The nebula is still the product of a star, so stars came first.
The Hubble Tends to Validate the Bible
- Thread starter HectorDecimal
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HectorDecimal
Registered Senior Member
Possibly. The hydrogen gas clouds in intergalactic space suggest elementary acretion, as in gravitons (if they truly exist) photons, Higgs fields, perhaps even "tempotrons" (my own speculated species) came long before stars. There is no perfect proof that all nebulae come from 1st generation stars.
Good point though.
Yazata
Valued Senior Member
It's not a good idea to barge onto a discussion forum and immediately start insulting the people who post there. It gets you off to a bad start.
Possibly. The hydrogen gas clouds in intergalactic space suggest elementary acretion, as in gravitons (if they truly exist) photons, Higgs fields, perhaps even "tempotrons" (my own speculated species) came long before stars. There is no perfect proof that all nebulae come from 1st generation stars.
Good point though.
But are planets made of hydrogen?
HectorDecimal
Registered Senior Member
Most of them we can probe at close range seem to have a lot of it in one form or another. So do stars.
Ask yourself this: What is the easiest to beat into a ball: Elementary particles or a star? Another way of asking it might be what flows down a river easier: A rock or a flower? A grain of sand of a microbe?
But doesn't life require the heavier elements?
HectorDecimal
Registered Senior Member
That depends on the definition of life. Would a lifeform existing in hypospace or hyperspace be composed of the same building blocks as in photon space? On the other hand, could a lifeform from this photon space dimension exist within hypospace or hyperspace and return intact to photon space?
Yazata
Valued Senior Member
The hubble (bifocals and reading chart installed
That needs a great deal of additional argument.
I'm assuming that you're referring to Genesis 1. I think that it's going to require a great deal of twisting and turning to square the Genesis chronology with that of scientific cosmology.
That's probably true for you, autobiographically.
But it sounds like a tremendous non-sequitur to me. How does one get from a fanciful layman's interpretation of some Hubble photographs to confidence that the Bible is "the written word of God"?
(Traditional Buddhist cosmology speaks of countless world-systems. I don't see that idea in the Hebrew creation mythology. Having said that, I don't interpret that as evidence that Buddhist tradition derives from an omniscient source. I think that it's more likely to just be a lucky ancient guess.)
(Quotations from NIV.)
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light, and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light day, and the darkness he called night. And there was evening, and there was morning the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.
7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so.
8 God called the vault sky. And there was evening, and there was morning the second day.
9 And God said, Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear. And it was so.
10 God called the dry ground land, and the gathered waters he called seas. And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds. And it was so.
12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
13 And there was evening, and there was morning the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,
15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth. And it was so.
16 God made two great light the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth,
18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19 And there was evening, and there was morningâ€"the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.
21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
22 God blessed them and said, Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.
23 And there was evening, and there was morning the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind. And it was so.
25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.
27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light, and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light day, and the darkness he called night. And there was evening, and there was morning the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.
7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so.
8 God called the vault sky. And there was evening, and there was morning the second day.
9 And God said, Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear. And it was so.
10 God called the dry ground land, and the gathered waters he called seas. And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds. And it was so.
12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
13 And there was evening, and there was morning the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,
15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth. And it was so.
16 God made two great light the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth,
18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19 And there was evening, and there was morningâ€"the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.
21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
22 God blessed them and said, Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.
23 And there was evening, and there was morning the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind. And it was so.
25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.
27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.
Crank or Troll? Only time will tell.
HectorDecimal
Registered Senior Member
How does one get from a 5th Grader's insult attempting level to a misconception of the definition of non-sequitur?
That makes no sense either. Last time I checked my name wasn't Moses.
Now that's impressive. A 5th grade level comparing Bhudism to String Theory, which fails itself by Susskind's own internal conflict where a multiverse is concerned.
Maybe lucky we saw it soon enough to dismiss it.
Now let's get to your "task.":
(Quotations from NIV.)
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
I covered that.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
::: I thought you were an expert on string theory. Just because the "father of string theory" contradicts himself, doesn't mean the Father of two time-space dimensions arising out of String and kaluza-Klein theory has to follow along some stuffshirt professor's path.
