Your belief and faith along with your works allows you to grow closer to Christ. The crucifixion is the means that those sins are forgiven, but they are not forgiven until they says "yes" to Christ's offer of forgiveness. Also, we are not saved once and always saved.
The Inerrant Bible?
- Thread starter §outh§tar
- Start date
Assalaam-O-Alaikum-wahrahmatullahi-wah-barakatuhu
This is to Okinrus, and to all the other Christian brothers on this board.
I have something to say about this issue.
"Nevertheless, He (God), [being] full of compassion, forgave [their] iniquity, and destroyed [them] not: yea, many a time turned He His anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. For He remembered that they [were but] flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again."
Psalm 78:38-39
We see in the above verse that God can forgive the sins of people WITHOUT ANY SACRIFICE. God has the power to forgive without sacifice!!!. God DIDN'T need to SACRIFICE to save us.
Well, how then does God Almighty forgive our sins? Is He able to simply say "you are forgiven" to those who turn to Him in repentance or must He first sacrifice a sinless individual before He can do this? To get the answer let us read the Bible:
"It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin."
Isaiah 55:7
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah."
Psalm 32:5
"By mercy and truth iniquity is purged..."
Proverbs 16:6
"But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin."
Ezekiel 18:21-30
"To do righteousness and justice [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice."
Proverbs 21:3
"For I (God) desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."
Hosea 6:6
"Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, [and] bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, [or] with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn [for] my transgression, the fruit of my body [for] the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"
Micah 6:6-8
"To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; [it is] iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them]. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."
Isaiah 1:11-18
As we can see clearly God WANT's people to REPENT not SACRIFICE.
One interesting question which comes out this is, Why did God sacrifice, when he DOESN'T want people to sacrifice?
God IS NOT in the need of Sacrifice to forgive. He forgives when a person repents. Assuredly God is the most Merciful.
And if you were to look at this closely you would recognize that this is what Islam preaches. Repent!
You seem to think that you must believe in Jesus as a God, or believe in him as a mediator. But my friend you are utterly wrong!
Luke 10
25. On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26. "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27. He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "
28. "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
Notice that the man's question was straight forward: "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" No other question can be more straight forward than this!
Notice how Jesus answered this straight forward question: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart......and love your neighbor as yourself......Do this and you will live."
Notice that Jesus didn't talk about any trinity concept, nor did he say to the man that he must accept Jesus as a mediator between him and GOD Almighty to win eternal life. No Jesus was pretty clear and straight forward here: LOVE GOD ALMIGHTY AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORS AS YOURSELF. That is simply all there is to it to win eternal life in Jesus' standards.
My friend I am not a Christian, but a Muslim. I fit the "standard" which Jesus told to the person to gain eternal life.
May God guide you to the Rightious Path, and Have his Blessing upon you and everyone else.
Peace be unto you
This is to Okinrus, and to all the other Christian brothers on this board.
I have something to say about this issue.
"Nevertheless, He (God), [being] full of compassion, forgave [their] iniquity, and destroyed [them] not: yea, many a time turned He His anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. For He remembered that they [were but] flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again."
Psalm 78:38-39
We see in the above verse that God can forgive the sins of people WITHOUT ANY SACRIFICE. God has the power to forgive without sacifice!!!. God DIDN'T need to SACRIFICE to save us.
Well, how then does God Almighty forgive our sins? Is He able to simply say "you are forgiven" to those who turn to Him in repentance or must He first sacrifice a sinless individual before He can do this? To get the answer let us read the Bible:
"It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin."
Isaiah 55:7
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah."
Psalm 32:5
"By mercy and truth iniquity is purged..."
Proverbs 16:6
"But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin."
Ezekiel 18:21-30
"To do righteousness and justice [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice."
Proverbs 21:3
"For I (God) desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."
Hosea 6:6
"Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, [and] bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, [or] with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn [for] my transgression, the fruit of my body [for] the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"
Micah 6:6-8
"To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; [it is] iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them]. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."
Isaiah 1:11-18
As we can see clearly God WANT's people to REPENT not SACRIFICE.
One interesting question which comes out this is, Why did God sacrifice, when he DOESN'T want people to sacrifice?
God IS NOT in the need of Sacrifice to forgive. He forgives when a person repents. Assuredly God is the most Merciful.
And if you were to look at this closely you would recognize that this is what Islam preaches. Repent!
You seem to think that you must believe in Jesus as a God, or believe in him as a mediator. But my friend you are utterly wrong!
Luke 10
25. On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26. "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27. He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "
28. "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
Notice that the man's question was straight forward: "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" No other question can be more straight forward than this!
