The Nothingness of Nothing

Which possibility do you agree with for the universe

  • God did it

    Votes: 8 25.0%
  • Something from nothing

    Votes: 4 12.5%
  • Always existed (no beginning)

    Votes: 8 25.0%
  • Some other possibility

    Votes: 12 37.5%

  • Total voters
    32
I feel the problem is of infinite regression if one continues... If God is outside of time and space and created space-time then he is eternal by definition and uncreated as it requires time to come from somewhere-or the time is a singularity of not-existing where coming from somewhere is the same as being there- as such there is no claim of coming from 'nothing', so the same problem is not presented-
You are making the same infinite regression, arriving at God outside of space and time and God is the infinite. And science does not say spacetime is the only version of the universe. It is the consensus and it is one that implies a beginning but there are alternatives and science makes no claim that any one alternative is proven. One of the scientific alternatives is that there was no beginning, i.e. the universe itself has always existed. That makes it a choice between an infinite universe and an infinite God. There is no irrefutable evidence for either and so the choice narrows to the two.
Secondly nothing natural can answer the question 'why' so even then God is the only choice.
I don't see how that makes sense. What is the "why" that you mention?
Lastly although you are right that I have been taught religion and God- one has to wonder that people came to natural conclusion of God from all along.... even if it were to explain the unexplained it was their natural conclusion-
True, many do seek the truth, follow their path, and find God. But different people find God from both starting points, i.e. from a start within a faith, and a start from scratch. If they were taught a religion that is based on God, and then they seek their own discovery, if that discovery is God, it does not come with a particular religion. You were taught a particular religion and did not arrive at the details of your faith by following a path of discovery. You took the self discovery of God and applied a whole set of characteristics to it from your learned faith. What a coincidence. Maybe you didn't discover God after all, or at least not yet.
the only reason the idea seems to be losing credibility is that science seems to explain those 'unexplainable' factors and has predictive power- but as I pointed out there is a reason why science has predictive power and that is actually further proof of God if anything, although people don't tend to think like that but take our success in science to their heads....
I understand that you are depicting the nature of the universe as a fine tuned instrument that could only produce life and intelligence, therefore it must be planned. And a God could plan it from any number of different religious bases. But there is another view which says that it is not as fine tuned as you imply. Life could be generated when the environment and chemistry is right, but there is a wide range of possible life generative conditions and a wide variety of possible life forms. We are Humans and our home is Earth but we could just a easily have been a completely different life form living under significantly different environmental conditions and chemistries of life on any number of different planets.
 
You are making the same infinite regression, arriving at God outside of space and time and God is the infinite.

True, that is what I was trying to get through.

There is no irrefutable evidence for either and so the choice narrows to the two.I don't see how that makes sense. What is the "why" that you mention?

The choice narrows between two until it is only one when you believe that there is a reason to the universe and everything in it- for example if I ask the question : Why does the universe exist? Why does it continue to exist? Why did it lead to life? Why do these laws exist? Why do these laws allow life?--- The only answer to a 'why' can only be presented by something that has said that there is a reason for these things- the only choice between the two that can answer these question is God. Because an infinite beginning does not answer any of those 'whys'- Perhaps why is the wrong question? Maybe there is no reason for any of it- but that is hard to believe that everything happened to be a coincidence- again both without evidence but with a choice- If I choose that none of this is a coincidence that God becomes the only solution.

You were taught a particular religion and did not arrive at the details of your faith by following a path of discovery. You took the self discovery of God and applied a whole set of characteristics to it from your learned faith. What a coincidence. Maybe you didn't discover God after all, or at least not yet.

Actually once one accepts that God is the answer then to ascribe him his characteristics is not too difficult. I've gone through the process of if a God exist what must he be. And from religion backwards as well. Everything goes back to the question of 'purpose' and how religion fits into that.. Any religion for that matter... and then how each religion does not fit.

I understand that you are depicting the nature of the universe as a fine tuned instrument that could only produce life and intelligence, therefore it must be planned. And a God could plan it from any number of different religious bases. But there is another view which says that it is not as fine tuned as you imply. Life could be generated when the environment and chemistry is right, but there is a wide range of possible life generative conditions and a wide variety of possible life forms.