3 And God said, “Let there be light, and there was light.
::: Are you bringing this up to verify a material dimension based upon photons exists or to herald the Dude that spoke it into existence?
4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
::: Let's see... normal photon material and dark matter.
5 God called the light day, and the darkness he called night. And there was evening, and there was morning the first day.
::: You have a better naming system? God said He originallyresided with His face pressed against the deep. Looking at that deep endless void must certainly be exciting. So now we have glowing particles everywhere inside the heavens and they are disappearing into those dark areas, dark matter, dark truncated singularities, etc.
6 And God said, Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.
::: Actually the NIV I have says "expanse." So we have Hyperspace in tachyons trying to interact with photons and worse yet Tardyons. I suppose you can call a quantum leap a "vault" of sorts...
7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so.
::: I was impressed with speaking light into existence. That was a real innovative idea and the technolgy to do it had to be nothing short off gnarly.
8 God called the vault sky. And there was evening, and there was morning the second day.
::: Sounds like enough work for the architect's second day. First He presses His own paperspace, then He puts in the wash for the background. I usually let my renderings dry overnight before adding more layers and geometry. Great artist I'd say.
9 And God said, Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear. And it was so.
::: Now we are getting into those intergalactic hydrogen clouds being beaten into submission to become heavier elements, compounds, spinning stellar matter and planetary matter. And "Yes." it was so...
10 God called the dry ground land, and the gathered waters he called seas. And God saw that it was good.
::: Of course you realize we are talking earth as in protoplanetary material, not Earth, as in Terra Firma, Planet Earth, 3rd rock from Sol, etcetera...
11 Then God said, Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds. And it was so.
::: We have light. We have water. God likely rplicated His basic DNA into those protoplyds, added some Mg for plant porphyrins. And plants are, so "Yes." it was so... Some land near the water body was cool enough to grow plants...
12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
::: DNA does that... Now I do like life, so "Yes." it was good...
13 And there was evening, and there was morning the third day.
::: So galaxies are actually in motion by this point. So animation was going on. God probably was already envisioning Walt Disney, pre schoolers and reasonably elloquent 5th graders asking old hippy physicists to write their essay for them...
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,
::: My NIV doesn't read sacred times... nonetheless, the stars are acreting and grouping into galaxies. Funny coincidence, the stars finally ignite, blowing outward the radii of these protoplanetary disks leaving debris and ice to some equivalent of a Kyper Belt.
15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth. And it was so.
::: Stars do put out a lot of light. Enough in fact to overtake the sattering of the gray dust on at least our (Earth's) moon... enough to reflect onto a planet at night. Funny none of that would be there yet in that one protoplyd exmaple where the Hubble doesn't block out the star's light because it hasn't ignited at that point.
16 God made two great light the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
:::We've been over that. I imagine your teacher cracks a ruler on the desk to wake everyone up and reiterates to make certain everyone caught that...
17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth,
::: See what happens if you aren't listening the first time around?
18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
::: Nothing but the best for my pup
19 And there was evening, and there was morningâ€"the fourth day.
::: Easy money...
20 And God said, Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.
::: The DNA evolves and the food chain begins...
21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
::: Land still contracting, volcanic, hot... The water and the air would be the first viable places for advanced animate life to be teeming...
22 God blessed them and said, Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.
::: So the land cooled enough not to burn their feet and "The Bird" was now the Word...
23 And there was evening, and there was morning the fifth day.
::: Teachers usually are a bit repetetive for study areas that will be on the end of the year test...
24 And God said, Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind. And it was so.
::: Now.. here's the question for you: "What formed first: Mg or Fe? If the earth is barely cooled enough to produce plants, how would the porphyrins for animate life evolve first in the air and the seas?
25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
::: This will be on the test at the end of the year
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.
::: Next question for you. What lifeforms have triple helix DNA? Yes. A study question... It will be on the test.
27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
::: If God exists in hypospace, what might that "image" represent? (Yep. On the test...)
28 God blessed them and said to them, Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.
I covered that.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
::: I thought you were an expert on string theory. Just because the "father of string theory" contradicts himself, doesn't mean the Father of two time-space dimensions arising out of String and kaluza-Klein theory has to follow along some stuffshirt professor's path.
