The irrelevance of God

Balerion said:
The best bet then would be to offer their own alternative definition of a word, since they are the ones who are deviating from standard definitions. Rather than, say, asking others to define the terms without offering definitions of their own. That would be the time-saver, especially since the theists around here are the ones who tend to muddy the language.
Click to expand...
I would say non-theists have more of a problem on this forum lumping all possible definitions of religious ideas together, and not taking into account that the theist they may be complaining about could be talking about a different idea - I can tell you right now there is no commonly accepted definition of god in the world.
I don't know what "Not physically of course, but quite possibly very real" means. It appears to be a contradiction.
Click to expand...
Not at all. The patient has a dream about a her husband attacking the cat, and this is taken to represent the patient's very real fear of some very real situation, or possible one, in the person's life.
I am not qualified to judge whether god is physically (metaphysically?) real, but I Have no problem at all saying God is real. Where or what God is exactly is quite difficult to understand, and under the circumstances of god's apparent reticence to be photographed etc., I don't feel responsible to know, so I choose to think about God in a way that seems logical to me, and I don't expect other people to see it the same way. I do know my position is intellectually safe and valid, much more so than someone who is saying, "there is no god, flat out," thus insisting on one definition, or someone that thinks they can prove god created the universe in seven days because they feel amazed when they look up at the sky. Certain versions of god may be illogical or impossible, but so what? So is half of every idea humans hold to, secular, scientific, religious, et al. We can reject those ideas without throwing the baby out with the water.

If a dream is merely a dream, why can't his experience with "God" be something similar?
Click to expand...
it could be. Perhaps neither you, nor I, nor he, is qualified to judge that right now. Even so, as implied, a dream can contain more important information than hundreds of physically real experiences. Miley Cyrus is (physically) real, and less valid as a logical discussion point than any dream I have had that I can remember.
 
arfa brane said:
When you "see" God, the experience will not be what you expected. It will, however, be quite familiar.

At least, that's my experience, and although I shouldn't speak for anyone else, I do know others who have said it's much the same for them.

So now what? Now I expect a certain amount of ridicule, that's what. But, remember, I don't care.
Click to expand...

Ridicule? No, you are totally dishonest when you claim you have seen God. You are not special. If you see God, then we all can see God.
 
(Q) said:
If you see God, then we all can see God.
Click to expand...

(Q)! This is the best thing you've posted, and has been on my mind throughout this thread. Why is God if he exists, apparent to only some and not all?
 
cole grey said:
I would say non-theists have more of a problem on this forum lumping all possible definitions of religious ideas together, and not taking into account that the theist they may be complaining about could be talking about a different idea
Click to expand...

You've got it entirely backwards. Non-theists aren't the ones bogged down in any particular concept of God. (You're also conflating "definition" and "concept" here)

At every opportunity, we ask for clarification. It is the theist who demurs. Go on, look at Jan Ardena's gymnastics when asked how he defines "concept" or how defines "God" itself. He doesn't attempt to clarify; instead he runs. Same goes for arfa, who has had a half-dozen posts to answer a very simple question, and he's failed at every opportunity.

- I can tell you right now there is no commonly accepted definition of god in the world.
Click to expand...

Of course there is. Otherwise the word wouldn't exist, or would be of no use. That isn't to say there aren't different concepts of God, but the term itself at the very least has a general meaning that could be applied to virtually any concept therein, and is virtually always employed in such a way. I mean, what do you think Jan or arfa means by "God?" Sure, they may conceptualize it differently--Jan believes in a version of Yahweh, while arfa might believe as Seattle suggested, in a God-as-consciousness pseudo-pantheistic deity. But in either case, they're talking about the ultimate power, the supreme being, the creator of the universe.

Not at all. The patient has a dream about a her husband attacking the cat, and this is taken to represent the patient's very real fear of some very real situation, or possible one, in the person's life.
Click to expand...

But then it isn't a real event, it's simply an imagining of the event triggered by fear. Which is the whole point of what I'm saying.

I am not qualified to judge whether god is physically (metaphysically?) real, but I Have no problem at all saying God is real.
Click to expand...

See, this is what I'm talking about. You've decided to change the definition of the word "real" to suit you in this discussion. You can't say you don't know if God is real and then say he's real. That is a contradiction. And this isn't merely a differing of opinions of terms--this is you misusing a word to suit your own purposes. (ie to be able to say that God is real without being held accountable to support that claim) It's transparently superficial, and of no use whatsoever to the conversation. In fact, it brings the conversation to a dead stop, because where is there to go when one party decides to rewrite the dictionary?

Where or what God is exactly is quite difficult to understand,
Click to expand...

It really isn't. God is a myth invented in times when man did not have the tools to find satisfactory explanations for the world around him. The very idea of godhood itself is probably a myth, born from man's tendency to idolize.

and under the circumstances of god's apparent reticence to be photographed etc., I don't feel responsible to know, so I choose to think about God in a way that seems logical to me, and I don't expect other people to see it the same way.
Click to expand...

And what way would that be?

Why is it so bloody hard to get you quasi-theists to come out of your shells?

I do know my position is intellectually safe and valid, much more so than someone who is saying, "there is no god, flat out," thus insisting on one definition, or someone that thinks they can prove god created the universe in seven days because they feel amazed when they look up at the sky.
Click to expand...

It certainly is not. You rely on an incorrect definition of the word "real," so you can comfort yourself by saying "God is real."

