The Gay Fray

[Asguard]

you know i really should have looked at the preferece of this book before writing that
She is an Australian author, whops

 

[Tiassa]

Florida!

Florida!
It's not marriage, but it's damn well important

Judge Cindy Lederman of the Miami-Dade Circuit Court overturned a Florida law prohibiting homosexuals from adopting children in Florida. Tuesday's ruling, she said, violated the equal protection rights of both the children and adoptive parents.

"There is no rational basis to prohibit gay parents from adopting," Judge Lederman wrote in her decision, which also rejected the state's claim that there is a "dark cloud hovering over homes of homosexuals and their children".

The Associated Press notes that Florida's thirty-one year-old law was the only outright statewide ban on gay adoption in the nation. Arkansas and Utah ban any unmarried couple from adopting or hosting foster children. Mississippi bans gay couples from adopting, but not single homosexuals.

Even before the ruling—which was the second against this statute—Florida gays could host foster children.

The ruling means that Martin Gill, 47, and his male partner can adopt two brothers, ages 4 and 8, whom he has cared for as foster children since December 2004 ....

.... He said the two boys have been practicing writing their new last names, and the older one said: "That's what's going to make us a family."

(Associated Press)

Mr. Gill, his partner, and the two children were represented by the ACLU, which noted that this case included unprecedented testimony from psychologists, social workers, and other experts who explained that there is no scientific basis justifying a ban on homosexuals adopting children.

The state presented experts who claimed there was a higher incidence of drug and alcohol abuse among gay couples, that they were more unstable than heterosexual unions and that the children of gay couples suffer a societal stigma.

Organizations such as the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Medical Association and American Psychiatric Association all support permitting same-sex couples to adopt.

Lederman rejected all the state's arguments soundly.

"It is clear that sexual orientation is not a predictor of a person's ability to parent," the judge wrote. "A child in need of love, safety and stability does not first consider the sexual orientation of his parent. The exclusion causes some children to be deprived of a permanent placement with a family that is best suited to their needs."

(ibid)

Heterosexual supremacy advocates were, predictably, upset. John Stemberger, who led Florida's ballot campaign to ban gay marriage this year, decried the ruling as judicial activism, and offered a bitter assessment of Judge Lederman's ruling: "Everywhere in the law where children are affected, the standard must always be what is in the best interest of the child," he said. "What is stunning to me is that when it comes to dealing with gays, that standard goes out the window."
____________________

Notes:

Associated Press. "Judge overturns gay adoption ban". Northwest Florida Daily News. November 25, 2008. http://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/gay_13045___article.html/children_state.html

 

[Baron Max]

Judge Cindy Lederman of the Miami-Dade Circuit Court overturned a Florida law prohibiting homosexuals from adopting children in Florida. Tuesday's ruling, she said, violated the equal protection rights of both the children and adoptive parents.

"There is no rational basis to prohibit gay parents from adopting," Judge Lederman wrote in her decision, which also rejected the state's claim that there is a "dark cloud hovering over homes of homosexuals and their children".

I can't help thinking that this might open the door to closet child molesters to attempt to adopt children? When there's nothing to suggest that the man is/might be adopting the child for his own "use". After all, if the man hasn't been arrested for child molesting, then there's no basis for to deny him his civil rights, right?

And, no, Tiassa, I'm not comparing gays to child molesters! It's the issue of civil rights .....and what MIGHT occur.

Baron Max

 

[Tiassa]

The obvious point

I can't help thinking that this might open the door to closet child molesters to attempt to adopt children? When there's nothing to suggest that the man is/might be adopting the child for his own "use". After all, if the man hasn't been arrested for child molesting, then there's no basis for to deny him his civil rights, right?

And, no, Tiassa, I'm not comparing gays to child molesters! It's the issue of civil rights .....and what MIGHT occur.

Well, I don't see that it will open the door to "closet" child molesters any more than heterosexual adoption does.