Actually what I was implying by 'fine tuned' is not that it our current universe allows for life to exist, but that these laws- the very fundamental laws that govern the universe allow for it- and the fact that all these laws are in some defined correlation in their interactions and not just random laws that have no defined interaction- this is precisely why science is predictive- why? Because these laws are not random at all.. And as you said if the 'chemistry is right' - chemistry is governed by laws- its not that the chemistry has to be right but the laws have to be right.... Laws that do not interact will lead to nothing- why is that that different laws interact- why is there such a thing as interaction- why is it that these laws interact in defined manner and not in a random manner? For if it were interacting in some random fashion then none of science could be predictive.

We are Humans and our home is Earth but we could just a easily have been a completely different life form living under significantly different environmental conditions and chemistries of life on any number of different planets.

Correct but if sum-of-all-histories is correct you would get rid of all the histories that does not lead to the outcome which would yield that this is actually the result regardless of what possible route you take. So its not a coincidence.

Peace be unto you ;)
 
...
The choice narrows between two until it is only one when you believe that there is a reason to the universe and everything in it- for example if I ask the question : Why does the universe exist? Why does it continue to exist? Why did it lead to life? Why do these laws exist? Why do these laws allow life?--- The only answer to a 'why' can only be presented by something that has said that there is a reason for these things- the only choice between the two that can answer these question is God. Because an infinite beginning does not answer any of those 'whys'- Perhaps why is the wrong question? Maybe there is no reason for any of it- but that is hard to believe that everything happened to be a coincidence- again both without evidence but with a choice- If I choose that none of this is a coincidence that God becomes the only solution.
I does seem that there is some intention to things but I suggest to you that the impression we get of intention is the result of our wonderful evolved brains that put order and intention into what we see around us.

Actually once one accepts that God is the answer then to ascribe him his characteristics is not too difficult. I've gone through the process of if a God exist what must he be. And from religion backwards as well. Everything goes back to the question of 'purpose' and how religion fits into that.. Any religion for that matter... and then how each religion does not fit.
No exactly. Not to belittle anyones decision because I agree it is a personal decision that we are all free to make, but God can be found in both of the two alternatives I suggest. The alternatives are that the universe was created by God, or the universe has always existed. I think that we agree that either case involves an infinity; either God has always existed or the universe has always exited. God can be found in both when the personal decision is made. If I choose the alternative that the universe has always existed, I could also decide that in my opinion the intention for the universe to generate and evolve life could also have always existed. In that version, the universe is God and has always existed with the intention that life would always exist through that generative process in mentioned on hospitable planets. In a universe that has always existed there would always have been hospitable planets and so life forms would have always existed as well.
Actually what I was implying by 'fine tuned' is not that it our current universe allows for life to exist, but that these laws- the very fundamental laws that govern the universe allow for it- and the fact that all these laws are in some defined correlation in their interactions and not just random laws that have no defined interaction- this is precisely why science is predictive- why? Because these laws are not random at all.. And as you said if the 'chemistry is right' - chemistry is governed by laws- its not that the chemistry has to be right but the laws have to be right.... Laws that do not interact will lead to nothing- why is that that different laws interact- why is there such a thing as interaction- why is it that these laws interact in defined manner and not in a random manner? For if it were interacting in some random fashion then none of science could be predictive.
I understand. And what I am suggesting is that the laws are natural and have always existed. They could be viewed as the intention of a God that is the universe itself and that has always existed. That view is similar to Pantheism but Pantheists would debate me on the addition of an "intention" that too has always existed, I bet.
Correct but if sum-of-all-histories is correct you would get rid of all the histories that does not lead to the outcome which would yield that this is actually the result regardless of what possible route you take. So its not a coincidence.
My view is that we do not know if it is a coincidence. God could appear to each of us in a dramatic way and make it clear to use beyond any doubt that there is a God. God does not do that and people who find God do so from much more subtle clues, personal clues that lead to a personal decision. And the sum of all of your personal clues does not constitue irrefutable evidence to anyone else. We each have to make our own discovery. I think that it would be a huge coincidence if the real God turned out to be the God of any particular religion.
Peace be unto you ;)
 
What if our universe started out as the output side of a black hole in another universe in another dimension. With matter being reduced to strings (?) within the black hole it would make sense that it would come out that way. The big bang would be nothing more than a big black hole depositing basic matter into a new dimension with nothing in it creating a whole new universe...Who knows....hope we find out soon when the LHC fires up for good..
 