Certain versions of god may be illogical or impossible, but so what? So is half of every idea humans hold to, secular, scientific, religious, et al. We can reject those ideas without throwing the baby out with the water.
Click to expand...

And you determine the baby to be the concept of God? I don't. I see God as a human invention. I don't see his fingerprints anywhere. I see a reality that exists as if he doesn't.

it could be. Perhaps neither you, nor I, nor he, is qualified to judge that right now.
Click to expand...

Nonsense. If he had a dream about God, there's nothing in Freud or Jung that supports his acceptance of this as divine premonition. Science has shredded every notion of God any society before us has ever created, and those who want to reconcile their faith today with modern science must push their deity back beyond the boundary of current scientific interest, let alone ability. And sure, you can have your null space. Enjoy it. But don't tell me that I'm not qualified to determine who is delusional and who isn't. The question of the existence of God isn't exactly up in the air.

Even so, as implied, a dream can contain more important information than hundreds of physically real experiences.
Click to expand...

Irrelevant to the topic. Unless you're implying that a dream about God means God is real, in which case you're absolutely wrong.
 
My answer, in case you missed it, is the thing that makes me "think" or recognise what I am experiencing all the time, is same thing that "convinced" me at an earlier time
Click to expand...

If something is making you think, then how are you really thinking? Your thoughts might as well be just robotic actions. I'm sure you mean "enable" here, but then what distinguishes that alleged mystical energy source from the food you ate for breakfast, the coffee you drank, and the air you are breathing? I'm not seeing the need to posit a magical person making you do that. Does God make you fart too? :)
 
Last edited:
God: the being who has been defined (or better UNdefined) into complete irrelevance. The being disincarnated of all previously discounted qualities and left to float about in spaceless eternity as a metaphysical property. I can't think of a less relevant thing to be than a indefinable "something" that exists beyond all spacetime. I think my op has rather tidily proven itself dead-on. God IS dead, and now haunts the starry backrooms of cosmic space and the dark gaps of intraneural webs as a mere ghost of himself.
 
wynn said:
Until we learn to read eachother's minds, we'll have to clarify definitions first.
Click to expand...

Until you figure out how to use a dictionary, you'll never understand the meaning of words and how to communicate effectively.
 
wegs said:
(Q)! This is the best thing you've posted, and has been on my mind throughout this thread. Why is God if he exists, apparent to only some and not all?
Click to expand...


God isn't apparent to anyone, He is only a notion to those who really, really, really want to believe He is apparent. If God was apparent, by definition, He would be apparent to us all.

Folks who make the claim God is apparent to them are either lying or have mental disorders. They believe they have special powers endowed to them by the Holy Spirit or some other boogieman, and will state some excuse about God not wanting to be apparent to others, as if they would know what a God would think and behave.
 
Balerion said:
Which is the very thing you have yet to share with us. What convinced you at an earlier time that your experiences were A) With God, and B) Real?
Click to expand...
What convinced me was that I didn't need to rationalise the experience. Doubting it is like doubting you can see or hear.
Again, that isn't an answer to the questions I've asked you. I didn't ask "how real is it," I asked what made you know it was real in the first place.
Click to expand...
What makes you know you really can see? That's what you're asking me, so what is it? Stop talking around the subject and just tell me what it is.
This is growing tiresome. Why not just share with me what you came up with? Why must I pull teeth to get the answer out of you?
Click to expand...
You seem to think that "the answer" is something I can tell you in words. You have an expectation that this is the only possibility.
So dreams, then, are real events to you? You don't question if you rode that hippo to the bank robbery, you simply accept that it happened?
Click to expand...
Can you tell the difference between dreaming and being awake? Do you think I said I can't? Are you being ridiculous because that's all you have?
 
(Q) said:
Ridicule? No, you are totally dishonest when you claim you have seen God.
Click to expand...
How do you know? You can't possibly know what I have or haven't seen, stop being so bloody ignorant.
You are not special. If you see God, then we all can see God.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. If I can see and hear, I have no reason to doubt anyone else who claims they can too.
 
arfa brane said:
How do you know? You can't possibly know what I have or haven't seen
Click to expand...

You certainly haven't seen God, that is a fact. If you can see God, we can all see God. Hence, you are either lying or have a mental disorder.

If I can see and hear, I have no reason to doubt anyone else who claims they can too.
Click to expand...

No, you are not special, you are human like the rest of us. Stop pretending, it is so childish to do so.
 
Balerion said:
Science has shredded every notion of God any society before us has ever created
Click to expand...
Maybe in your mind. However, science remains unable to look inside that mind, or any other mind.
Therefore science has not "shredded" any notion of God in the slightest. You only claim it has because you want to believe it, or you need to.
 
(Q) said:
No, you have not seen God as what you believe God to be. Gods have never been shown to exist, none of them.
Click to expand...
I don't have to believe God is anything that corresponds to an idea. In particular I don't have to believe what you think God is.
I exist, and I don't need to go around believing I do. I recognise that any idea I may have about my own existence is irrelevant, because my existence is not in doubt, for me at least.
Because, Gods have never been shown to exist. Duh.
Click to expand...
But you exist.
Why do you believe that your existence can't be evidence that God exists? What do you think the problem is with that belief, or with any belief, particularly a belief which is based on absence of evidence, such as the one you subscribe to?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top