 

[Baron Max]

Well, I don't see that it will open the door to "closet" child molesters any more than heterosexual adoption does.

Well, I do. So my vote cancels out your vote!

Baron Max

 

[Tiassa]

And your vapidity cancels out ... what, logic? Decency?

Well, I do. So my vote cancels out your vote!

You really should try explaining your theses sometime; e.g., how will gay adoption open the door to "closet" child molesters any more than heterosexual adoption does?

 

[swarm]

Most child molesters are hetero.

Many are married.

 

[Tiassa]

Come out, come out ... of the closet

A note to religious organizations: Using the pulpit for religious clout will have some repercussions that you might not intend.

Just as an example:

The official name of the womb-gay idea—bestowed by Ray Blanchard, the man who articulated the phenomenon—is the fraternal birth order effect. Blanchard is Head of Clinical Sexology Services at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto and Professor of Psychiatry at the University of Toronto.

The upshot of the fraternal birth order effect is this: “In men, sexual orientation correlates with an individual’s number of older brothers, each additional older brother increasing the odds of homosexuality by approximately 33%.” And this isn’t because big brothers somehow socially pressure their little brothers into becoming gay. Another sex researcher, Anthony Bogaert of Brock University in Canada, has shown decisively that it isn’t due to family environment; adopted male siblings don’t show the fraternal birth order effect, and the effect holds even when biological male siblings are raised separately. It doesn’t happen in females, and female fetuses don’t add to the effect. The effect happens only among male siblings who have inhabited the same woman’s womb.

So if you are a man, the farther down the reproductive chain you were in terms of male fetuses inhabiting your biological mother’s womb, the greater the chance you are gay. Blanchard estimates this effect accounts for the sexual orientation of somewhere around 15-29% of gay men ....

.... So what does this have to do with Mormons? Well, given the relatively large size of Mormon families, on average, it is highly likely that gay men are relatively more common among Mormons than among the general population, where family size is, on average, smaller. It’s not just that each Mormon family would have, on average, more sons than the average American family; it’s that the population of Mormons would include more gay men per capita than the general American population. Hmmn ....

Put that fact together with a study that purported to show that men who are homophobic are more likely to be sexually aroused to homosexual stimuli ... and another purporting to show that homophobic men are more likely to be aggressive towards gay men ... and imagine, in turn, that gay (Mormon) men who are forced to be closeted are more likely to become homophobic....

Well, it’s just hard not to wonder if the Mormon declaration of war over Prop. 8 doesn’t have a little something to do with womb-gayness

(Dreger)

I have to admit, some people (including myself) have been wondering about this for a while. Well, now it's "on the table", as they say, and the LDS may well have its closet opened with a crowbar.
____________________

Notes:

Dreger, Alice. "Womb Gay". Hastings Center Bioethics Forum. December 12, 2008. http://www.thehastingscenter.org/Bioethicsforum/Post.aspx?id=2976

 

[Balerion]

HAHAHAA! Tiassa kicks ass!

 

[Tiassa]

Those astonishing homophobes ....

HAHAHAA! Tiassa kicks ass!

And it includes a bit of a twist on what I have previously referred to as "The 'homophobic' lie".

 

[Asguard]

seriously is there ANY scientific evidence of what this guy is proposing? oviously randomised controled trials are impossable for something like this but conclusive population data would be nice. To be honest it doesnt really track with the stable 10% theory, as birth rates go down if this was correct you would EXPECT to see homosexual numbers go down as a percentage of all live births

 

[Tiassa]

Something to start with

seriously is there ANY scientific evidence of what this guy is proposing? oviously randomised controled trials are impossable for something like this but conclusive population data would be nice.