The choice narrows between two until it is only one when you believe that there is a reason to the universe and everything in it- for example if I ask the question : Why does the universe exist? Why does it continue to exist? Why did it lead to life? Why do these laws exist? Why do these laws allow life?--- The only answer to a 'why' can only be presented by something that has said that there is a reason for these things- the only choice between the two that can answer these question is God. Because an infinite beginning does not answer any of those 'whys'- Perhaps why is the wrong question? Maybe there is no reason for any of it- but that is hard to believe that everything happened to be a coincidence- again both without evidence but with a choice- If I choose that none of this is a coincidence that God becomes the only solution.
Actually it doesn't solve any of questions, people just tend to stop asking the question once they come up with an answer of God.

If we're honest we can keep asking the same questions about God: Why does God exist, rather than not exist? Why is God eternal rather than limited? Why does God have the attributes that caused him to create the Universe and people? Why did God create the Universe with this particular set of properties? Why did God cause me, specifically, to exist? We can anthropomorphize and pretend to answer some of these questions (God loves, god desires, etc.) but they don't really get answered.

At some point we have to be satisfied with the non-explanation that certain things just are without being able to attribute a cause to them. God isn't a loophole.

~Raithere
 
Actually it doesn't solve any of questions, people just tend to stop asking the question once they come up with an answer of God.

At some point we have to be satisfied with the non-explanation that certain things just are without being able to attribute a cause to them. God isn't a loophole.

~Raithere

Actually there is a difference.... Universe is not an actual intelligent being that can assign purpose or create things for a reason... God can... and since God is a being himself he can have a purpose of himself.... One can choose its attributes the other can not.

Peace be unto you ;)
 
Actually there is a difference.... Universe is not an actual intelligent being that can assign purpose or create things for a reason...
How would a universe that has always existed not have the same characteristics of a God that you define as having always existed. It could. So why have God separate from the universe?
God can... and since God is a being himself he can have a purpose of himself.... One can choose its attributes the other can not.

Peace be unto you ;)
Why couldn't a universe that has always existed and that had the capabilities that you assign to God, also have purpose and also choose the attributes of the universe that we observe in every respect. So why have God separate from the universe.

If at first there was nothing, not even God, then nothing could ever be ...

Unless something comes from nothing which you and I have ruled out, or unless God created the universe which you have chosen, or unless the universe has always existed in which case God and the universe could be one in the same.
 
How would a universe that has always existed not have the same characteristics of a God that you define as having always existed. It could. So why have God separate from the universe?

So are you saying that everything in the universe is specifically being direct towards a known outcome? And what part of the universe is deciding where what to do next? What about the universe itself- which part of the universe decides why the universe is existing? If you want to argue that the 'universe' meaning everything that is, is God- then at least you've come to the same conclusion that there is still a God. There has to be something in the universe that is deciding why to exist, what to make, and why to make it.... If there is nothing like it then there is no purpose to the universe's existence.

Peace be unto you ;)
 
