The Inadequacy of Atheism

[lightgigantic]

The Inadequacy of Atheism


"People in this age eat their food without washing beforehand. Monks break their vows of celibacy. Cows are kept alive only for their milk. Water is scarce. Many people watch the skies, praying for rain. No rain comes. The fields become barren. Suffering from famine and poverty, many attempt to migrate to countries where food is more readily available. People are without joy and pleasure. Many commit suicide. Men of small intelligence are influenced by atheistic doctrines. Family, clan and caste are all meaningless. Men are without virtues, purity or decency." (Visnu Purana 6.1)

This is one of many Vedic predictions for our current age. As one of its many symptoms is always mentioned the prevalence of atheism. Why? Because atheism is the root cause of the pitiful condition of this age. If the knowledge of higher reality is lacking, there is no question of life in harmony with the universal order (dharma). And dharma being neglected, all the above (as well as other) symptoms of decline appear as reaction.

- J. Adbaita

The general principle advocated here is that the universe operates under certain laws and disharmonizing with them is the root cause of all calamity - therefore the greatest calamity is atheism (whether it appears in the guise of organized religion or outright denouncement of the notion of superior maintenance in the universe)

 

[glaucon]

lol

And I suppose eschewing reason for mindless beleif in an invisible being qualifies as adequate....

 

[original]

What do you believe, lightgigantic?

 

[spidergoat]

I could write a book that said the opposite, and it would have the same authority.

 

[lightgigantic]

I could write a book that said the opposite, and it would have the same authority.

I doubt you are capabale of writing a book that can be esteemed in society for thousands of years

 

[lightgigantic]

lol

And I suppose eschewing reason for mindless beleif in an invisible being qualifies as adequate....

you want to take this game up on this thread as well .... well ok

to know that a transcendent God does not exist would require a perfect knowledge of all things (omniscience). To attain this knowledge would require simultaneous access to all parts of the world and beyond (omnipresence). Therefore, to be certain of your claim one would have to possess godlike characteristics. Obviously, mankind's limited nature precludes these special abilities. Your dogmatic claim is therefore unjustifiable. As logician Mortimer Adler has pointed out, the atheist's attempt to prove a universal negative is a self-defeating proposition.

 

[glaucon]

you want to take this game up on this thread as well .... well ok

to know that a transcendent God does not exist would require a perfect knowledge of all things (omniscience). To attain this knowledge would require simultaneous access to all parts of the world and beyond (omnipresence). Therefore, to be certain of your claim one would have to possess godlike characteristics. Obviously, mankind's limited nature precludes these special abilities. Your dogmatic claim is therefore unjustifiable. As logician Mortimer Adler has pointed out, the atheist's attempt to prove a universal negative is a self-defeating proposition.

Interestingly, you fail to see how the quid pro quo falls to you as well.

To assert god exists likewise necessitates the stated requirements.

 

[Xerxes]

Ah yes, the so called 'kali yuga'. Are you reading any Evola currently?

 

[original]

to know that a transcendent God does not exist would require a perfect knowledge of all things (omniscience). To attain this knowledge would require simultaneous access to all parts of the world and beyond (omnipresence). Therefore, to be certain of your claim one would have to possess godlike characteristics. Obviously, mankind's limited nature precludes these special abilities. Your dogmatic claim is therefore unjustifiable. As logician Mortimer Adler has pointed out, the atheist's attempt to prove a universal negative is a self-defeating proposition.

Lightgigantic, do you not see that the same can be said of the existence of God? It is "argumentum ad ignorantiam", or an argument from ignorance. You say that because it is not false, it must be true. Another could say because it is not true, it must be false. Both are wrong. It is neither true or false.

 

[spidergoat]

I doubt you are capabale of writing a book that can be esteemed in society for thousands of years

Throw away holiness and wisdom,
and people will be a hundred times happier.
Throw away morality and justice,
and people will do the right thing.
Throw away industry and profit,
and there won't be any thieves.

Lao Tzu, 600 BC

more:

When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is morality.
When morality is lost, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos.


Therefore the Master says:
I let go of the law,
and people become honest.
I let go of economics,
and people become prosperous.
I let go of religion,
and people become serene.
I let go of all desire for the common good,
and the good becomes common as grass.

