The Importance of the Holy Sacrament

[duendy]

but the point Is love, that the so-called 'real body and blood ofC Christ' as stressed by the 'real' Catholic church WASN'T the real body and blood of Christ. It was just empty words and symbolism, as i have been trying to explore, and, actually, convince for the last 1,111 posts!
Now there is challanege and there is taboo. taboo pretends to not see. i am guessing that many refuse to see what i am saying

please, i can quite understand this convenient overlook if you haven;t had the hallucinogenic experience and so cant dig what all the fuss is about (i have been there pre-takin it myself)....but. surely this must spark SOME interest, seeing it is THe CENTRAL Holy Sacrement an all. nt only for Christianity, but throughout mythic meanings of 'Nectar' and 'Fruit', etc etc etc......all else is just words and fabrication

 

[ellion]

.....to achieve that Moral and Spiritual Perfection which could allow us to be Acquitted when we stand before Christ, that Dreadful Judge who Remembers Humanity primarily for the Pain and Suffering it inflicted upon Himself.

that most be a terrible burden for you to bare.

 

[ellion]

but the point Is love, that the so-called 'real body and blood ofC Christ' as stressed by the 'real' Catholic church WASN'T the real body and blood of Christ. It was just empty words and symbolism, as i have been trying to explore, and, actually, convince for the last 1,111 posts!
Now there is challanege and there is taboo. taboo pretends to not see. i am guessing that many refuse to see what i am saying

please, i can quite understand this convenient overlook if you haven;t had the hallucinogenic experience and so cant dig what all the fuss is about (i have been there pre-takin it myself)....but. surely this must spark SOME interest, seeing it is THe CENTRAL Holy Sacrement an all. nt only for Christianity, but throughout mythic meanings of 'Nectar' and 'Fruit', etc etc etc......all else is just words and fabrication

you mean magic mushrooms?

 

[cole grey]

Leo,

I agree that protestants generally de-emphasize the importance of the eucharist. Although I think it is disappointing, the emphasis likely shifted in response to the original catholic idea that you would end up in hell once the church stopped administering it to you. Maybe that is where my grandfather is now, since he did get a divorce. I was raised catholic. That was the first religion I walked away from. If I wanted a bunch of rules, I could convert to judaism. Ceremonies don't make you free, the truth does.

Regarding your attribution of the de-emphasis of the eucharist to Pauline doctrine - Paul could have been commenting on the idea of of non-christians trying to use the sacrament as a means for salvation, which, as you say, is not the point. It would be like someone going to church to get their wafer, and ignoring the rest of the proceedings, and their relationship to God, which probably happens.

DUENDY, If you perform a ceremony, and do your hallucinogens in remembrance of God, other religions have little basis to condemn you. However, don't pretend that this makes every trip sacred. Eating just any old bread and wine, for the prupose of filling your belly, isn't a sacrament.

Edit - admission - A goblet of wine with a sprinkle of herbs sounds great. It's spiritual value is somewhat dubious to me, but as a "zen" meditation... wow. However, I am trying to hold onto concrete "reality" and find my "trip" in it somehow.

 

[duendy]

you mean magic mushrooms?

YES!....and all other hallucinogenic plants and substances that have been the centre of communal religious ritual, or spiritual ritual since time immemorial

So it peeves me when i hear yet still the serious notion that a sacrament that is merely ordinary bread and wine is covered over with fancy words prefaced with caps pertaining to describe ther real source of inspiration. to me that is phony and self-defeating, and NOT scientific

OK. admit you dont take it, or dont agree with it etc, let's discuss. but don't HIDe from exploring about this. Considering the total chaos in our culture today. the so-called religion collapsing, the secual world in everyones face, crime, war, loads of people on meds, including children pushed them to fit in to their indoctrinating schooling system

I reckon we have to look at what we fear. this war on drug. and what it means eregarding spirituality

so, yeah, magic mushrooms etc...heh

 

[duendy]

the truth does.



DUENDY, If you perform a ceremony, and do your hallucinogens in remembrance of God, other religions have little basis to condemn you. However, don't pretend that this makes every trip sacred. Eating just any old bread and wine, for the prupose of filling your belly, isn't a sacrament.

d__well in Dionysian earth religious ritual, it wasn't 'rememberance' of god but being possessed by god. so you are in process. Ecstasy. That is what patriarchal culture suppresses. and like any emotion it wants out.
So it depends what you want and mean from and by spirituality. are you using your reason to look closely at the religions that TOLERATE --as you say--halluinogenic ritual (err, which ones exactly?)...and see what their dogma is?. cause we can express our ecstasy and use reason. isn't this that is NEEDED? what do you say?