So are you saying that everything in the universe is specifically being direct towards a known outcome?
No, that is no exactly what I am saying. I am saying that it is equally as possible that there is some direction and intention if there is a separate God who created the universe and if the universe had always existed and was God.
And what part of the universe is deciding where what to do next?
In the universe is God scenario, the part that is deciding what and where to do next infers that the universe as God is playing a deciding role, day by day, individual by individual. I don't see why that would be the case. The universe would provide the conditions and chemistry for life to be generated and evolve at various times and locations across a potentially infinite landscape of arenas similar to our observable universe.
What about the universe itself- which part of the universe decides why the universe is existing?
That becomes a non sequitur if the universe has always existed. Any "why" would be infinite and would have always existed too. No need for God to actively manage the "why" on a day to day basis.
If you want to argue that the 'universe' meaning everything that is, is God- then at least you've come to the same conclusion that there is still a God.
Or at least I've come to the conclusion that the possibility of God is not excluded in the scenario of a universe that has always existed. The possibility of God cannot be excluded but it also cannot be proved in either scenario.
There has to be something in the universe that is deciding why to exist, what to make, and why to make it.... If there is nothing like it then there is no purpose to the universe's existence.
Not true. If the possible existence of God that fits the scenario of a universe that has always existed had intended for the universe to generate and evolve intelligent life, then the intention could be for those intelligent individuals to come to contemplate the existence of God and to make a personal decision. The individuals would be tasked by their own direction to find their own purpose in their lives. It that was the case, then they could have the faith that they would find the right purpose for themselves and they could find thankfulness in the fact that they exist and have the intelligence to seek out their own purpose.
Peace be unto you ;)
 
I think you and I have a difference of opinion in what 'purpose' really is... you are saying that the chemistry and conditions as set by laws define the purpose... but to me it seems the universe is in 'auto pilot' where the laws are constant all the time and will lead to many possibilities.. Nothing is the choosing a direction because laws don't choose they simply act. For me a 'purpose' is an intended choice for something to exist which I do not see in the universe itself.. you may but I don't... that is simply a difference in opinion I guess.

Peace be unto you ;)
 
I think you and I have a difference of opinion in what 'purpose' really is... you are saying that the chemistry and conditions as set by laws define the purpose... but to me it seems the universe is in 'auto pilot' where the laws are constant all the time and will lead to many possibilities.. Nothing is the choosing a direction because laws don't choose they simply act. For me a 'purpose' is an intended choice for something to exist which I do not see in the universe itself.. you may but I don't... that is simply a difference in opinion I guess.

Peace be unto you ;)
Yes, simply a difference of opinion.

May I follow up on one or two points? You are talking about purpose of the universe. You consider the purpose to be intended, as in the purpose of God's creation of the universe. Do I read it right that the outcome of God's purpose is the evolution of intelligence, which then discovers God, and the humans then draw up the details of their religions based on their realization of God's existence? Or are the details of the religions also presented by God?
 
Actually there is a difference.... Universe is not an actual intelligent being that can assign purpose or create things for a reason... God can... and since God is a being himself he can have a purpose of himself.... One can choose its attributes the other can not.
It still doesn't answer the question of why god would exist in the first place. Nor does "because he wanted to" add anything to our knowledge. It's simply a euphemism for "We don't know." No information is gained.

~Raithere
 
Yes, simply a difference of opinion.

May I follow up on one or two points? You are talking about purpose of the universe. You consider the purpose to be intended, as in the purpose of God's creation of the universe. Do I read it right that the outcome of God's purpose is the evolution of intelligence, which then discovers God, and the humans then draw up the details of their religions based on their realization of God's existence? Or are the details of the religions also presented by God?

I think both are the case. In order for someone to find God through their own intellect then it would seem to be that our discussion has been based upon using science and what conclusions it leads us to... what about when science was not as advanced- or practically non-existent- how can one then 'discover' God? So it would seem appropriate that an alternate is already presented by God in the form of religion for example.

Peace be unto you ;)
 
It still doesn't answer the question of why god would exist in the first place. Nor does "because he wanted to" add anything to our knowledge. It's simply a euphemism for "We don't know." No information is gained.

~Raithere

Agreed, but like you said we would have to come to a stop at some point... God is sufficient to deal with the why's of the universe itself.

Peace be unto you ;)
 
I think both are the case. In order for someone to find God through their own intellect then it would seem to be that our discussion has been based upon using science and what conclusions it leads us to... what about when science was not as advanced- or practically non-existent- how can one then 'discover' God? So it would seem appropriate that an alternate is already presented by God in the form of religion for example.

Peace be unto you ;)
Our disagreement is enduring but reconciliation would require you to change :D. My problem with your view is that I think dogma is creeping in, while my view has unusual twists of logic :). Peace be with you too.
 
