The Naked Truth Would be Nice

[PsychoticEpisode]

Let's say the Bible is correct. That would mean God created a perfect world when He created the Earth and all its trimmings. God Himself categorically states that it was good. All that goodness came to a crashing halt when mankind decided to commit the original sin. I think we can all agree that up until that point, the Earth was dead nuts perfect.

Is anyone going to doubt that God knew all there was to know about good and evil? I don't think so. He had the knowledge and we didn't, the perfect scenario in His mind. Unfortunately we obtained the knowledge when we weren't allowed to have it, thus perfection also ended at original sin.

During the perfect time, man and woman romped around freely in the buff. Not a problem. God knows what is good and is Himself incapable of evil so I don't think it out of line to say that God saw nakedness as something good. It had to be, God's creation was perfect remember.

Of course we all know what happened after original sin. Nudity was shameful. Hard to believe that what God the omniscient perfectionist considered good, was really bad. I don't understand how something declared good, by a God with all the knowledge of good & evil anyone could want, can suddenly become bad.

The paradox is that nudity is both good and bad. How can God declare nakedness good when it was really bad?

 

[Adstar]

The point is not what’s good and what’s bad it's what’s good and bad for beings that where at our level of being. We where good at the level of our being not knowing good or evil.

Take an analogy, wile knowing that an analogy is never perfect.

Someone build a drag car and it is designed to take special but very powerful and volatile fuel it is also designed to take nitro injection creating a super hot but very powerful engine linked to a drive mechanism made of special alloy steel made to withstand the incredible tensile stress that engine develops.

Now take the special fuel and Nitro injection system and connect it to your normal family car. Turn on it's engine and jump on the accelerator. listen as the drive shaft shatters and steel fragments fly in all directions, listen also to the engine disintegrating under the incredible heat and pressure developed by the volatile fuel.

The Family car was designed well for a certain purpose using a certain type of fuel to be driven in a way different from the drag car.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[answers]

Adstar can you write 'were' when you mean 'were' instead of 'where'. Your posts are hard enough to understand with the garbage that fills them already, they don't need more crap to confuse people.

Your right though. It is like as if it was good for a person to eat butter, but then after they got a cholesterol problem, it was now bad for a person to eat butter. Butter is still the same, but it is the person who has changed which has created the difference in classification of what is good and evil for them.

Personally I'm glad people wear clothes, it's bad enough that my overweight next door neighbours walk around without shirts on, I don't want to see their hairy junk on top of that.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

The point is not what’s good and what’s bad it's what’s good and bad for beings that were at our level of being. We were good at the level of our being not knowing good or evil.

Then why is God upset? When original sin was committed, were we not only behaving at our level of being?

So, are we at a higher level of being now because we have the knowledge or are we at a lower level? Careful, because God knows good & evil also.

 

[rjr6]

Let's say the Bible is correct. That would mean God created a perfect world when He created the Earth and all its trimmings. God Himself categorically states that it was good. All that goodness came to a crashing halt when mankind decided to commit the original sin. I think we can all agree that up until that point, the Earth was dead nuts perfect.

Is anyone going to doubt that God knew all there was to know about good and evil? I don't think so. He had the knowledge and we didn't, the perfect scenario in His mind. Unfortunately we obtained the knowledge when we weren't allowed to have it, thus perfection also ended at original sin.

During the perfect time, man and woman romped around freely in the buff. Not a problem. God knows what is good and is Himself incapable of evil so I don't think it out of line to say that God saw nakedness as something good. It had to be, God's creation was perfect remember.

Of course we all know what happened after original sin. Nudity was shameful. Hard to believe that what God the omniscient perfectionist considered good, was really bad. I don't understand how something declared good, by a God with all the knowledge of good & evil anyone could want, can suddenly become bad.

The paradox is that nudity is both good and bad. How can God declare nakedness good when it was really bad?

