The "homophobic" lie

[Tiassa]

A quote from one of my Sciforums neighbors:

And that's exactly why gays are not allowed in the military. I don't want to be asleep in my barracks, and getting violated by some homo at the same time. No thanks.

(#1574286)

And now, for something completely different:

And then there's this paranoia that people have: "Here! Here's that poof! Watch yourself!" Like do these people honestly think that if they're not careful, this gay bloke's going to come in the pub and think, "Oh, good, they're off their guard; I'll have the lot of 'em"? Just because someone's gay doesn't mean they want to have sex with you; you're a slob! These blokes must think that gay men are like a sexual version of the Terminator, an unstoppable force: "Gender, male. Mission, have sex. Hasta la vista, ducky!"

(Mark Steel, "Sexuality")

One of the things that strikes me about this brand of homophobia is its self-centered origin. After all, the solution so many propose in response to female soldiers who want to sleep without being violated by a man is that they shouldn't be in the service. In the end, such homophobia may well be a petulant extension of a broadly-seeded male sexual fantasy. Men want to be propositioned, want easy access to sex, but from women. So they project their own sexual aggression onto other men, which makes the homosexual all the more frightening, because the frightened het-man is imagining that the gay is as sexually aggressive, nondiscriminating, and indifferent to proper human respect as the het-man believes himself to be.

In the end, the paranoid hets are all imagining that gay men will be as ridiculous and annoying as the hets themselves, and in the hets' minds, everyone already knows that you're only supposed to treat women like that.

... [A]ccording to the statistics, one in twelve people are gay. But even this figure of one in twelve, where does that come from? Now, I come from a place called Swanlea. If you went up to High Street with a clipboard, "Uh, excuse me sir, I'm doing a survey--"

"What--?"

And even people who seem to be straight down the line, hundred percent heterosexuals, you go for a pint with them one night, and suddenly they'll say, "Well, there was this one time, right, when me and this other bloke--me mate, we used to play stucco--and one night all the tables were booked, so instead we went to bed together."

And even blokes who say they can't stand gays, it usually turns out they've had some homosexual experience or other. So they try to make out that what they did doesn't really count:

(Three blokes are sitting in a pub.)

FIRST: Check out the new barmaid, eh?

(All three leer, bark approvingly.)

SECOND: Hey, uh, seen that Lovethorne bloke's dead?

THIRD: Yeah. Well he had it coming.

FIRST: Yeah, it's disgusting what they get up to.

SECOND: I mean, how can you do that with another bloke? You know, I mean, it's not like when you were seventeen and larking about, like, you know?

THIRD: Oh, yeah, yeah, you mean play about with each other in the showers after football? I mean, well, everybody does that!

FIRST: Yeah, well, that's just a laugh, i'nnit?

SECOND: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, like when we was on the building site. Remember Alf?

FIRST: What, Alfred Shipford?

SECOND: Yeah. You know, me and him used to have it off together on the scaffolding after work. You know. It was just mucking about, wa'nnit?

THIRD: Yeah, I mean, we all did that with Alf.

FIRST: But we were picking up birds while we were doing it.

THIRD: Hey, I'll tell you what I done, just for a laugh. I picked this bloke up, in a pub. We was both pissed.

FIRST: Oh, I've done that. You know, for a lark.

SECOND: What pub was that in?

THIRD: The Leather Cap 'n' Tash.

SECOND: Yeah, the one with the drag queens?

FIRST: Oh, yeah. Well, who hasn't gone down there on a Thursday, stripped naked, chained themselves up in the back room and gone, "Come on, big boys, I'll take the lot of ya!"

SECOND: That's just for a laugh, i'nnit? You know, it's like me. I've been with Stan for thirty years, living as man and wife.

THIRD: You what?

SECOND: Well, for a laugh.

FIRST AND THIRD: (together) Right. Yeah. Oh, right.

THIRD: Thought you was a poofter, for a minute.

SECOND: You want a smack in the mouth?​

(Mark Steel, "Sexuality")

It's okay to admit to temptation, people. The saddest thing of all is that the fear comes entirely from within. And all for superficial lies, all to maintain a façade against your own, groundless self-loathing?

Your fear is a lie. It is your own lie. You are the only one who can lift the burden.

 

[Reiku]

Gay guys not in the military? What a load of shit.
At least a quarter of the guys in the army are MOST PROBABLY gay. It would surprise the greater majority how many people are either bi or simply gay... What's the count again? One in every three people are likely gay or bi?

 

[draqon]

Thus extermination phase of all gays shall start

 

[Reiku]

''Thus extermination phase of all gays shall start''

Oh well then... bye bye America.

 

[Orleander]

Gay guys not in the military? What a load of shit....

agreed. Is the guy from Iran???

 

[Baron Max]

One of the things that strikes me about this brand of homophobia ...

And once again, you're equating the dislike or hatred of gays to "fear" of them. I know of virtually no one who is afraid of gays.

Perhaps, Tiassa, you're using your own feelings to project it onto others?

The saddest thing of all is that the fear comes entirely from within.

What fear? Why are you afraid of gays, Tiassa? And even if you are, why should you project your own fears onto others?