3 And God said, “Let there be light, and there was light.
::: Are you bringing this up to verify a material dimension based upon photons exists or to herald the Dude that spoke it into existence?
4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
::: Let's see... normal photon material and dark matter.
5 God called the light day, and the darkness he called night. And there was evening, and there was morning the first day.
::: You have a better naming system? God said He originallyresided with His face pressed against the deep. Looking at that deep endless void must certainly be exciting. So now we have glowing particles everywhere inside the heavens and they are disappearing into those dark areas, dark matter, dark truncated singularities, etc.
6 And God said, Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.
::: Actually the NIV I have says "expanse." So we have Hyperspace in tachyons trying to interact with photons and worse yet Tardyons. I suppose you can call a quantum leap a "vault" of sorts...
7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so.
::: I was impressed with speaking light into existence. That was a real innovative idea and the technolgy to do it had to be nothing short off gnarly.
8 God called the vault sky. And there was evening, and there was morning the second day.
::: Sounds like enough work for the architect's second day. First He presses His own paperspace, then He puts in the wash for the background. I usually let my renderings dry overnight before adding more layers and geometry. Great artist I'd say.
9 And God said, Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear. And it was so.
::: Now we are getting into those intergalactic hydrogen clouds being beaten into submission to become heavier elements, compounds, spinning stellar matter and planetary matter. And "Yes." it was so...
10 God called the dry ground land, and the gathered waters he called seas. And God saw that it was good.
::: Of course you realize we are talking earth as in protoplanetary material, not Earth, as in Terra Firma, Planet Earth, 3rd rock from Sol, etcetera...
11 Then God said, Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds. And it was so.
::: We have light. We have water. God likely rplicated His basic DNA into those protoplyds, added some Mg for plant porphyrins. And plants are, so "Yes." it was so... Some land near the water body was cool enough to grow plants...
12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
::: DNA does that... Now I do like life, so "Yes." it was good...
13 And there was evening, and there was morning the third day.
::: So galaxies are actually in motion by this point. So animation was going on. God probably was already envisioning Walt Disney, pre schoolers and reasonably elloquent 5th graders asking old hippy physicists to write their essay for them...
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,
::: My NIV doesn't read sacred times... nonetheless, the stars are acreting and grouping into galaxies. Funny coincidence, the stars finally ignite, blowing outward the radii of these protoplanetary disks leaving debris and ice to some equivalent of a Kyper Belt.
15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth. And it was so.
::: Stars do put out a lot of light. Enough in fact to overtake the sattering of the gray dust on at least our (Earth's) moon... enough to reflect onto a planet at night. Funny none of that would be there yet in that one protoplyd exmaple where the Hubble doesn't block out the star's light because it hasn't ignited at that point.
16 God made two great light the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
:::We've been over that. I imagine your teacher cracks a ruler on the desk to wake everyone up and reiterates to make certain everyone caught that...
17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth,
::: See what happens if you aren't listening the first time around?
18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
::: Nothing but the best for my pup
19 And there was evening, and there was morningâ€"the fourth day.
::: Easy money...
20 And God said, Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.
::: The DNA evolves and the food chain begins...
21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
::: Land still contracting, volcanic, hot... The water and the air would be the first viable places for advanced animate life to be teeming...
22 God blessed them and said, Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.
::: So the land cooled enough not to burn their feet and "The Bird" was now the Word...
23 And there was evening, and there was morning the fifth day.
::: Teachers usually are a bit repetetive for study areas that will be on the end of the year test...
24 And God said, Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind. And it was so.
::: Now.. here's the question for you: "What formed first: Mg or Fe? If the earth is barely cooled enough to produce plants, how would the porphyrins for animate life evolve first in the air and the seas?
25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
::: This will be on the test at the end of the year
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.
::: Next question for you. What lifeforms have triple helix DNA? Yes. A study question... It will be on the test.
27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
::: If God exists in hypospace, what might that "image" represent? (Yep. On the test...)
28 God blessed them and said to them, Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.
::: And primitive tools were on THAT test...