(((())))))((((((((((
Edit - admission - A goblet of wine with a sprinkle of herbs sounds great. It's spiritual value is somewhat dubious to me, but as a "zen" meditation... wow. However, I am trying to hold onto concrete "reality" and find my "trip" in it somehow.

Ok lets discuss that too.
would you say Zen was ecstatic?

 

[okinrus]

Although I think it is disappointing, the emphasis likely shifted in response to the original catholic idea that you would end up in hell once the church stopped administering it to you.

Catholics don't believe this.

Regarding your attribution of the de-emphasis of the eucharist to Pauline doctrine - Paul could have been commenting on the idea of of non-christians trying to use the sacrament as a means for salvation, which, as you say, is not the point. It would be like someone going to church to get their wafer, and ignoring the rest of the proceedings, and their relationship to God, which probably happens.

Paul doesn't deemphasize the Eucharist. He is the only Bible author that directly relates early Christian practice on the matter. The gospels don't do so directly.

 

[ellion]

YES!....and all other hallucinogenic plants and substances that have been the centre of communal religious ritual, or spiritual ritual since time immemorial

So it peeves me when i hear yet still the serious notion that a sacrament that is merely ordinary bread and wine is covered over with fancy words prefaced with caps pertaining to describe ther real source of inspiration. to me that is phony and self-defeating, and NOT scientific

OK. admit you dont take it, or dont agree with it etc, let's discuss. but don't HIDe from exploring about this. Considering the total chaos in our culture today. the so-called religion collapsing, the secual world in everyones face, crime, war, loads of people on meds, including children pushed them to fit in to their indoctrinating schooling system

I reckon we have to look at what we fear. this war on drug. and what it means eregarding spirituality

so, yeah, magic mushrooms etc...heh

drugs are bad, we need to educate our children. i was into mushies, trips, ecstasy, cannibis when i was a teenager, by my mid 20's i had a serious cocaine habit. i know a lot of people that gotten in to harder drugs and really messed up their lifes, some of my school friends, are in jail for various drug related crimes including murder. i dont think drugs are are at all spiritual for me they are totally chemical. spirituality is in your soul whether your stoned or not.

 

[cole grey]

Catholics don't believe this.

Did they not believe it during the time of the protestant reformation? I don't know, but can only imagine the doctrines were more and more exclusionary as you go back into history. Weren't political leaders controlled by the threat of excommunication and the with-holding of the sacraments? There is that old story about the king crawling on his knees in the snow for forgiveness, i can't remember the names (or maybe that was a pope crawling, I doubt that though.)
Also, I know my grandmother was very concerned that they were not allowed a church wedding and that my grandfather reacted against that, and there were quite possibly eternal repercussions for his soul. Sad, but true.

Paul doesn't deemphasize the Eucharist. He is the only Bible author that directly relates early Christian practice on the matter. The gospels don't do so directly.

I was commenting on this -

Yes, that Enemy of All True Christianity, Paul, is somewhat responsible here. Remember in Corinthians where Paul quite insists that the Holy Sacrament is entirely subjective, and will likely do more harm than good, becoming a poison if taken by a sinner, and in his next breath declaring all Christians to be unworthy sinners. It was a deadly formula which had ever since caused Christians to shy away from the Holy Sacrament – for the Protestants to fearfully dismiss it almost entirely, and for the Catholics to put the Holy Sacrament under the strictest restrictions.

DUENDY, I think the "zen" meditation has a major emphasis in removing your focus from the static and BS that is ubiquitous in interaction with society. Hallucinogens would obviously move one's viewpoint to another place. I think there may be some value in both of these approaches, as far as allowing your mind some space to focus on "higher", or, for you, more "natural", things. I guess there are some negatives I associate with drug use, a major one being the ease with which it can change your perspective. It seems to me un-natural to achieve something so important so easily, but that may just be a fault in my reasoning. Another negative is the brain damage most drugs cause.
Like I asked before - do you participate in a ritual? Do you think that every time somebody drops acid, they are being possessed by God?

 

[Sarkus]

but the point Is love, that the so-called 'real body and blood ofC Christ' as stressed by the 'real' Catholic church WASN'T the real body and blood of Christ. It was just empty words and symbolism, as i have been trying to explore, and, actually, convince for the last 1,111 posts!

This is surely just a matter of "faith"?
As all religion surely is.
Catholics believe in transubstantiation - the actual conversion from wafer/wine to body/blood - and have done since it was introduced as a concept in the 12th Century. Does this make it any less a matter of faith than belief in their God? Or anyone else's belief in their own God?

please, i can quite understand this convenient overlook if you haven;t had the hallucinogenic experience and so cant dig what all the fuss is about (i have been there pre-takin it myself)....but. surely this must spark SOME interest, seeing it is THe CENTRAL Holy Sacrement an all. nt only for Christianity, but throughout mythic meanings of 'Nectar' and 'Fruit', etc etc etc......all else is just words and fabrication

And what about all christian sects that don't require the individuals to take the Holy Sacrement?
Are these to be deemed lesser religions?