Notice how Jesus answered this straight forward question: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart......and love your neighbor as yourself......Do this and you will live."
Notice that Jesus didn't talk about any trinity concept, nor did he say to the man that he must accept Jesus as a mediator between him and GOD Almighty to win eternal life. No Jesus was pretty clear and straight forward here: LOVE GOD ALMIGHTY AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORS AS YOURSELF. That is simply all there is to it to win eternal life in Jesus' standards.
My friend I am not a Christian, but a Muslim. I fit the "standard" which Jesus told to the person to gain eternal life.
May God guide you to the Rightious Path, and Have his Blessing upon you and everyone else.
Peace be unto you
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786, the sacrifice made is not always evident, but no one went to heaven until Christ died. So the forgiveness of the patriachs sins was a "promise" but it was a promise which had not been fullfilled until Christ.
786, I know that you are muslim because the number '7', '8', and '6' have a special meaning in the Qur'an?
786, I know that you are muslim because the number '7', '8', and '6' have a special meaning in the Qur'an?
okinrus said:
You are contradicting yourself please clarify. First you say the crucifixion is the means of forgiving sins, then you say accepting Christ is the means of forgiving sins. So which is it?
1 Timothy
15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.
Obviously, this verse disagrees with you. It says those who believe on him recieve eternal life, meaning they are saved eternally.
I need not quote John 3:16, which clearly says that whoever believes in Him will NOT perish. As opposed to MAY not perish. The assurance is given clearly.
okinrus said:
I don't know what your response is answering. I just showed you that God does not need to sacrifice to forgive sins. There was NO need for any sacrifice. If there was no need to sacrifice then why did God sacrifice Jesus? Use some common sense.
This is another question.
Can you support that God REQUIRED a SACRIFICE to forgive our SINS? I can support he didn't need any sacrifices. But you people claim that God sacrificed Jesus for our sins, right? Then support you claim, by proving that God required a sacrifice to forgive our sins.
I REPEAT GOD IS IN NO NEED FOR SACRIFICES INORDER FOR HIM TO FORGIVE SINS.
Peace be unto you
786
Because God is just He requires atonement (sacrifice) when you sin.
Imagine, someone came home and raped your 2 month old daughter. And God said He forgives the rapist. Of course you would be outraged and say He is certainly no just God because He just let the man go without punishment. Well you are that man. If God were to simply forgive you of your sins without atonement, then how can He be a God of justice?
Because God is just He requires atonement (sacrifice) when you sin.
Imagine, someone came home and raped your 2 month old daughter. And God said He forgives the rapist. Of course you would be outraged and say He is certainly no just God because He just let the man go without punishment. Well you are that man. If God were to simply forgive you of your sins without atonement, then how can He be a God of justice?
§outh§tar said:
Islam tells us how this is dealt with. I will post on the position of Islam on issues like these later.
But first I want to know how Just your God is? This question is reffering to the passage I am about to state.
I will use your own situation you presented me. Here goes.
"Imagine, someone came home and raped your 2 month old daughter. And God said He forgives the rapist. Of course you would be outraged and say He is certainly no just God because He just let the man go without punishment. Well you are that man. If God were to simply forgive you of your sins without atonement, then how can He be a God of justice?"
This is what you said. Now my question follows.
*Note-This is through the point of view through the Christain faith
If my daughter was raped. Do I want the revenge from a sinless person, like Jesus. Or do I want the revenge from the rapist?
If the rapist goes to the Church and confesses, then God forgives. Then is that God Just? Is a God Just who makes Jesus pay for someone else's sin?
Is that God's justice? I would want to punish the rapist not Jesus, then is God Just, to forgive the rapist because Jesus took care of it?
I don't want Jesus to pay, I want the rapist to pay for his actions. Is God Just?
Please answer the questions above.
Let me give you an analogy.
The trial is set for a rape case. Like the one you gave me. The Judge is God. And I am asking the Judge to punish the rapist. The Judge forgives that rapist and punishes a sinless person, Jesus. What kind of Justice is this?
Ok Jesus goes to jail for the crimes that rapist did. Is that Justice? And anyways did I recieve Justice? I wanted the rapist to pay, but he was forgived. Did I recieve any Justice?
Another trial happens after this. This case is about a murder of a child. The family wants the murderer to pay for his crime. The Judge (God) forgives the murder. And lengthens the jail time for Jesus, who was already in jail. So now Jesus is paying for both of them. Now I ask you is that Justice? Is that a God who is Just? Did the family who's child died recieve Justice? What did the family had to do with Jesus? They wanted the murderer to pay for his crimes. But he was forgiven. Is that Justice? I ask you is that a Just God?
