he did at that moment.
  • Therefore, the universe includes God.
  • Therefore, God created himself.
Various ways of getting around this fallacy of recursion can be suggested. One is that God existed before the Big Bang and instantly ceased to exist. This certainly sounds like my model of a multiverse in which individual universes spring into existence at exceedingly rare intervals. But rather than relying on the "tends to" loophole in the Second Law as mine does, this model postulates a causative relationship between one individual universe and the next. It's not as elegant as my model which is no reason to reject it, but it leaves some gigantic questions unanswered:
  • If the Big Bang itself is difficult to explain, how do we explain the relationship between the demise of one individual universe and the sudden appearance of its successor?
  • Where did the first individual universe come from?

Of course the far more common fallacy-buster is the assertion that God is not comprised of elementary particles and exists outside of the universe in both space and time. Furthermore it's usually postulated that he is exempt from all the natural laws of the universe, especialy entropy, and possibly even exempt from rationality. This is supernaturalism, which is unscientific at best and antiscientific at worst. The principles of science tell us that we are not obliged to pay much attention to supernaturalism.
  • Occam tells us to test the simpler solutions first, and my two models are far simpler.
  • Laplace tells us that an extraordinary assertion must be supported by extraordinary evidence before we are obliged to treat it with respect. Neither of my models is extraordinary. Supernaturalism contradicts more than one scientific theory, making it extraordinary, and in fact it contradicts the exhaustively-tested fundamental premise that underlies all of science and defines the scientific method: The natural universe is a closed system (in layman's language) whose behavior can be predicted by theories derived logically from empirical observation of its past and present behavior. Supernaturalism not only has no extraordinary evidence, it does not even have any ordinary evidence except mythology.
I still insist that my two models are plausible and do not violate science.
  • 1. There is no reason to assume that time is an arithmetic variable. If it is a logarithmic variable, with an "absolute zero" at minus infinity, then both if these statements are true: The universe has always existed; and, There was a Big Bang.
  • 2. Space-time is arithmetically infinite both spatially and temporally. In an infinite continuum the loophole in the Second Law allows for enormous, balanced collections of elementary particles and antiparticles to spring into existence at enormously rare intervals and enormous distances from each other. Therefore the universe has always existed but is more properly called a multiverse, and most of the time it's empty; and the Big Bang occurred, and similar events have occurred before and will occur again; and the question of what happened before the Big Bang has an answer: probably another one.
Why do I say confused, you ask?
Because their thoughts are influenced by the words available to them.
 
The rational thinker seeks understanding by wrestling ideas into focus rather than getting hung up on semantics. Language can influence the formation of thoughts and ideas, sure, but it does not compromise our ability to see truth.

As far as communication is concerned, I think everyone is aware of the limitations of language when it comes to conveying important subtleties. This is why we give examples and use illustrations when we are explaining something important. You could take half of the commonly used words out of the dictionary, and alter the meaning of half of the words that are left, and it would still be possible to accurately communicate a complex idea if you were given enough time.
 
Rav, I agree with your evaluation that communication, in spite of the limitations on conveying important subtleties, can be accomplished with the use of examples and illustrations, but I consider it even more effective to be able to use similar words from other languages that have the needed nuances. Of course that requires fluency in those languages by both or all parties to the communication.

Hi FR, thanks for your post last week on this thread. I started to read through the thread again and wanted to give you a worthy response. And I will think on that but right now I can say that I am more comfortable with speculation than you are, but I do base all of my speculations on departure points in science and current theory. I'm comfortable going beyond the Hubble volume because if there were preconditions to the Big Bang, then there is an "outside the event horizon" that we might have to consider in order to put together theory that has any chance of addressing reality. What say you?
 
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