Our disagreement is enduring but reconciliation would require you to change :D. My problem with your view is that I think dogma is creeping in, while my view has unusual twists of logic :). Peace be with you too.

Well I think it all depends upon understanding.... To me "There is no compulsion in religion" is sufficient to restrain myself from forcing others...

Peace be unto you ;)
 
Can a quantum field exist without space-time?
The concept of space-time gets us into cosmology, that strange place where the science of physics, the abstraction of pure mathematics, and the human construct of philosophy meet in a big muddle.

Does space-time exist, or is it just a component of our model of the universe?

My take on the origin of the known universe is based on entropy and the laws of probability. Entropy specifies that the universe tends toward a state of lower organization, but allows for local exceptions. The simplest definition of life, for example, is a local reversal of entropy.

Well there's no reason those exceptions can't be temporal as well as spatial. If space-time (or whatever you call the place where the universe exists) is infinite, then the laws of probability say that it is not impossible for a state of organization to arise out of a state of complete disorganization (i.e., nothingness) by accident on extremely rare occasions. Particles and the corresponding antiparticles could suddenly appear out of sheer random chance. This would explain the Big Bang, and it could occur once in an infinite space-time continuum. Hell, it could occur more than once. Perhaps there have been other universes that were formed and eventually collapsed into nothingness. Or maybe there are six other universes in existence right now, but they are more than one googolplex light-years from here so we have no way to detect their presence.
Lastly although you are right that I have been taught religion and God- one has to wonder that people came to natural conclusion of God from all along.
That's no big mystery. Jung explains that belief in the supernatural is an archetype, an instinctive belief preprogrammed into our synapses by our DNA. (To use language that is a little more modern than Jung's terminology.) Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosome Adam were genetic bottlenecks in our species at two different times within the past couple of hundred thousand years: every one of us is descended from both of them. If either of them had a random mutation that caused them to believe in gods, it was passed down to us.

Of course many instincts are survival traits, like the urge to flee from a large animal with both eyes in front of its face: Those who didn't have it didn't live long enough to reproduce. It is too early to tell whether religion will prove to be a survival trait. At this point it doesn't look good, since the religionists are, once again, shooting each other and catching the rest of us in the crossfire.
Actually it doesn't solve any of questions, people just tend to stop asking the question once they come up with an answer of God.
Indeed. Religion doesn't answer all our questions. It just demands that we stop asking or risk being labeled heretics. My wife says that religions are always invented by men, because men can't stand to say, "I don't know."
If we're honest we can keep asking the same questions about God: Why does God exist, rather than not exist? Why is God eternal rather than limited? Why does God have the attributes that caused him to create the Universe and people? Why did God create the Universe with this particular set of properties? Why did God cause me, specifically, to exist? We can anthropomorphize and pretend to answer some of these questions (God loves, god desires, etc.) but they don't really get answered.
Heretic! Burn him at the stake!
At some point we have to be satisfied with the non-explanation that certain things just are without being able to attribute a cause to them.
Humans are curious by nature, like all primates. So we are NOT going to settle for such a bullshit answer to such an important question. My response to a philosophy that expects me to make peace with that pathetic statement and then tells me to be a good boy and go chop some wood, is one finger.

Now I understand that "Peace unto you" thing that grates like a particularly annoying parrot. Peace is all I'm gonna get from those guys, because I won't find any answers among them.
 
Ops wrong thread. I don't think we're talking about vampires to burn to the stake are we?

Peace be unto you ;)
 
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Humans are curious by nature, like all primates. So we are NOT going to settle for such a bullshit answer to such an important question. My response to a philosophy that expects me to make peace with that pathetic statement and then tells me to be a good boy and go chop some wood, is one finger.
A bit harsh there but I agree with the sentiment. No, I was thinking more along the lines that there is likely to be a limit to reductionism via a chain of causality. In fact we seem to be seeing this very thing at the quantum level where the notion of cause and effect doesn't really apply, at least not in a conventional sense. I would never advocate the position that humanity should stop looking for answers.

~Raithere
 
BTW would an infinite universe be a perpetual motion machine?

Peace be unto you ;)
 
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