*Note-this is talking from the Bible point. I will talk about Islam's position, later on. I am collecting some hadiths, and verses to support my claim.
I expect you to answer the questions above. The questions are almost all same but I want you to answer all of them seperately. And please be truthful when answering.
Peace be unto you
786, I don't hold believe in the historical events concerning the crucifixion as a pretence for true repentence. But it did, nevertheless, occurred, and our God shows his true and perfect love through the crucifixion.
786, your belief concerning temporary punishment in Hell is not taught by most muslims. Except for all sins eventually being against God, I'm not aware of any Qur'anic verse that specifically denies this from happening. Your belief is similar to some Orthodox Christians, who believe some will eventually go to heaven after spending a limit amount of time in hell. Catholics also believe in purgatory, a different place than Hell but the same theological principle. The difference, however, is that we separate forgiveness from temporal punishment. Someone can be punished, while at the same time forgiven.
786, your belief concerning temporary punishment in Hell is not taught by most muslims. Except for all sins eventually being against God, I'm not aware of any Qur'anic verse that specifically denies this from happening. Your belief is similar to some Orthodox Christians, who believe some will eventually go to heaven after spending a limit amount of time in hell. Catholics also believe in purgatory, a different place than Hell but the same theological principle. The difference, however, is that we separate forgiveness from temporal punishment. Someone can be punished, while at the same time forgiven.
You failed to answer my questions. Please answer my questions according to the situations I presented. And please be truthful.
And the part about My beliefs. I will post later on. As I have said in the previous posts.
Please answer the questions.
Peace be unto you
And the part about My beliefs. I will post later on. As I have said in the previous posts.
Please answer the questions.
Peace be unto you
786 said:Islam tells us how this is dealt with. I will post on the position of Islam on issues like these later.
But first I want to know how Just your God is? This question is reffering to the passage I am about to state.
I will use your own situation you presented me. Here goes.
"Imagine, someone came home and raped your 2 month old daughter. And God said He forgives the rapist. Of course you would be outraged and say He is certainly no just God because He just let the man go without punishment. Well you are that man. If God were to simply forgive you of your sins without atonement, then how can He be a God of justice?"
This is what you said. Now my question follows.
*Note-This is through the point of view through the Christain faith
If my daughter was raped. Do I want the revenge from a sinless person, like Jesus. Or do I want the revenge from the rapist?
If the rapist goes to the Church and confesses, then God forgives. Then is that God Just? Is a God Just who makes Jesus pay for someone else's sin?
Is that God's justice? I would want to punish the rapist not Jesus, then is God Just, to forgive the rapist because Jesus took care of it?
I don't want Jesus to pay, I want the rapist to pay for his actions. Is God Just?
Please answer the questions above.
Let me give you an analogy.
The trial is set for a rape case. Like the one you gave me. The Judge is God. And I am asking the Judge to punish the rapist. The Judge forgives that rapist and punishes a sinless person, Jesus. What kind of Justice is this?
Ok Jesus goes to jail for the crimes that rapist did. Is that Justice? And anyways did I recieve Justice? I wanted the rapist to pay, but he was forgived. Did I recieve any Justice?
Another trial happens after this. This case is about a murder of a child. The family wants the murderer to pay for his crime. The Judge (God) forgives the murder. And lengthens the jail time for Jesus, who was already in jail. So now Jesus is paying for both of them. Now I ask you is that Justice? Is that a God who is Just? Did the family who's child died recieve Justice? What did the family had to do with Jesus? They wanted the murderer to pay for his crimes. But he was forgiven. Is that Justice? I ask you is that a Just God?
*Note-this is talking from the Bible point. I will talk about Islam's position, later on. I am collecting some hadiths, and verses to support my claim.
I expect you to answer the questions above. The questions are almost all same but I want you to answer all of them seperately. And please be truthful when answering.
Peace be unto you
I cannot answer the questions as you would want me to because your knowledge of the whole point of the death of the cross is skewed.
If you truly say that it is not just for God to punish the sinless Man for the wickeed deeds of the sinful, then you are condemned.
Because you have also at one time or another, transgressed before God, then there is logically no reason that He should forgive you without punishing you. Therefore by forgiving you, it would not be justice to God either (according to your analogy) because He just let you go scot-free. Therefore there has to be some kind of punishment for your sin.
If you do not accept the atonement of Jesus, then you will have to bear the punishment of God by yourself. This, of course, is the point of hell.
Therefore, in your analogy: the family by demanding punishment for the murder's deeds want justice correct? Well, as God is the judge, would it be just to punish the murderer for his crime and let the family members walk away as if they themselves had never transgressed before? Of course not. God will not punish some sinners and let other sinners walk away without an atonement.