Pardon my ignorance, but wasn't the sin that Adam and Eve committed actually "shame of their nudity", not the fact that they were nude? I think it would be obvious that they knew they were nude, as they were. The knowledge they received from the serpent was "shame", that was my understanding.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Pardon my ignorance, but wasn't the sin that Adam and Eve committed actually "shame of their nudity", not the fact that they were nude? I think it would be obvious that they knew they were nude, as they were. The knowledge they received from the serpent was "shame", that was my understanding.

Let's see, 2 people, 1 talking serpent and one god traipsing about the Garden. Then God asks A&E who it was that told them they were naked? Hmmm....I have no idea, do you? Odd question from God, don't you think?

Regardless of how they find out being naked is shameful, the fact remains they didn't know until after original sin had transpired. I hear what you're saying, that it isn't shameful in God's eyes and we only think it is because a serpent said so. So what we consider bad isn't really that way because it isn't God's opinion. IOW the knowledge we have of what is good or bad is really what the serpent is telling us. But then that would mean we actually do not possess the knowledge of good & evil.

 

[rjr6]

Let's see, 2 people, 1 talking serpent and one god traipsing about the Garden. Then God asks A&E who it was that told them they were naked? Hmmm....I have no idea, do you? Odd question from God, don't you think?

To see if they had learned to lie, possibly?

Regardless of how they find out being naked is shameful, the fact remains they didn't know until after original sin had transpired. I hear what you're saying, that it isn't shameful in God's eyes and we only think it is because a serpent said so. So what we consider bad isn't really that way because it isn't God's opinion. IOW the knowledge we have of what is good or bad is really what the serpent is telling us. But then that would mean we actually do not possess the knowledge of good & evil.

Not to pick at your post, but it hasn't been established that nudity is bad, has it? The sin is shame, not nudity. discussing "shame" as a sin would be another conversation altogether. At a basic level of understanding that I have shame is a product of sin. So defiance>sin>shame.

Do "we", using your term, possess knowledge of good and evil? Are you asking if all humans have a moral "code" written into their being that is equal? I cannot answer that but the Bible asks us not to judge one another. My sin and your sin may have equal weight from an earthly observer, but God may see things differently.

 

[cosmictraveler]

The paradox is that nudity is both good and bad

But nudity by itself isn't bad, that's what civilization has made it.

 

[answers]

agreed cosmictraveler. Jessica Alba nude, very good. Borat nude....not so much.

 

[lightgigantic]

Let's say the Bible is correct. That would mean God created a perfect world when He created the Earth and all its trimmings. God Himself categorically states that it was good.

eh?
good?
good for what exactly?

All that goodness came to a crashing halt when mankind decided to commit the original sin. I think we can all agree that up until that point, the Earth was dead nuts perfect.

I think you have to back track a bit and explain what is the essence behind perfection. For instance if a person designed a perfect jail, its not necessary that all the inmates are in ecstasy to spend time there.

Is anyone going to doubt that God knew all there was to know about good and evil? I don't think so. He had the knowledge and we didn't, the perfect scenario in His mind. Unfortunately we obtained the knowledge when we weren't allowed to have it, thus perfection also ended at original sin.

seriously?
Is this what you learnt or are you just trying to take the piss out of religion by caricaturing it?

During the perfect time, man and woman romped around freely in the buff. Not a problem. God knows what is good and is Himself incapable of evil so I don't think it out of line to say that God saw nakedness as something good. It had to be, God's creation was perfect remember.

Of course we all know what happened after original sin. Nudity was shameful. Hard to believe that what God the omniscient perfectionist considered good, was really bad. I don't understand how something declared good, by a God with all the knowledge of good & evil anyone could want, can suddenly become bad.

The paradox is that nudity is both good and bad. How can God declare nakedness good when it was really bad?

