The French absurdity continues: INVISIBLE TURBANS for Sikhs !!!

ConsequentAtheist said:
Virtually all host countries are relatively recent contrivances. Culture is not an attribute of countries, but of peoples, and Greco's expectations reduce to little more than a demand for the coerced assimilation of the minority by the majority.
Well seen, culture != country. However, I don't know if "coerced assimilation of the minority by the majority" is the good way to express what the law would ask. In fact, it doesn't say : "Hey, you are a Muslim, a Sikhs, a Jew, a Catholic... leave your religion because here we are in France !!!". That just deals with community life rules (called culture or laws). When the majority does some rules, people should follow them (culture) or must follow them (laws). The law will replace a cultural rule that is 200 years old. I know that some of you think that it's old fashion and that it should change but that's our culture : no religion in the public schools, in the government or in the public services. It's different in the USA, in UK, in Iran... and we don't understand that but we let them live as they wish.

Just a note : in some culture, people eat dogs, dolphins... in restaurants. Does your country allow it? (Just an idea...)
 
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spidergoat said:
This has implications for all religions, not just the ones with funny hats.

The law in question seems to apply to all faiths. Agree or disagree, it doesn't appear to be discriminatory.

These complaints of anti-Muslim bigotry are just religion-baiting (or "race-baiting", for those who keep insisting that Islam is a race).
 
SG-N said:
That just deals with community life rules (called culture or laws).
No, community rules is not "called culture", nor is culture reducible to civil law.

SG-N said:
When the majority does some rules, people should follow them (culture) or must follow them (laws).
Tocqueville termed this the "tyranny of the majority", necesary but far too easily abused.

SG-N said:
Just a note : in some culture, people eat dogs, dolphins... in restaurants. Does your country allow it? (Just an idea...)
In what country do you find the eating of dogs and/or dolphins to be perceived as an important cultural practice? Such appears to be the case with regards to the hunting of whale by a small group of Native Americans, and accomodations have been made to enable that practice.

Despite Greco's backwardness, nations today are increasingly multicultural. How we handle that fact says a good deal about us as a people.
 
Acid Cowboy said:
The law in question seems to apply to all faiths. Agree or disagree, it doesn't appear to be discriminatory.
Sophomoric rubish. A law saying that noone is allowed to wear a Yamulkah may be 'applied to all faiths', but it clearly affects observant Jews alone.
 
ConsequentAtheist said:
No, community rules is not "called culture", nor is culture reducible to civil law.
It was not what I thought. I should have been more clear (sorry). I just think that there are two kinds of rules : the cultural ones and the legal ones. Some cultural rues are so important for some populations that if it's broken a law must replace this rule. Here is what will happen. That's a pitty because you can more easily play with a rule than with a law, and that's what we did until a few years/months. But now some school directors have problems and asked for something clear. That's what they will have.
If you want my true opinion about it : I would not have any problem with some exeptions in some situations (after having a chat with the student) but if a law must chose if the religious symbols are allowed in schools, I better like to forbid them from public shools. That's our culture : public school = free, open to everyone, with no distinction between the students AND with no religion. Each of these rules can be broken in private schools and that's why I went in one of them.
Tocqueville termed this the "tyranny of the majority", necesary but far too easily abused.
Nice to learn... However "tyranny" is a little bit strong! That could be another thread : Is the "tyranny of the majority" better than the "dictature of a minority". That would deal with so much things!
In what country do you find the eating of dogs and/or dolphins to be perceived as an important cultural practice? Such appears to be the case with regards to the hunting of whale by a small group of Native Americans, and accomodations have been made to enable that practice.
It's not always "important" but it can be! I saw a TV show about head hunters : a teen can't be a real man until he hunts his first head (a human one, of course). Isn't it as important as wearing some clothes? For use it's horrible, but for them it was natural and strongly spiritual. It is worth as we went there to kill or educate these "savages" in their "country". (... sorry, I have to go fast!)
Despite Greco's backwardness, nations today are increasingly multicultural. How we handle that fact says a good deal about us as a people.
That's right, but no one can say "I'm proud of me : I'm 0% racist, My home is 100% open to everyone and everyone can do whatever he wants in it...".