 

[okinrus]

Did they not believe it during the time of the protestant reformation?

No, at the official position wouldn't be so. They'll never to say "this person's surely going to Hell" because to do so would be to limit God's grace.

Weren't political leaders controlled by the threat of excommunication and the with-holding of the sacraments?

Yes, but they still are today. A Catholic politician cannot remain Catholic while grossly violating natural law or Catholic doctrine.

There is that old story about the king crawling on his knees in the snow for forgiveness, i can't remember the names (or maybe that was a pope crawling, I doubt that though.)

The earliest example I know of is when St. Ambrose basically forced the emperor to repent for killing a thousand men.

Also, I know my grandmother was very concerned that they were not allowed a church wedding and that my grandfather reacted against that, and there were quite possibly eternal repercussions for his soul. Sad, but true.

There are certain situations where the Church won't marry a couple. For instance, the Church won't recognize a divorce, and won't do a marriage unless if the prior marriage was annulled, which is basically showing the prior marriage did not happen. But this has nothing to do with the eternal state of those involved. It's a grave matter, certainly, but nothing more can be said about it.

I was commenting on this -

Paul denied the efficacy of the Eucharist when those partaking did not respect the body of our Lord, telling the Corintheans that they were sick because their gatherings were disrespectful.

 

[duendy]

drugs are bad, we need to educate our children.

d__yes, i completely agree we have to educate our children, but the 'drugs is bad' line isn't having an effect. they lugh at it cause they ALSO know drugs feel good TOO. so there has to be another way. a more honest and less patronizing way, which takes research and integrity.

i was into mushies, trips, ecstasy, cannibis when i was a teenager, by my mid 20's i had a serious cocaine habit.

d__well, sorry for your experience. but it has not been so for me and for others. Yes, i have tried coke--neverbought--and didn't like it. never knew what all the fuss is about. is a completely different drug than hallucinogens and marijuana, ANd cocoa leaf

i know a lot of people that gotten in to harder drugs and really messed up their lifes, some of my school friends, are in jail for various drug related crimes including murder. i dont think drugs are are at all spiritual for me they are totally chemical. spirituality is in your soul whether your stoned or not.

Well you are getting mixed up equating hard drugs with hallucinogens. When yo look into this --well what i have found is this. that when Indigenous cultures--who would have used hallucinogenic sacraments as part of their spirituality-- have ben taken over by the oppressive mindset, then THAt is when all MEANING is stripped from their lives and usually this is where hard drugs come into the scene. This pattern has happened to many Native American peoples
And this is why i am wanting to discuss all about this. because what has relatvely recently happened to them has happened to us also!

 

[duendy]

DUENDY, I think the "zen" meditation has a major emphasis in removing your focus from the static and BS that is ubiquitous in interaction with society. Hallucinogens would obviously move one's viewpoint to another place. I think there may be some value in both of these approaches, as far as allowing your mind some space to focus on "higher", or, for you, more "natural", things. I guess there are some negatives I associate with drug use, a major one being the ease with which it can change your perspective.

d__that 'worry' always reminds me of the work ethic. the in -grained western-ish idea (though Japanes culture has it BIG time. people have been know to die there quite often from the 'duty' of over-work) that one cannot get a 'free-lunch'. so that anything that comes 'easy' must be questionably. Well apart from eating or drinking the sacrament. the experience may be FAr from easy. it quakes the very soul. it is the real deal. it was around LONg before Zen and Buddhism.

It seems to me un-natural to achieve something so important so easily, but that may just be a fault in my reasoning. Another negative is the brain damage most drugs cause.

d__the propagand about hallucinogens causing brain damage is much to do with the war on drugs spin. of course abusing ANYTHINg will may cause adverse effects. this is why it is very reasonable for us to explore all about this, for willy nilly the secret's out, and many youths DO take this stuff etc like they have been brought up watching ad world, and video games etc. as a commodity,. many have ziltch idea about the LONG history of the sacramant. i feel it is intelligent to explore all this and communicat about it so there WILL be respect for the partaking of these sacraments.
If i remember, i seem to recall you viewing Tim Leary of having suffered brain damage via LSD?....and if you recall i say that they WAY he advocated its use was encapsulated in the idea of all-the-time bliss which is preached by Eastern religions. that i dont believe. we cannot have all-the-time bliss. but we DO need insight into the Intelligence of Nature. and hallucinogens wisely used are the key supreme. They are Nature's Fruit form age immemorial. where all of myth and religion and folklore has been inspired from. so it's worthwhile gettin yer head round this

Like I asked before - do you participate in a ritual? Do you think that every time somebody drops acid, they are being possessed by God?