As to women in the military, I'm more than 100% supportive. But by the same token, I don't think that men and women can function properly in such close proximity without sex rearing it's ugly head. I think women should have their own battalions, separate from the male battalions.

As to gays in the military? I think that's fine, but they should wear pink berets and little pink, patent leather booties! And if they're paratroopers, their parachutes should be pink and fluffy with white lace trimmings.

Baron Max

 

[DeepThought]

Men want to be propositioned, want easy access to sex, but from women.

Tiassa,

Maybe in America but certainly not everywhere on Earth.

Many cultures still adhere to strong family values where such behavior from men or women would be considered unacceptable.

It's okay to admit to temptation, people.

Is it really?

 

[pjdude1219]

any one here of the golden band. they were one of the few units that every beat a unit of spartans. it was 300 homosexuals. after the battle the spartan general had this to say of the golden band let no man say that anything these men did was amoral or unmanly. um yeah that proved that gays not a problem in the milatary

 

[Baron Max]

any one here of the golden band. they were one of the few units that every beat a unit of spartans. it was 300 homosexuals. after the battle the spartan general had this to say of the golden band let no man say that anything these men did was amoral or unmanly. um yeah that proved that gays not a problem in the milatary

Oh, sure ....but they were ALL homosexuals. Don't you see the difference?

Baron Max

 

[pjdude1219]

Oh, sure ....but they were ALL homosexuals. Don't you see the difference?

Baron Max

it does not matter because the arguement is that the homosexuals will be distracted by being turned on by males serving with them. and also you ignored the fact that the spartans said they did NOTHING AMORAL

 

[Reiku]

I find that amusing.

 

[Baron Max]

it does not matter because the arguement is that the homosexuals will be distracted by being turned on by males serving with them.

I would think that in a major battle or fierce combat, the very last thing on anyone's mind would be sex!!

It's in the barracks or during normal duty where the problems arise. And it's the same with het males and females serving together ...there's a natural attraction that one just can't overlook or pretend doesn't exist.

Gays should be formed into their own battalions and have virtually no contact with het battalions. Ditto for female battalions. Simply don't mix the two and there won't be any problems!

I still think pink berets and pink parachutes for gay paratroopers would be so neat, huh? ...LOL!

Baron Max

 

[Reiku]

But then, there is getting the closit guys and garls to admit there gay..
Just give them medication to kill there sexual desires. They've done it before, they can do it again.

 

[Reiku]

''I still think pink berets and pink parachutes for gay paratroopers would be so neat, huh? ...LOL!''

Yeh... the bloody battle on field has now turned into handbags at dawn!

 

[Ripley]

Men want to be propositioned, want easy access to sex, but from women. So they project their own sexual aggression onto other men, which makes the homosexual all the more frightening, because the frightened het-man is imagining that the gay is as sexually aggressive, nondiscriminating, and indifferent to proper human respect as the het-man believes himself to be.

I wonder. Because the hetero-male, wishing to subvert his fear of the homo-male, will indubitably resort to emasculating the homo-male figure—rendering him less daunting, like so:

As to gays in the military? I think that's fine, but they should wear pink berets and little pink, patent leather booties! And if they're paratroopers, their parachutes should be pink and fluffy with white lace trimmings.

 

[Tiassa]

Notes around

Maybe in America but certainly not everywhere on Earth.

Many cultures still adhere to strong family values where such behavior from men or women would be considered unacceptable.

I want to break that into two parts. First, you're right. Secondly, you're wrong.

I agree with your basic point, but if we take a look at socially conservative, monotheistic cultures, we see a deep-rooted tendency to displace the actions of men by blaming some inherent aspect of women. It's not universal, and Sufis, at least, tell stories to account for and counteract the phenomenon within the cultures they find it, but nothing's perfect. I would be interested, however, to see the threshold at which there is no blaming of the rape victim, and the sexual currency of a woman's mere existence is devalued beyond practical effect. Depending on definitions, a high-value sexual currency coincides with many cultural "family values".

Start broadly: Western culture ... Eastern culture? White culture ... Everyone else? Yellow? Brown? Red? Is there a chartreuse? Christian? Jewish? Muslim? Hindu? Buddhist? Hell, is there a properly atheist culture yet? Define culture however you want. At what point are we literally sifting for molecules? At what point does that sexual currency disappear? We can expect a certain correlation regarding that threshold: the populations that exist below it also are fairly small populations.

Aside from those, show me a stable and established culture that does not feature prostitution. Or show me a stable and established culture where the majority of the prostitutes are men?

Which raises the obvious point: Men, from an evolutionary standpoint, are extraneoous. Literally, all we do is hold the sac until we're called upon to empty it. In order to function in our dreary lives, we men seek to perform our evolutionary function. We will love it, lie for it, in some cases steal it, and quite often buy it. And sometimes, just to finish the rhyme, we'll even die for it.

As relates to the lie that is homophobia, Deep Thought, I would ask you to start with a realistic, applicable reason why not. Because whether it's an aesthetic or biological-utility rejection, homophobia still pertains to the purpose of males in the human species.