Note : that's really nice to talk with someone like you! Far better than "talking" with some "Proud ..." (that troll all day long).
 
Anyone should be allowed to wear what they wish, regardless of the religious or cultural or personal belief.

That is a good goal for any country to have, but, I think it is also ok for a country to make up it's own rules about what is or isn't allowed there, as long as one is free to leave that country if they disagree with the rules.
 
SG-N said:
That's right, but no one can say "I'm proud of me : I'm 0% racist, My home is 100% open to everyone and everyone can do whatever he wants in it...".
I suspect that neither of us has a clue as to what you're blathering about.
 
ConsequentAtheist said:
Sophomoric rubish. A law saying that noone is allowed to wear a Yamulkah may be 'applied to all faiths', but it clearly affects observant Jews alone.

Here is a quote from the article in the first post of this thread:

"The law would ban all "conspicuous" symbols of faith - including Muslim veils, Jewish skullcaps, large Christian crosses and even, if they are considered signs of religious affiliation, beards and bandanas - from all state institutions, starting in September."

As you can see, the law doesn't single out symbols of one specific faith and therefore is not discriminatory.

A bad, intrusive, pointless law? Yes.

A discriminatory one? No.
 
As you can see, the law doesn't single out symbols of one specific faith and therefore is not discriminatory.

The language of the law doesn't, but what is the practical effect?
 
James R said:
The language of the law doesn't, but what is the practical effect?

This the practical effect, more ISLAMOPHOBIA and more ANTI MUSLIM HATRED:

French Physician Refuses To Treat Hijab-Clad Women

PARIS, January 24 (IslamOnline.net) - The French government’s decision to consider passing a law to ban Islamic Hijab in public schools and institutions still has its repercussions on the French community, as there appears from time to time an individual or institutional anti-Hijab approach.

The hero of the latest of such practices has been a French Physician who decided to prevent patients wearing Hijab from visiting his clinic under the pretext that he wanted to put an end to what he sees as "the escalation of extremism in France and the whole world".

The French physician has put a sign in his Paris-based clinic’s waiting room, on which he expressed his reluctance to receive Muslim women wearing Hijab and asked them to take off their Hijab before going into his clinic.

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2004-01/24/article09.shtml

:mad:
 
So what are you going to do to remove ISLAMOPHOBIA.? What have you achieved by constantly displaying islamophobics.? Just imagine yourself standing on the roof of your house shouting "He has done that" .. "They are doing this"..

For a change can you post something commendable done to Muslims by non-muslims.? Atleast it would help removing misunderstandings between muslims & non-muslims. I know it is a difficult task, but you would be in right direction.
 
James R said:
The language of the law doesn't, but what is the practical effect?

There is certainly a potential for this law - and any law, really - to be enforced in a biased manner, but the law itself is religion-neutral.
 
Thats the point , they want them to leave.... Islamists do not assimilate
they aggregate and agitate the french are begining to feel the inward shism of their country going in a direction they attrociously hate and they will fight tooth and nail to change the direction...
While they do have control they will begin turning the skrew on islam. I commend them on doing it. "We are the borg you will be assimilated" :)
 
I agree with what everneo said, and will take it a few steps further...

If Muslims really want to change the attitudes that many have toward Islam, they need clean up their own back yard first. I find it hard to sympathize with Muslims when a law banning religious symbols including (but not exclusively) the hijab evokes more of a response than the genocide and enslavement of Sudanese animists and Christians by their Muslim neighbors, for example. In another thread I mentioned that the international Muslim community seems to only care about religious and cultural freedom when their own is at stake. This portrays them as being hyper-sensitive and hypocritical, which can't be good for their public image.

People keep telling me how peaceful and tolerant Islam really is. If this is true, then Muslims need to make a point to demonstrate this.
 
Greco said:
I'm totaly for all immigrants to go home to their mother country and enjoy the freedoms that their country offers and quit moving to places that they dont like. DUH
I couldn't agree more Greco - When in Rome do as the Romans - and if they don't like it - MOVE.