If you read through the original posting, you'll find a number of links I didn't embed in the quote. Among them:

In men, sexual orientation correlates with an individual's number of older brothers, each additional older brother increasing the odds of homosexuality by approximately 33%. It has been hypothesized that this fraternal birth order effect reflects the progressive immunization of some mothers to Y-linked minor histocompatibility antigens (H-Y antigens) by each succeeding male fetus and the concomitantly increasing effects of such maternal immunization on the future sexual orientation of each succeeding male fetus. According to this hypothesis, anti-H-Y antibodies produced by the mother pass through the placental barrier to the fetus and affect aspects of sexual differentiation in the fetal brain. This explanation is consistent with a variety of evidence, including the apparent irrelevance of older sisters to the sexual orientation of later born males, the probable involvement of H-Y antigen in the development of sex-typical traits, and the detrimental effects of immunization of female mice to H-Y antigen on the reproductive performance of subsequent male offspring. The maternal immune hypothesis might also explain the recent finding that heterosexual males with older brothers weigh less at birth than heterosexual males with older sisters and homosexual males with older brothers weigh even less than heterosexual males with older brothers.

(Blanchard, "Fraternal Birth Order")

• • •​

The most consistent biodemographic correlate of sexual orientation in men is the number of older brothers (fraternal birth order). The mechanism underlying this effect remains unknown. In this article, I provide a direct test pitting prenatal against postnatal (e.g., social/rearing) mechanisms. Four samples of homosexual and heterosexual men (total n = 944), including one sample of men raised in nonbiological and blended families (e.g., raised with half- or step-siblings or as adoptees) were studied. Only biological older brothers, and not any other sibling characteristic, including nonbiological older brothers, predicted men’s sexual orientation, regardless of the amount of time reared with these siblings. These results strongly suggest a prenatal origin to the fraternal birth-order effect.

(Bogaert)

• • •​

Meta-analysis of aggregate data from 14 samples representing 10,143 male subjects shows that homosexuality in human males is predicted by higher numbers of older brothers, but not by higher numbers of older sisters, younger brothers, or younger sisters. The relation between number of older brothers and sexual orientation holds only for males. This phenomenon has therefore been called the fraternal birth order effect. Research on birth order, birth weight, and sexual orientation suggests that the developmental pathway to homosexuality initiated by older brothers operates during prenatal life. Calculations assuming a causal relation between older brothers and sexual orientation have estimated the proportion of homosexual men who owe their sexual orientation to fraternal birth order at 15% in one study and 29% in another. The maternal immune hypothesis proposes that the fraternal birth order effect reflects the progressive immunization of some mothers to male-specific antigens by each succeeding male fetus and the increasing effects of such immunization on sexual differentiation of the brain in each succeeding male fetus. There are at least three possible mechanisms by which the mother's immune response could influence the fetus: the transfer of anti-male antibodies across the placenta from the maternal into the fetal compartment, the transfer of maternal cytokines across the placenta, and maternal immune reactions affecting the placenta itself. This hypothesis is consistent with recent studies showing that the quantity of fetal cells that enter the maternal circulation is greater than previously thought, and that the number of male-specific proteins encoded by Y-chromosome genes is greater than previously thought.

(Blanchard, "Quantitative and theoretical analyses")

• • •​

The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992 ). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.

(Adams et al.)

It's not everything, but it's a start.

To be honest it doesnt really track with the stable 10% theory, as birth rates go down if this was correct you would EXPECT to see homosexual numbers go down as a percentage of all live births

Only if we presume that this is the only explanation for the origin of homosexuality.
____________________

Notes:

Blanchard, Ray. "Abstract: Fraternal Birth Order and the Maternal Immune Hypothesis of Male Homosexuality". Hormones and Behavior, v. 40, i. 2. September, 2001. ScienceDirect.com. Accessed December 4, 2008. http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...=1458830&md5=aa87ac96beb161ad9a2aa904a2a4e245

—————. "Abstract: Quantitative and theoretical analyses of the relation between older brothers and homosexuality in men". Journal of Theoretical Biology, v. 230, i. 2. September 21, 2004. ScienceDirect.com. Accessed December 4, 2008. http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...=1458830&md5=131b0b7f0d35f68aee3a387010a43f66