§outh§tar said:
I expected that you will not answer. But I will answer your questions.
Without any doubt, I have transgressed many times, God knows best. I ask his forgiveness. I say sorry to him. I don't say whatever he is going to forgive me. That is not the case. Assuredly God is the the Most Gracious, Most Merciful. God forgives with his own CHOICE. NO ONE forces him to forgive. It is his sole choice to forgive or not.
It should be the choice of the family if they want to forgive the person or make him pay.
When I talk about how Islam deals with this, everything should be clear. You will see that God is just. But you haven't cleared anything in the support of Christianity.
I don't get your logic.
Once you said that "repent" is giving human attributes to God. Well "revenge" is also a human attribute, it does not have to apply to God. God forgives without any price.
First I want to know your answer to one question.
Does God need sacrifice to forgive someone? Or can he do it without any sacrifice?
Peace be unto you
Yes but if God forgave you without an atonement for killing/murdering/lying simply by "choice" as you say, then how would that make Him any more just than the judge who simply excuses the criminal without any punishment? Both are the same "forgives without any price" and as you can see the latter is not at all just and therefore it is foolish to say that the former is just.
To answer you:
God does not "need" anything firstly.
See 1 Samuel 15:22 about sacrifices.
God requires atonement not sacrifice. This, on earth, is in the form of blood. Hence sacrificing sheep and so on earlier in the OT before Jesus paid the ultimate price with His blood.
As for your first question. My transgressions were DIRECTLY against GOD, no one else is involved. Thus God has the FULL right to forgive me if he CHOOSES to. But when one kills someone else. Then the person who got killed is involved. It is a crime against another person, aswell as against God. God may forgive him, but the person killed has the RIGHT to Judge him aswell as God. This is justice.
As for Jesus paying the ultimate price by his "blood". The answer follows:
"Nevertheless, He (God), [being] full of compassion, forgave [their] iniquity, and destroyed [them] not: yea, many a time turned He His anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. For He remembered that they [were but] flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again."
Psalm 78:38-39
In the above verse, God FORGAVE without any atonement. What is the reason for that? The answer is that because he knows that we are but "flesh". He knows that we sin.
"For I (God) desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."
Hosea 6:6
God says HIMSELF that he DOESN'T want sacrifice, but want you to have KNOWLEDGE of God. Then why do you defy the very word of God. God doesn't want any sacrifice, can't you understand this simple concept. Then how can he take Jesus as the sacrifice for the whole mankind?
"But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin."
Ezekiel 18:21-30
Look at the above verse. God says "Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be you ruin." What does this statement mean?
"To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; [it is] iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them]. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."
Isaiah 1:11-18
Look at the above verse. What do you see. Does he want sacrifice or people to do rightiousness? This is what God says "And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood." What is this? Why will God not hear their prayers? Because they are "hands are full of blood."
You said-"This, on earth, is in the form of blood. Hence sacrificing sheep and so on earlier in the OT before Jesus paid the ultimate price with His blood."
I'm quoting you "Jesus paid the ultimate price with His blood". What logic is this. Look at the above verse. God will not hear their prayers because their hands are full of "blood". What "blood" is this refering to. The sacrifices they made of animals and other stuff. You think we are saved because Jesus paid the price by his "blood". God doesn't want blood he wants you to repent and follow the path of the rightiouness.
This is mockery of logic.
"It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin."
What is God saying in the above verse. "return every man from his evil way" or sacrifice so your sins be forgiven?
God is clear in what he wants people to do. REPENT not SACRIFICE nor ATONEMENT nor THE BLOOD OF THE SINLESS.
Peace be unto you
As for Jesus paying the ultimate price by his "blood". The answer follows:
"Nevertheless, He (God), [being] full of compassion, forgave [their] iniquity, and destroyed [them] not: yea, many a time turned He His anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. For He remembered that they [were but] flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again."
Psalm 78:38-39
In the above verse, God FORGAVE without any atonement. What is the reason for that? The answer is that because he knows that we are but "flesh". He knows that we sin.
"For I (God) desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."
Hosea 6:6
God says HIMSELF that he DOESN'T want sacrifice, but want you to have KNOWLEDGE of God. Then why do you defy the very word of God. God doesn't want any sacrifice, can't you understand this simple concept. Then how can he take Jesus as the sacrifice for the whole mankind?
"But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin."
Ezekiel 18:21-30
Look at the above verse. God says "Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be you ruin." What does this statement mean?
"To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; [it is] iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them]. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."
Isaiah 1:11-18
Look at the above verse. What do you see. Does he want sacrifice or people to do rightiousness? This is what God says "And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood." What is this? Why will God not hear their prayers? Because they are "hands are full of blood."