Thus, I would suggest to you that the parts of the world in which you will find your argument validated will also feature different attitudes toward homosexuality. Those cultures will, statistically speaking, most likely reject it. But they will have different reasons, different expressions of priority.

• • •​

And once again, you're equating the dislike or hatred of gays to "fear" of them. I know of virtually no one who is afraid of gays.

You know virtually nobody.

(A) Start with the topic post's first citation.
(B) Try something a little more tangible than a virtual personality, like the results of the 2004 election.
(C) Realize that not all fear is identified by the high-pitched "Eek!" you hear from afar.​

What fear? Why are you afraid of gays, Tiassa? And even if you are, why should you project your own fears onto others?

Why would I be afraid of gays, Max?

Oh, I see ... my bad. I forgot my mandatory Americans With Disabilities Act adjustments for the contextually-challenged.

My sincere apologies to my contextually-challenged neighbors, even though many of you have no clue why I'm apologizing.

• • •​

I wonder. Because the hetero-male, wishing to subvert his fear of the homo-male, will indubitably resort to emasculating the homo-male figure—rendering him less daunting, like so

It's a closeted aspect of a closeted perspective of a closet fear. Something akin to a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a vest.

 

[Challenger78]

I would think that in a major battle or fierce combat, the very last thing on anyone's mind would be sex!!

It's in the barracks or during normal duty where the problems arise. And it's the same with het males and females serving together ...there's a natural attraction that one just can't overlook or pretend doesn't exist.

Gays should be formed into their own battalions and have virtually no contact with het battalions. Ditto for female battalions. Simply don't mix the two and there won't be any problems!

I still think pink berets and pink parachutes for gay paratroopers would be so neat, huh? ...LOL!

Baron Max

gotta give it to you max, at least your consistently pro segregation... Yeah, Female Battalions and male battalions do exist, Females are not allowed to be Artillerywomen, I think none are in spec ops. (not sure though). But yeah. GO THE BOUDICCA BATTALION.

 

[Tiassa]

What are they hiding?

Anyway I'm starting to wonder about our homophobes and what they're hiding ....

And even people who seem to be straight down the line, hundred percent heterosexuals, you go for a pint with them one night, and suddenly they'll say, "Well, there was this one time, right, when me and this other bloke--me mate, we used to play stucco--and one night all the tables were booked, so instead we went to bed together."

And even blokes who say they can't stand gays, it usually turns out they've had some homosexual experience or other. So they try to make out that what they did doesn't really count ....

(Mark Steel, "Sexuality")

It's a good thing Max didn't say anything about nurses.

I think that's fine, but they should wear pink berets and little pink, patent leather booties! And if they're paratroopers, their parachutes should be pink and fluffy with white lace trimmings.

I mean, that would be a Billy Wirtz nightmare in the making:

Roberta, Roberta!
(cough, cough) Jesus Christ!
Oh, please, please get your big legs off of me!

'Cause when you roll your big legs around me--
Help me, Jesus!
--Don't you know it feels so good honey,
But you just won't let me breathe
(Oh, God, please, Roberta, come on, will you, come on, get up!
I'll give you a cookie! Come on, please get up! Oh, Lord!)

You can be sweet as a banana moon pie,
Or you can be as salty as a souvenir Virginia country ham.
You can be sweet as a banana-sittin'-on-the-backseat-of-my-Camaro-underneath-the-pink-and-purple-dingleballs-ridin'-down-95-yeehaw-Miami here-we-come moon pie.
Or salty as a souvenir Virginia-sittin'-next-to-the-bottle-rockets-south-of-the-border country ham.

'Cause when you kiss me with your big luscious greasy lips,
I realize I'm a very naughty--
Yes, I need a little discipline!
No, please don't make me wear that nurse's dress again tonight!
--Groveling worm of a love slave!

(Rev. Billy C. Wirtz, "Roberta")

Funny thing is, there's even a closet homo moment in the beginning of that song, but that's beside the point.

What is the point? Go buy, download, or otherwise steal a copy of that song.

 

[Baron Max]

Baron Max: "What fear? Why are you afraid of gays, Tiassa? And even if you are, why should you project your own fears onto others?"
Why would I be afraid of gays, Max?

I don't know, Tiassa, but you're the one who is constantly bringing it up and trying to get everyone to believe in "fear" of homosexuals. So, ....why ARE you afraid of homosexuals?

But, ...you sure do type up a bunch of crap, don't you, Tiassa. All that long, involved post and you said almost nothing. You type words, Tiassa, lots of fuckin' words, but you can't seem to just say what you mean. Are you, somehow, someway, afraid to actually say what you mean? Or is it that you don't fuckin' know what you mean?

And again, I know of no one who's afraid of gays.

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

gotta give it to you max, at least your consistently pro segregation...

Well, it's a naturally occuring event all over the entire planet ...blacks live with blacks, Mexicans live with Mexicans, Chinese live with Chinese, ....... It happens in all of our major cities, all of the time. Every major city that I know has a "China Town", a "Little Mexico", a "Little Italy", a "Harlem", ......, and all of the other segragated populations. It's easy to see ...how can one not see it? And more to the point, I suppose, why can't people admit it?

Baron Max