Taking this with quite a large grain of salt, in essence you are asking why can't a moral be governed by one absolute rule in regards to an action. The reason is that morals aren't. Rather, an action is deemed moral by the context it falls in. For instance we might all agree that it is moral not to kill. But at the same time we recognize the need for an existing armed forces that do have the capacity to do just that ..... infact in could quite easily call into question an army that couldn't or wouldn't do it.
So in regards to nudity (and we'll put aside your historical rendition of theism for the moment) it can also be considered moral and immoral in different circumstances. For instance if you bath with your mother at 2 years old that is one thing. If you bath with your mother naked at 32, it kind of raises eyebrows ......

 

[draqon]

Naked truth would kill us all, if we got to know it.

 

[Randwolf]

eh?
For instance if a person designed a perfect jail, its not necessary that all the inmates are in ecstasy to spend time there.

Gotta love it - the Garden of Eden equated to "the perfect jail".

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Not to pick at your post, but it hasn't been established that nudity is bad, has it? The sin is shame, not nudity. discussing "shame" as a sin would be another conversation altogether. At a basic level of understanding that I have shame is a product of sin. So defiance>sin>shame.

Is there good shame and bad shame?

And the Lord saw that it was good ..... that statement alone would mean nothing unless mankind somehow acquired the knowledge of good & evil. All things religious owe it to original sin. Religion is the price we pay for knowing and God is one cruel guy.

Without original sin LG could bathe with his mother at any age without trepidation.

Why would God say everything is good in the beginning? Does that include the serpents?

 

[rjr6]

Is there good shame and bad shame?

For the sake of this discussion, shame is the result of not following God's word, you either live in it or seek redemption. It is not a matter of good or bad. Ultimately you would live in an enviorment with no need for shame.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

For the sake of this discussion, shame is the result of not following God's word, you either live in it or seek redemption. It is not a matter of good or bad. Ultimately you would live in an enviorment with no need for shame.

It would seem that shame is also discovering that you did not know you were naked. In God parlance, not knowing meant good. I would have to think that knowing you were naked was bad. Not so much the fact you were nude but that you didn't know that knowledge of good & evil meant being naked was a bad thing.

So everything is good if we have no knowledge that it is good, or bad as it seems. This is the way it was meant to be. We would never know if God was good. This is what God wanted I assume. But after original sin we finally realize God is good and unfortunately this is bad.

 

[rjr6]

It would seem that shame is also discovering that you did not know you were naked. In God parlance, not knowing meant good. I would have to think that knowing you were naked was bad. Not so much the fact you were nude but that you didn't know that knowledge of good & evil meant being naked was a bad thing.

So everything is good if we have no knowledge that it is good, or bad as it seems. This is the way it was meant to be. We would never know if God was good. This is what God wanted I assume. But after original sin we finally realize God is good and unfortunately this is bad.

The sin might be in the way Adam and Eve dealt with their sin, compounded it so to speak, by using shame as a coping mechanism, allowed for by the serpent.

 

[rjr6]

Kinda like, ( serpent): pssst! Hey don't listen to that old coot! Eat your apple, be naked with shame and you don't have to kiss his arse anymore!

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Kinda like, ( serpent): pssst! Hey don't listen to that old coot! Eat your apple, be naked with shame and you don't have to kiss his arse anymore!

Except they wouldn't know what shame is or if talking serpents were unusual.

 

[lightgigantic]

Gotta love it - the Garden of Eden equated to "the perfect jail".

actually the example was meant illustrate how the word "perfection" only becomes meaningful when it is tagged with a function.

I don't know about you, but if something is mentioned as "perfect", the next question that comes almost instantly is "for what?"

 

[draqon]

I don't know about you, but if something is mentioned as "perfect", the next question that comes almost instantly is "for what?"

In actuality perfection is not unique to any individual, as perfection itself cannot have any irrelevances and disagreements of its own nature.

Perfection can only be one, to all the same. That is why reaching for perfection is the best practice for all of us to do, but never reaching it at the same time. For if we reach perfection, we would cease to be.