Bogaert, Anthony F. "Biological versus nonbiological older brothers and men’s sexual orientation". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, v. 103 (28). July 11, 2007. National Institutes of Health. Accessed December 4, 2008. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1502306

Adams, Henry E., et al. "Is Homophobia Associated With Homosexual Arousal?" Journal of Abnormal Psychology, v. 105, n. 3. 1996. Oogachaga.com. Accessed December 4, 2008. http://www.oogachaga.com/downloads/homophobia_and_homosexual_arousal.pdf

 

[Roman]

That is so fucking cool.
Mormons are more gay than the rest of us.
Heh heh heh.

 

[Tiassa]

American Terror?

Terrorists Threaten Seattle Gay Bars?
Bars, local newspaper receive letters threatening chemical attacks

Homophobia may be reaching extreme levels in Seattle, where several local gay bars have been threatened by anonymous letters claiming to target patrons for ricin poisoning.

Eleven gay bars in Seattle received letters today addressed to the "Owner/Manager" from someone claiming to be in the possession of ricin, a deadly poison. "Your establishment has been targeted," the letter begins. "I have in my possession approximately 67 grams of ricin with which I will indiscriminately target at least five of your clients."

"I felt sick when I read it," said Carla, the owner/manager of Re-bar. "It's so vile. It's just hatred. It made me worry for all the other bars, and for my bartenders, and our clientele."

According to the CDC's website, someone who has ingested "a significant amount" will develop vomiting and diarrhea within the first 6-12 hours; other symptoms of ricin poisoning include hallucinations, seizures, and blood in the urine. There is no antidote for ricin but ricin exposure is not invariably fatal.

"I just had the police come pick [the letter] up," said Keith Christensen, the manager of the Eagle, when reached by phone. Christensen had already heard about the letter from other bar owners and managers, and so he didn't open it. "It's probably nothing," Christensen added, "but the economy is really screwing all the bars right now, and the last thing we need is something ramping up the not-go-out mode people seem to be in right now. It's really freaky that someone would do something like this at a time like this."

Christensen says he's posted signs at the Eagle advising patrons not to leave their drinks unattended.

(Savage)

The manager at another pub admitted to being unsettled by the letter, but said he didn't think it was anything to worry about. "But after the initial 'what?'" he said, "it's like, whaatever."

Still, an anonymous letter was also sent to the offices of local alternative weekly newspaper The Stranger. According to the paper's editor, Dan Savage, they should "be prepared to announce the deaths of 55 individuals" who patronize any of several bars "on a Saturday in January". That letter concludes, "I could take this moment to launch into a diatribe about my indignation towards the gay community, however, I think the deaths will speak for themselves."

So let us take the reasonable approach, shall we? This probably isn't real, right? And, hey, it's not even terrorism, is it? After all, the letter was probably written by some embittered homosexual trying to discredit the anti-gay movement, right? Or maybe it's a horribly cynical conspiracy to increase patronage at the bars during a period of reduced custom. Indeed, Mr. Christensen, at the Eagle, mentioned the recent decline in business, and the letters have already had a positive effect as local promoters and DJs have suggested organizing a pub crawl in support of the threatened bars.

It's certainly more reasonable to presume one of these alternative theories than to take the letters at face value, right? Right? Especially when the community is praising itself in response to these threats. An employee at Re-bar noted, "Everyone is calling each other, everyone's got each other's backs".

Must be them dirty gays, eh? I mean, really, it's not like being gay is something Americans will actually kill someone for. Right?

Stay tuned. More information to come as either suspects or bodies start turning up.