 

[RoyLennigan]

you guys are all missing the point.

edit/ except spidergoat, i think he got it.

its not about whether or not there is a god. its about the repercussions of our actions and beliefs.

if we are to believe that we are the ultimate authority in our lives (as atheism will have you believe) then we will act with little respect towards the natural (natural in this case being non-human) processes of the universe. If we do not respect the forces of nature and their indelible relation to our existence, then we will find ourselves in poverty and misery.

I believe what the Visnu Purana is saying here is that atheism argues the point of individual survival and triumph over others. This only leads to overall suffering. We have to realize that we are all dependant upon each other and upon all the intricate and minute aspects of this universe. We have to find a niche to fit into, instead of carelessly throwing things out to make needless space for us and our material handicaps.

 

[glaucon]

you guys are all missing the point.


its not about whether or not there is a god. its about the repercussions of our actions and beliefs.

if we are to believe that we are the ultimate authority in our lives (as atheism will have you believe) then we will act with little respect towards the natural (natural in this case being non-human) processes of the universe.
...

That doesn't follow at all. In fact, in believing one is the ultimate authority in one's life, it would only be rational to treat the non-human environment with respect. As human, we are contingent beings whose existence is reliant upon (at least partially) the environment in which we find ourselves.

 

[Fire]

I'm failing to see the connection with all that is bad with the world and atheism. The negative parts of the modern society can't be blamed (entirely at least) on atheism.

I'll wait for a convincing or at least sensible attempt at connecting societal decline and atheism

 

[RoyLennigan]

That doesn't follow at all. In fact, in believing one is the ultimate authority in one's life, it would only be rational to treat the non-human environment with respect. As human, we are contingent beings whose existence is reliant upon (at least partially) the environment in which we find ourselves.

that's not quite what i meant.

maybe someone such as you would treat the environment with respect, but it obviously doesn't happen with the majority of the world. since we rely upon the environment so heavily, we are more apt (helped by our traditional comfort of having been this way for so long) to take as much as we can from the environment for our own use. Even in our genes there still remains the lingering idea of natural selection--that instinctual feeling that if you don't go for it, then someone else will and when they do, they will be more powerful than you and you will be at their mercy. And so we all race to gather as much as we can because we are scared of no re-balancing god. Our gods are similar to an atheistic belief in that we create them in our image. We create them to support our intents. God is a manifestation of our desire to have power over something. Atheism is a manifestation of our desire to cut lose from the power of others who use a god, but it is still a manifestation of desire--of wanting to be in control.

But it is all futile. we are not in control, nor would we want to be if we really knew what that meant.

the real god is a god of balance, that force which causes everything to eventually return to equilibrium.

 

[spidergoat]

Interesting point, RoyLennigan.

Atheism might not have always meant the same thing. In those days, you might give up religion because you aren't interested in themes of life, the universe, and everything, only commerce and pleasure. Back then, only so called religious people were concerned with such things, they had a monopoly on higher thinking. Today, that is not always the case.

Also, the word dharma is used by Buddhists, and it has no Godly connotations.

 

[RoyLennigan]

I'm failing to see the connection with all that is bad with the world and atheism. The negative parts of the modern society can't be blamed (entirely at least) on atheism.

I'll wait for a convincing or at least sensible attempt at connecting societal decline and atheism

The general principle advocated here is that the universe operates under certain laws and disharmonizing with them is the root cause of all calamity - therefore the greatest calamity is atheism (whether it appears in the guise of organized religion or outright denouncement of the notion of superior maintenance in the universe)

i agree with this. i would infer that 'atheism', as it is used in the Visnu Purana, could be translated as meaning non-belief in the one true god.

so therefore i would include christianity, islam, judaism, and many other mainstreamlined beliefs as being atheist in this sense. atheism would simply be the belief in an idea or philosophy that does not come directly from nature.

 

[glaucon]

that's not quite what i meant.

maybe someone such as you would treat the environment with respect, but it obviously doesn't happen with the majority of the world.

Sadly, this is too true. A narrow-minded society that makes an idol of the individual is responsible for this display of stupidity.

God is a manifestation of our desire to have power over something.

Or to give up power?

Atheism is a manifestation of our desire to cut lose from the power of others who use a god, but it is still a manifestation of desire--of wanting to be in control.

Or a desire to manifest the control we already do have.

the real god is a god of balance, that force which causes everything to eventually return to equilibrium.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[RoyLennigan]

Interesting point, RoyLennigan.

Atheism might not have always meant the same thing. In those days, you might give up religion because you aren't interested in themes of life, the universe, and everything, only commerce and pleasure. Back then, only so called religious people were concerned with such things, they had a monopoly on higher thinking. Today, that is not always the case.