No. some kids drop em 5 at a time. some drip 200 shrooms. all silly macho behaviour and a wanting for a disneyesqu entertianment....all similar to the shit spewed out by TV media culture. but having said that. i have said that i feel that how some ancient cults used them including the Orphics and Christians (very early and secret) was also not good, in that their dogmas were DIVISIVE and not Nature oriented. THat has to be explored to. you dont do it by ignoring about it

 

[duendy]

And what about all christian sects that don't require the individuals to take the Holy Sacrement?
Are these to be deemed lesser religions?

The individual has too ask their self. what do THEY want. if you are happy standing in a church mouthing mothy bally old hymns, and listening to some old priest whining on the hundredth time some worn out old cliche from the Bible at you....etc. if THAt is what you believe is spirituality, then nothin i say will change you. but if you have ANY hint there might be more to it. something INCREDIBLY alive, and full of meaning, then maybe some of what i am saying may park off an interest for you to explore for your self further

 

[Godless]

As a proponent of Catholicism I think I have largely been remiss in not emphasizing enough the importance of the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ in the Bread and Wine of the Holy Mass. One of Catholicism’s great Prophets and Visionaries, Saint John Bosco, saw in a Vision that the Catholic Church would be surrounded and pounded by enemies until, with the Death of a Beleaguered Pope (which may well refer to Pope John Paul II)

Ok!! so were in the skeem of things did molesting kids became "the in thing to do?. :bugeye:

F*ck the catholics they are going down!!!! seducing young boys, this is nothing new folkes it has been going on for centuries!! the hell with these malefactors of life!!.



Godless.

 

[ellion]

Ok!! so were in the skeem of things did molesting kids became "the in thing to do?. :bugeye:

F*ck the catholics they are going down!!!! seducing young boys, this is nothing new folkes it has been going on for centuries!! the hell with these malefactors of life!!.



Godless.

oh come on!

be fair,
catholics dont have a monopoly on child abuse it happens in christian parishes too.

any body any thoughts on why this happens.

 

[ellion]

....... when all MEANING is stripped from their lives and usually this is where hard drugs come into the scene. This pattern has happened to many Native American peoples
And this is why i am wanting to discuss all about this. because what has relatvely recently happened to them has happened to us also!

this pattern happens in western culture. it is not just with hard drugs. alcohol and cigarettes, prostitution, etc. these are self destructive behaviours that people seek solace in, because their lives have been devalued by the 'oppressive mindset'

dont know much about native americans though, suppose they turn to the pipe.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

okinrus: Paul doesn't deemphasize the Eucharist. He is the only Bible author that directly relates early Christian practice on the matter. The gospels don't do so directly.
*************
M*W: Well, okinrus, for once we agree on something! You are right, Paul created the idea of the "body and blood" ritual, but he wrote that Jesus, himself, started the practice. Truthfully, however, it was probably initiated by the Essene community where Jesus was a member. As you may be aware, the "body and blood" rituals were sexual rites of purification. Not that sex was condemned or considered evil -- the Essenes or Naasenes, whatever their name, they considered sexual practices to bring purification.

I am curious, however, if these ancient sexual rites using semen and blood could somehow be repressed in the priesthood for millenia and now coming out in the perversion we are seeing in the Catholic Church?

What gets me is that the Catholic priests are getting all the media coverage when this has gone on in every christian sect.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

QUOTE: "As a proponent of Catholicism I think I have largely been remiss in not emphasizing enough the importance of the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ in the Bread and Wine of the Holy Mass. One of Catholicism’s great Prophets and Visionaries, Saint John Bosco, saw in a Vision that the Catholic Church would be surrounded and pounded by enemies until, with the Death of a Beleaguered Pope (which may well refer to Pope John Paul II)"
*************
M*W: I've read that it will be two popes down the road. Although it could be JPII or the next one. With christianity already in decline mode, we'll just have to wait and see. Malachi Martin, a former Jesuit, has written several authoritative books on The Vatican, the Popes, and the Fall of the Church.

BTW, last night on Houston news, we've had a case of child molestation by a local priest. I was happy to hear that our Archbishop, Joseph Fiorenza, did the right thing and called the police.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

ellion: oh come on! be fair, catholics dont have a monopoly on child abuse it happens in christian parishes too. any body any thoughts on why this happens.
*************
M*W: For starters, being a man of the cloth is the perfect cover-up for the perverted tendencies ALREADY in the minds of the perps! That's why they pursue a vocation in the clergy. It really doesn't happen just because a momentary opportunity arises. Perversions are embedded in the soul.

BTW, did anyone watch the expose last night on Michael Jackson? It was definitely incriminating.