A copy of the letter sent to Re-bar.​

____________________

Notes:

Savage, Dan. "Seattle Gay Bars Receive Threatening Letters". Slog. January 6, 2009. http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2009/01/06/gay_bars_receive_threatening

 

[swarm]

67 grams of ricin is a ludicrous amount. "The U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) gives a possible minimum figure of 500 micrograms (about the size of a grain of salt) for the lethal dose of ricin in humans if exposure is from injection or inhalation...Eight beans are considered toxic for an adult." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricin

67,000 doses. Let's assume 60% efficiency at extraction, that's about 900,000 castor beans.

Some one trying to do this would kill themselves long before they got close to 67 grams of toxin.

 

[Tiassa]

Approaching a threshold

Beneath the politics, a difficult question that many wrangle with:

However, is it accurate to describe Warren this way? Certainly, he does speak against the gay lifestyle, but would you say that anyone who does this is a hateful bigot? Is there a difference between the beliefs of Rick Warren and those of Fred Phelps?

(Savage, "Letter of the Day")​

For yesterday's Savage Love Letter of the Day, "A Biblical Christian" inquired about the sex columnist's recent response to an inquiry about peaceful and graceful demonstrations against President-elect Obama's selection of famous homophobe Rick Warren to bless the inauguration.

Dan's response is interesting in that it does attempt to establish a working definition of bigot or, in this case, "gay hatin'".

One can, easily enough, speak against aspects of the "gay lifestyle". Savage himself notes that "there are certainly aspects of 'the gay lifestyle' that trouble" him. But there's more to it than that. Some would insist that people shouldn't be gay. Some would denigrate loving relationships between homosexuals, or the families they raise. And many would pass laws about it.

Imagine if I told you that I only hated "the Christian lifestyle," and not, you know, actual Christians. Hey, nothing personal! I know and like tons of individual Christians, and I've broken bread with Christians, and I've had Christians over to my house. But I nevertheless think that Christianity—just the practice, not the people—is immoral and that no one needs to be Christian—it's a lifestyle choice, and Christians can change! Indeed, I was a Christian once. And while I have great affection for Christians I also believe that no one who is Christian is fit to parent, that Christians should not be allowed to marry or adopt, and that Christians aren't going to heaven because my God condemns their immoral lifestyle.

Oh, and I also believe that Christians being allowed to marry infringes upon my right to, um, live in a world where Christians do not enjoy that right.

Would you consider me an anti-Christian bigot then? I expect you would ... and you'd be right.

(Savage, "Letter of the Day")​

Some have wondered what the threshold is between personal sentiment and hate. I wouldn't say it's an absolute line, but it's a start.
___________________

Notes:

Savage, Dan. "Savage Love Letter of the Day". Slog. January 19, 2009. http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2009/01/19/savage_love_letter_of_the_day

—————. "Saddlebacked". The Stranger. January 15, 2009. http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=969486

 

[swarm]

Is there a difference between the beliefs of Rick Warren and those of Fred Phelps?

(Savage, "Letter of the Day")​

No, there is not.

Also choosing him in this way to obviously try and court the religious wrong was a poor decision on Obama's part.

 

[Tiassa]

Haggard: The Story That Just Won't Die

The Story That Just Won't Die
New allegations regarding Ted Haggard; gay advocacy group calls for investigation

Seriously, why won't this story just die?

Disgraced evangelical leader Ted Haggard's former church disclosed Friday that the gay sex scandal that caused his downfall extends to a young male church volunteer who reported having a sexual relationship with Haggard — a revelation that comes as Haggard tries to repair his public image.

Brady Boyd, who succeeded Haggard as senior pastor of the 10,000-member New Life Church in Colorado Springs, told The Associated Press that the man came forward to church officials in late 2006 shortly after a Denver male prostitute claimed to have had a three-year cash-for-sex relationship with Haggard.

Boyd said an "overwhelming pool of evidence" pointed to an "inappropriate, consensual sexual relationship" that "went on for a long period of time ... it wasn't a one-time act." Boyd said the man was in his early 20s at the time. He said he was certain the man was of legal age when it began.