You said-"This, on earth, is in the form of blood. Hence sacrificing sheep and so on earlier in the OT before Jesus paid the ultimate price with His blood."
I'm quoting you "Jesus paid the ultimate price with His blood". What logic is this. Look at the above verse. God will not hear their prayers because their hands are full of "blood". What "blood" is this refering to. The sacrifices they made of animals and other stuff. You think we are saved because Jesus paid the price by his "blood". God doesn't want blood he wants you to repent and follow the path of the rightiouness.
This is mockery of logic.
"It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin."
What is God saying in the above verse. "return every man from his evil way" or sacrifice so your sins be forgiven?
God is clear in what he wants people to do. REPENT not SACRIFICE nor ATONEMENT nor THE BLOOD OF THE SINLESS.
Peace be unto you
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That is hardly the most ambiguous passage in the Bible. In fact it is one of the most important ones as far as modern Christian theology is concerned, since it is this that frees Christians from following strict Orthodox Jewish ritual and laws - dietary laws, hygiene laws, circumcision, the abomination of homosexuality, etc.§outh§tar said:
The one I don't get is this one from Isaiah:
Thus it is, say the Christians, that the birth of Jesus Christ as the Messiah sent by God to redeem our sins was predicted seven and a half centuries before it happened, by the prophet Isaiah.Isaiah 7:14 (NAS) said:
Now let's look at the whole chapter:
This does not make the remotest sense to me. Neither does it seem to be discussing the freeing of either Jewry or humanity generally from the burden of its sin. It certainly does not seem to be talking about a remote and distant future, but very definitely about an immediate future - this child of which he speaks (potentially one of Isaiah's own) is on the point of being born, and before the child is mature enough to even understand the difference between good and evil, the lands of the competing kings being talked about will be swept away. If anyone can give me even the smallest connection between this (connecting Egypt, Assyria and other items in the region such as the Euphrates River) and the birth in Southern Judaea of a carpenter's son, seven and one half centuries later (when the great power is Rome), then maybe I'll take more notice of the Bible as a prophetic document.
Of course, it's Matthew himself (a Jew writing about Jesus to Jews) that spotted that Isaiah 7:14, proving that cherry-picking of the scriptures is hardly a new practice.
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Jenyar said:
By repentence, with sincerity. Repentence is something we do. Who said that God considers people innocent of sin? No one is innocent of sin. Everyone sins, but God forgives. You think God only knows your word? No, God also knows you heart, you mind. So if you are sincere, and you reprent then God forgives you if it is his will.
BTW you didn't answer my questions which I have asked in my previous post.
Peace be unto you
An analogy from CARM
Let's say I am at your house or apartment with my wife. We are talking about church and in my zeal I accidentally knock over your lamp. Now, this lamp is special. A dear friend gave it to you and it has great sentimental value, and besides, you need a light in your room. After a moment or two you realize that the damage is done and decide to forgive. You say to me, "That is alright, Matt. I forgive you for breaking the lamp, but give me ten dollars."
Is asking for ten dollars after you've just forgiven me, true forgiveness? Certainly not! When God forgives our sins, He says He will remember them no more (Jer. 31:34). Forgive and forget are similar in spelling and similar in meaning. If you forgive me can you demand payment from the one forgiven? No, because a forgiven debt does not exist.
Let's say that instead of asking me for ten dollars you turn to my wife and say, "Matt broke my lamp. You give me ten dollars for it."
I ask you again. Is that true forgiveness? No. You are simply transferring the debt to someone who was not involved in the original offense.
But, we have a problem. The lamp needs to be replaced. In true forgiveness, then, who pays for its replacement? (Think about this a bit before you go on to read the answer.) Who pays? You do! You're the only one left. Remember, if you've forgiven me the debt, how can you demand payment?
Is asking for ten dollars after you've just forgiven me, true forgiveness? Certainly not! When God forgives our sins, He says He will remember them no more (Jer. 31:34). Forgive and forget are similar in spelling and similar in meaning. If you forgive me can you demand payment from the one forgiven? No, because a forgiven debt does not exist.
Let's say that instead of asking me for ten dollars you turn to my wife and say, "Matt broke my lamp. You give me ten dollars for it."
I ask you again. Is that true forgiveness? No. You are simply transferring the debt to someone who was not involved in the original offense.
But, we have a problem. The lamp needs to be replaced. In true forgiveness, then, who pays for its replacement? (Think about this a bit before you go on to read the answer.) Who pays? You do! You're the only one left. Remember, if you've forgiven me the debt, how can you demand payment?