Now, young Yazata, you have much of your homework assignment done for you, but not the whole thing. I suggest you re-write it in your own paraphrase.
What makes me think you are a school child? Even if you are a slow 9th grader, most 5th graders can do essay assignments involving all that where their parents can't. An adult has been dumbed down a lot unless he or she is very resilient, yet they've supposedly been taught manners if they have a good set of parents and aren't as quick to insult someone for kicks or to make themselves look smart.
Most college students insist on acting as graceful and sophisiticated as possible. High school students are interested in the opposite sex... remember He made them male and female? The 5th grader's frontal lobes are no more developed than the 18 year old's, but the parietal and occipital lobes are ready to take in as much as possible. Such is why 5th graders usually outsmart their parents.
Your error is you picked an old hippy who has studied astrophysics for 40 years. Now go finish your homework...
HectorDecimal
Registered Senior Member
But of course it's okay to insult the new guy and hijack his threads...
You do realize after my doing your homework, I'll likely ignore you for the most part unless you start acting like an adult...
HectorDecimal
Registered Senior Member
That's interesting. I brought chemistry into answering yazata's tirade..
HectorDecimal
Registered Senior Member
Fascinating.
Maybe a 3rd possibility? Neither.
The topic is not about the poster. It is about the topic. Thus I'll pretend I don't see off topic stuff from here forward.
Interesting. I didn't think it was needed to hang around and make sure you knew which of two links that you yourself posted I was referring to. And yet you didn't get the right one. Even with Cosmic's more specific answer.
HectorDecimal
Registered Senior Member
It probably would have been a good idea. Then you could have amalgamated the entire series of posts that led to CosmicTraveler's trolling and you would have known I did not refer to that particular selection as an example of a preignited star and the disk, but to the site itself. You also would have seen the one I blatantly pointed out as having a luminous acretion disk, yet no ignition in the star.
That's been sidestepped by all wanting to make the thread about the poster instead of the topic.
The discription of that one says as I did: It is a plasma jet
ABOUT THIS IMAGE:
DG Tauri B appears very similar to HH 30, with jets and a central dark lane with reflected starlight at its edges. In this WFPC2 image, the dust lane is much thicker than seen in HH 30, indicating that dusty material is still in the process of falling onto the hidden star and disk. The bright jet extends a distance of 90 billion miles away from the system.
Object Name: DG Tauri B
Trolls generally accent something out of context and diminish the real evidence.
HectorDecimal
Registered Senior Member
ABOUT THIS IMAGE:
A NASA Hubble Space Telescope picture of three protoplanetary disks, called "proplyds" in the Orion Nebula, a star-forming region 1,500 light-years away.
Each proplyd appears as thick disk with a hole in the middle where the cool star is located. Radiation from nearby hot stars "boils off" material from the disk's surface. This material is then blown back into a comet-like tail by a stellar "wind" of radiation and subatomic particles streaming from the hot stars.
http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/star/protoplanetary_disk/pr1992029c/
Funny... these fellows don't have an ignited star, but the pro(to)plyds are even described as having a "cool star" in the center.
I guess that really shoots the "star ignites after the planets are formed" chronology right in the butt doesn't it.
Back to the OP topic...
A NASA Hubble Space Telescope picture of three protoplanetary disks, called "proplyds" in the Orion Nebula, a star-forming region 1,500 light-years away.
Each proplyd appears as thick disk with a hole in the middle where the cool star is located. Radiation from nearby hot stars "boils off" material from the disk's surface. This material is then blown back into a comet-like tail by a stellar "wind" of radiation and subatomic particles streaming from the hot stars.
http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/star/protoplanetary_disk/pr1992029c/
Funny... these fellows don't have an ignited star, but the pro(to)plyds are even described as having a "cool star" in the center.
I guess that really shoots the "star ignites after the planets are formed" chronology right in the butt doesn't it.
Back to the OP topic...
Syne's little brother.
We need better moderation here. How does this troll make it 62 posts?
okay, how do we know this?
you DO realize in order to make such a statement requires proof of a god do you not?
good luck.
Calling someone a troll is against the rules. Members should be considered legitimate as long as they are active (not banned).
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