(Gorski)​

Indeed, the evidence was so overwhelming that the church paid off the young volunteer:

Boyd said the church reached a legal settlement to pay the man for counseling and college tuition, with one condition being that none of the parties involved discuss the matter publicly ....

.... Anticipating criticism of the settlement with the former church volunteer, Boyd said Friday that it was in the best interests of all involved. He would not name the volunteer or the settlement amount.

"It wasn't at all a settlement to make him be quiet or not tell his story," Boyd said. "Our desire was to help him. Here was a young man who wanted to get on with his life. We considered it more compassionate assistance — certainly not hush money. I know what's what everyone will want to say because that's the most salacious thing to say, but that's not at all what it was."

(ibid)​

This sordid tale persists in part because of the absolute idiocy of certain people and events involved. Dan Savage, editor of The Stranger, noted:

So it wasn't about keeping him quiet... but the guy could only have the money if he agreed not to talk about what went down—or who—with anyone. And the earth is 5000 years old.

People who pay hush money very rarely consider it—or will admit to it—being hush money. But there was a moment there when the revelations about Haggard threatened the survival of his church, which threatened the livelihoods of other pastors and staffers, and the news that their pastor had been banging a member of the congregation right there in Zion—excuse me, Colorado Springs—and not just sneaking off to Sodom—excuse me, Denver—could've brought down New Life and forced Brady, et al, to seek honest employment. To avoid that fate, the leaders of New Life made the decision to pay Haggard's boyfriend an undisclosed amount of money provided he not speak publicly about his affair.​

And gay-advocacy group Truth Wins Out posted a press release calling for local authorities to investigate the payoff:

"Until conservative churches stop shaming gay people and learn to accept them, we will see more tawdry scandals," said Truth Wins Out’s Executive Director Wayne Besen. "These calamities are a direct result of the closet."

Rev. Boyd denied that New Life paid hush money and said, "Our desire was to help him. Here was a young man who wanted to get on with his life. We considered it more compassionate assistance – certainly not hush money."

TWO called on Colorado officials to look into the matter.

"Authorities should investigate to ensure that this volunteer was not manipulated or coerced into silence," said Besen. "The leadership of New Life has little credibility and should not simply be taken at their word. At a minimum, Boyd should resign for using his position of power to pressure a vulnerable member of his congregation into silence."​

I mean, okay. So a big-time preacher falls from grace after banging a prostitute while doing meth. Life goes on.

Of course, like any respectable man who made a mistake, Haggard then fell in with a fraudulent charity run by a convicted sex offender.

And then we learned that the church didn't pay hush money to another of Haggard's male lovers, but rather offered "compassionate assistance" on terms including that the young man never speak publicly of the affair.

Does it ever stop?

Really. Seriously. Will this story ever die? Or are there even more skeletons yet to tumble from the closets of what may well be Colorado's gayest church?
___________________

Notes:

Gorski, Eric. "Disgraced pastor faces more gay sex accusations". Yahoo! News. January 24, 2009. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090124/ap_on_re/rel_haggard_new_allegations

Savage, Dan. "Hush Money". Slog. January 24, 2009. http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2009/01/24/hush_money

—————. "Ted Haggard and the Man Behind 'Families With a Mission'". Slog. August 24, 2007. http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/08/families_with_a_mission

Truth Wins Out. "TWO Calls On Authorities To Investigate Ted Haggard’s Former Church". TruthWinsOut.org. January 24, 2009. http://www.truthwinsout.org/pressre...s-to-investigate-ted-haggard’s-former-church/

Black, Noel. "Ted Haggard's Crystal Cathedral". The Stranger. November 6, 2006. http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/ted-haggards-crystal-cathedral/Content?oid=100742

 

[swarm]

But Ted said he's completely heterosexual!

 

[Balerion]

But Ted said he's completely heterosexual!

We'll find out soon enough. I just saw that there's going to be a documentary airing on HBO called "The Trials of Ted Haggard". It's basically following him around since he got booted by his cult.