Also, the word dharma is used by Buddhists, and it has no Godly connotations.

yes, this is another catalyst in the problem: the fact that the average person today has much more time on their hands with which to ponder the mysteries of the universe. everyone is their own philosopher now and so they don't need anyone to tell them how things are.

as for the dharma thing, i take the word 'god' and its various definitions very loosely. to me, it is interchangeable with nature, because nature is the only truth we can gleam from the world around us, so what else better is there with which to associate the term?

 

[RoyLennigan]

Sadly, this is too true. A narrow-minded society that makes an idol of the individual is responsible for this display of stupidity.

of course, but there is a flipside to every downside. a narrow-minded society will get nothing done if it bickers with itself. an idol--no matter what kind--causes change, it causes action and action causes experience, experience causes realization, realization causes enlightenment, even if it does take millenia. if we do not take leaps of faith, then we will be stuck in the same place forever. but if we do not question our leaps of faith, then we will tumble through time without knowing which way to go.

Or to give up power?

yes, it could also partly be due to the fact of the common man who does not want to think of universal dilemmas every day. the people who would rather live in false content so that they don't feel extremes. but it is also the fault of those who took the idea of god to wield its power. they became the associate of god and all would respect and serve them.

Or a desire to manifest the control we already do have.

yes this goes back to the common man who let others think for himself. now the common man has time to think for himself and he begins to think that god isn't real. partly because of the constant oppression of those who weild the 'power of god'--which in actuality is merely the power of all the people who believe in said 'god'. the common man sees this, even if only subconsciously, and so he disbelieves god in order to gain his own individual power. but neither of these groups are right.

I couldn't agree more.

i'm glad

 

[Cris]

Light,

"People in this age eat their food without washing beforehand.

Fortunately most civilized people now use utensils for eating so not washing before eating is hardly an issue anymore.

Monks break their vows of celibacy.

Any self imposed abnormal and unnatural discipline will be difficult to keep, they should not be surprised.

Cows are kept alive only for their milk.

Apart from the ones that are slaughtered for their meat.

Water is scarce.

It is plentiful where I live, and isn’t three quarters of the world water?

Many people watch the skies, praying for rain. No rain comes.

Ahh the power of prayer.

The fields become barren.

Apart from most that don’t.

Suffering from famine and poverty, many attempt to migrate to countries where food is more readily available.

Sounds like a good strategy.

People are without joy and pleasure.

Apart from the many that are joyful and happy.

Many commit suicide.

But the overwhelming vast majority do not.

Men of small intelligence are influenced by atheistic doctrines.

Men of small intelligence can be influenced by almost anything. What is more important is that most with the greatest intelligence tend to be atheistic.

Family, clan and caste are all meaningless.

Apart from the many who put value on these things.

Men are without virtues, purity or decency." (Visnu Purana 6.1)

Apart from the many who are virtuous, pure and decent.

There are two sides to every story and just focusing on one side as if that is everything is simply ingenuous and deceitful.

This is one of many Vedic predictions for our current age.

This is hardly a prediction as it is more simply a statement of the way life has always been for a few.

As one of its many symptoms is always mentioned the prevalence of atheism.

Pity that it got it so wrong. Atheism has not been prevalent these past few thousand years, even now perhaps only 20% of the world population are atheistic. Perhaps a more credible observation is that much of the sorry state of the world is due to the majority influence of theism?

Why? Because atheism is the root cause of the pitiful condition of this age.

How so when so few are atheistic?

If the knowledge of higher reality is lacking, there is no question of life in harmony with the universal order (dharma).

Achieving harmony with ones surroundings does not come through a conviction of something that does not exist but through knowledge of oneself. Once that is achieved then the universe never appears disharmonious.

And dharma being neglected, all the above (as well as other) symptoms of decline appear as reaction.

- J. Adbaita

There is no universal order there is only cause and effect. To avoid unfortunate effects one must avoid unfortunate causes. It is really that simple.

The general principle advocated here is that the universe operates under certain laws and disharmonizing with them is the root cause of all calamity - therefore the greatest calamity is atheism (whether it appears in the guise of organized religion or outright denouncement of the notion of superior maintenance in the universe)

The universe does indeed operate through the base laws of physics, and certainly to attempt to thwart or oppose these laws is futile and pointless. To become harmonious with the universe one must flow with the laws and use them.

There seems to be no relation with these harmonious base laws and belief in any religious concept.