Proud_Muslim said:
Migrants should not assimiliate, they should INTEGRATE, why should I give up my cutlure and my religion ?? at the end of the day, THEY NEED US more than we need them.
Who is the "THEY" and "THEM" in your above statement. I need Muslims like a pain in the arse and believe me they ARE a pain in the arse, they complain, whinge and when they don't get their own way they scream racism. They cause racism in the UK, for without them there would be no racism in the UK.

Take the Chinese, Carribeans Africans etc, we all get along fine in the UK and they are a shining example of racial intergration, but there's always problems and grief when it comes to the Muslim people in the UK.

Proud (Withington) Muslim you are living in the UK not the MIDDLE EAST, if you are not happy with the UK, then do us all a favour and leave.
 
Vienna said:
I couldn't agree more Greco - When in Rome do as the Romans - and if they don't like it - MOVE.

Who is the "THEY" and "THEM" in your above statement. I need Muslims like a pain in the arse and believe me they ARE a pain in the arse, they complain, whinge and when they don't get their own way they scream racism. They cause racism in the UK, for without them there would be no racism in the UK.
----------
M*W: Well, Little Wienie, I see you're back after you promised to leave sciforums forever! Exactly what are the Muslims doing to be a pain in YOUR arse? With as many ethnic groups now living in the UK, why is it just the Muslims you hate? I think you are an Islamihomophobe, since you feel they are a pain in your arse.
It sounds like YOU are the one causing racism in the UK, not the Muslims!
----------
Take the Chinese, Carribeans Africans etc, we all get along fine in the UK and they are a shining example of racial intergration, but there's always problems and grief when it comes to the Muslim people in the UK.
----------
M*W: I live in a large metropolitan city myself. We have every nationality you can imagine in this city, and not one particular ethnic group or religious faction causes any problems! The Muslims over all the rest are the quietest, most respectful, citizens never causing any trouble. They are also very generous people. I had Muslim neighbors who were always feeding my dogs and baking things for us! The lady shared babysitting with my daughter. We were glad to have them as neighbors. I've worked with many Muslim physicians. They have more respect for their patients than any white doctor I've ever seen. They do tend to keep to themselves in their own areas of town, not that they are NOT welcome in other areas, they seem to want to live in the same areas as their food stores and ethnic businesses. There has never been one incident where the news reported a Muslim committing a crime! It just doesn't happen here. I think it's how you and your fellow little white wienies discriminate against them! You've already labeled them, so you expect them to act the way you labeled them. I've read articles that say the Nigerian (or other African ethnic groups) were causing big problems in the UK. The only problem we've had in our city is with the Nigerians. They have rings of crime lords, and they have so many scams going it's unreal. They have crop shops for cars, insurance scams, acid washing mail, identity theft. You name it, the Nigerians do it! So you can't tell me that the Muslims are the one group causing all the problems. They are quiet, peaceful people who have respect for low-life's like yourself.
----------
Proud (Withington) Muslim you are living in the UK not the MIDDLE EAST, if you are not happy with the UK, then do us all a favour and leave.
----------
M*W: Proud Muslim, I welcome you and your family to come to Texas to live. You will be welcomed here, and we would be proud to have you. Our city council is multi-ethnic and reaches out to every group. The Muslims in our town live in the higher class neighborhoods, and there are many amenities for Muslim families. I don't see how anyone could live in the UK where they breed losers like Vienna. Interestingly, he's so proud of his country his username is a city in Austria! Go figure! The UK is not known for its cuisine, ambience, friendship or romance. How boring!!!!
 
M*W - along with Proud Syrian please take that monsterous Hamza as well, thanks. You should all be happy with each other. :D

A couple of examples which piss the native English off....

If a Mosque in England is vandalised (Graffiti, etc) the Government gives them a grant to clean and repair usually around £3,000, if a Church is vandalised the Government gives them nothing. So who's guilty of discrimination here??? And it doesn't go down too well with the Christians.
As for PS having clouded tendancies, well this is an understatement. The man is a troll. He and his ilk of Muslims believe they are taking over this country, only they couldn't be more wrong. The guilty party in racial stirrings is the Government with its biased affection for the ethnic minorities, so much so that it infuriates the natives. Not too long from now we will see a Government who will recognise that this land belongs to the natives and no preference will be handed on a plate to aliens - the sooner the better.

Where I live there are quite a few Paki owned computer shops and their main customers are (yep you guessed) Pakistanis, and the biggest and most popular request is for custom built computers using NO American parts whatsoever. So which phobia is this then - Americanophobia????

The Muslims in England are the equivalent of your Nigerians.
 
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England is as diverse a community as you can find anywhere. Mainly, the populous is spread in cultural boundaries, (especially in London)

Brixton: British Blacks
Kilburn: Irish
Golders Green: Jewish
Finchley Central: Pakistani

As such there will always be grievances here, because not enough time is spent with different cultures. The ethnics here however, cause real strife. I have no personal intent by saying so, it's just the way it is.

Up the road, they have "taken over", (squatting), an office block. From the top floor they have hung a huge banner out the window stating how much they hate England. During the daylight hours, they stand on our streets begging, aswell as getting all the government money they'll ever need. Without sounding too harsh, they infect the tranquility this place once had. So in one hand they show how much they hate this place, and the other hand is held out for free money. I'm sorry but some resentment towards this, is purely justified.

The other day I was browsing through the classifieds in the paper. I saw this:

Jobs fair for ethnic minorities

No problems there right? Now, could you imagine if that said 'Jobs fair for white people'? Oh boy, would people be screaming racism.

Reverse racism is ever present here, and even the government and council give in to it. Barnet council's policy on housing was:

"We give more points to ethnic's because they're in greater need of housing."

Basically: People on the housing list are alloted points based on their need for housing. If you have kids you get extra points, if you're disabled etc you get more points and so on. Anyone who just so happens to be ethnic gets an extra 100 points by default simply because of the colour of their skin. I spoke to the head of Barnet council, who told me it wasn't discrimination, and then refused to talk to me any further.

How can anyone expect there not to be a level of hatred, when things are the way they are here?

As for the actual topic concerning these soon-to-be religious based laws: I actually agree. Keep religion in church, etc..

The local jewish community tried to get massive poles put up in certain areas to allow them to do things on a Saturday- within the boundary of the poles, (yes, basically going against their own religious beliefs to enable them to shop, drive and so on).

In your own home or in your place of worship = fine, but there has to be a limit.

Sure, call it racist, bias or whatever you want. It's just my opinion.
 
SnakeLord said:
England is as diverse a community as you can find anywhere. Mainly, the populous is spread in cultural boundaries, (especially in London)

Brixton: British Blacks
Kilburn: Irish
Golders Green: Jewish
Finchley Central: Pakistani

As such there will always be grievances here, because not enough time is spent with different cultures. The ethnics here however, cause real strife. I have no personal intent by saying so, it's just the way it is.

Up the road, they have "taken over", (squatting), an office block. From the top floor they have hung a huge banner out the window stating how much they hate England. During the daylight hours, they stand on our streets begging, aswell as getting all the government money they'll ever need. Without sounding too harsh, they infect the tranquility this place once had. So in one hand they show how much they hate this place, and the other hand is held out for free money. I'm sorry but some resentment towards this, is purely justified.

The other day I was browsing through the classifieds in the paper. I saw this:

Jobs fair for ethnic minorities

No problems there right? Now, could you imagine if that said 'Jobs fair for white people'? Oh boy, would people be screaming racism.

Reverse racism is ever present here, and even the government and council give in to it. Barnet council's policy on housing was:

"We give more points to ethnic's because they're in greater need of housing."

Basically: People on the housing list are alloted points based on their need for housing. If you have kids you get extra points, if you're disabled etc you get more points and so on. Anyone who just so happens to be ethnic gets an extra 100 points by default simply because of the colour of their skin. I spoke to the head of Barnet council, who told me it wasn't discrimination, and then refused to talk to me any further.

How can anyone expect there not to be a level of hatred, when things are the way they are here?

As for the actual topic concerning these soon-to-be religious based laws: I actually agree. Keep religion in church, etc..

The local jewish community tried to get massive poles put up in certain areas to allow them to do things on a Saturday- within the boundary of the poles, (yes, basically going against their own religious beliefs to enable them to shop, drive and so on).

In your own home or in your place of worship = fine, but there has to be a limit.

Sure, call it racist, bias or whatever you want. It's just my opinion.
----------
M*W: Thank you for making your point more clear. I didn't realize it was THAT bad in London. We would never get away with that kind of stuff here. If they hate the UK so badly, then they need to go where they feel more comfortable.

I can only understand what is going on there by rereading history. My ancestors were from Germany. In the late 1600s there was a major freeze when all the wine froze and they had nothing to eat or drink. So many of them from the Palatinate were taking any boat they could to England. Just happened that when the boat my ancestors were on got to England, they were ordered to turn around and go back. The English didn't want any more Germans overrunning their country, so the boat was made to detour to Ireland. My German ancestors finally made it to north of Dublin, County Louth, and settled there marrying into Irish families. Then when my great-great grandfather came to America, he was discriminated against because he was Irish. The Irish were treated so harshly when they immigrated to the USA. That was before my time, but I remember my elders telling stories about it. Americans were snobs during the great immigration. They thought the Irish were the scum of the earth. The Irish worked hard and survived. For the most part, they all spoke English. Then came the Italians whom American's thought were scummier than the Irish. This country was based on the snooty English ethos, and everyone who came from somewhere else was simply trash. Then came the Magyars, the Turks, the Russians, all looking for some kind of manual labor to feed their families. They were just glad to be here in this country, and they all LEARNED English! Then came the influx of our neighbors to the South. They took over jobs the White Man didn't want to do: yard work, manual labor, carpet laying, construction. Not one of them took a job an American wanted. The American welfare system catered to the American Blacks who didn't want to work anyway. Then came the Vietnamese, Chinese, Koreans who are the most industrious, hard-working people I've ever seen. Their children are also the brightest and they all LEARNED English! Immigrants to the USA have contributed so much to our culture and have truly enriched it. We are still the great melting pot. Now if we could just get our American Blacks off welfare and back to work, we'd be doing okay. Of course, they holler the racist card every chance they get. The Afrikan immigrants have a better work ethic than the American Blacks. The two cultures don't integrate even though they're the same color. Cultures are constantly in the process of integrating with each other. One particular integration I can think of is Fusion Cuisine. It's a combination of Mexican and Oriental cuisine. I do hope the people of the UK are able to cope with the integrating cultures. It sounds to me that the governments of the UK are too liberal for their own good. Is the entire common market like that? I lived in Germany for a number of years, and they, too, were too liberal for me. I think the only thing that really helps in this situation is, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
 
SnakeLord said:
Sure, call it racist, bias or whatever you want. It's just my opinion.
And it is my opinion also - and I don't mind being called racist at all. I know that the identity of England is under threat and the people have been sold out by its leaders.

Here are a couple more items I have found in the newspapers recently.

THE PAUPER AND THE PRINCE

A fifty-six year old Briton who had never claimed a week’s dole in forty years of working life lost his job. He wept how he described how he was means tested, visited and interrogated by an official, lived on handouts for three weeks before receiving just £50.35. He received this miserly sum only after he bitterly complained.

Just as typically ‘refugees’ receive £255 a month income support. This is topped up by £356 housing benefit and most can add another £42 in council benefit. (Source: Daily Mail) Added to these princely sums are free furnished homes and clothes with free access to a multitude of services to which they have never contributed a penny. Even those who are undoubtedly proud and wish to contribute to their upkeep through work are denied the right to do so.

OLD FOLK ‘WEEPING AND DISTRESSED’

In Merseyside twenty-five elderly pensioners were evicted from their residential home, old friends were separated forever. Their little apartments are now filled by 42 asylum seekers, mostly Albanian. Retired gynaecologist, Harold Francis who lives two doors away said: ‘The old people were weeping and very distressed’. This appalling ethnic cleansing is being repeated in every city, town and village across Britain.
 
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