The French absurdity continues: INVISIBLE TURBANS for Sikhs !!!

[Proud_Muslim]

French Sikhs threaten to leave country

French Sikhs threaten to leave country

Jon Henley in Paris
Friday January 23, 2004
The Guardian

Last month, France barely knew its Sikh community existed. Next month, it may not exist: Sikhs have said they may leave if they are forced, under a planned ban on religious symbols in state institutions, to remove their turbans.
"We cannot take them off," said Jasdev Singh Rai, a negotiator sent by the Golden Temple in Amritsar, the Sikhs' holiest shrine, to do battle with Paris officials. Many Sikhs may rather go than "live among intolerant people", he said.

A 5,000-strong Sikh community has been living in the northern Paris suburbs, near the Gurdwara Sahib temple in Bobigny, for many decades.

Chain Singh, a leader of the temple, said the community had been "completely overlooked" during the drafting of the ban, which is intended to stem the rising impact of radical Islam on France's secular republic.

The law would ban all "conspicuous" symbols of faith - including Muslim veils, Jewish skullcaps, large Christian crosses and even, if they are considered signs of religious affiliation, beards and bandanas - from all state institutions, starting in September.

Mr Singh said that Sikhs in many countries were allowed to wear turbans in armies and police forces. In the UK and Germany, they could ride motorbikes without helmets.

French Sikhs argue the ban should not apply to turbans. They say they are a practical covering for the hair, which their religion bars them from cutting. The turban, they say, is therefore just a cultural symbol, rather than a religious one. In turn, the most ardent supporters of the ban say that if the turban is merely cultural, then Sikhs are not obliged to wear it.

The Sikh community in France - many of whom have no ID cards because identity photographs must be taken bare-headed - has organised a petition and a protest march in Paris on January 31.

Mr Rai said he had held "encouraging" talks with officials in the foreign, interior and education ministries.

"They realise they are in very muddy waters," he said. "We are being pigeonholed into categories we don't fit in."

Officials, however, say the government is "very nervous" about making exceptions. The education minister, Luc Ferry, has even suggested that Sikhs may wear "invisible" turbans,

or hair nets. A Sikh community spokesman responded that France, the home of haute couture, must be able to find a solution acceptable to all.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1129288,00.html

HOW SAD, IN THE 21TH CENTURY, WE SEE EUROPE HAS PLUNGED AGAIN INTO THE INTOLERANT MIDDLE AGES !!!

 

[Greco]

I'm totaly for all immigrants to go home to their mother country and enjoy the freedoms that their country offers and quit moving to places that they dont like. DUH

 

[spidergoat]

It's pretty outragous that the French should be so intolerant of religious symbols. This has implications for all religions, not just the ones with funny hats. What's next? Banning ethnic clothing, facial hair? I feel sorry for anyone that has to live in France, this is political correctness taken too far.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

I'm totaly for all immigrants to go home to their mother country and enjoy the freedoms that their country offers and quit moving to places that they dont like. DUH

And since you are GREEK yourself, we should start with you, how about DHL ?

 

[Greco]

And since you are GREEK yourself, we should start with you, how about DHL ?

I'm starting to think you're an idiot. Do you hear me complaining about the US? I Served honorably in the Marine Corps for 4 years and I love this country although I see a lot of troubles ahead with groups of people that want to destroy what this country stands for.

I dont like organized religions especially religions that spread their faith with the power of the sword. Get my drift PMS?

 

[Proud_Muslim]

I'm starting to think you're an idiot.

I already established that you are one.

Do you hear me complaining about the US?

When the US starts persecuting you for your religious belief, you will complain like wet cat..dont worry.

I Served honorably in the Marine Corps for 4 years and I love this country although I see a lot of troubles ahead with groups of people that want to destroy what this country stands for.

What your adopted country stands for ?? I will help you:

it stands for BLOOD SUCKING and THEIFT of poor nations wealth:

www.motherofevil.com

I dont like organized religions especially religions that spread their faith with the power of the sword. Get my drift PMS?

And since you are implying islam in your above nonesense, can you tell me how Islam spread in Indonesia ??????????????????????????

 

[guthrie]

It's pretty outragous that the French should be so intolerant of religious symbols. This has implications for all religions, not just the ones with funny hats. What's next? Banning ethnic clothing, facial hair? I feel sorry for anyone that has to live in France, this is political correctness taken too far.

PC? Naw, it smore like the original french attempts at a republic, over 200 years ago. Sure, they enthroned reason in the churches, but reason didnt rule for long, but I think all that stuff i still reverberating down the Centuries. The impression i get form this side of the Chunnel is that the french are refreshingly un PC in everything they do.

 

[sargentlard]

The education minister, Luc Ferry, has even suggested that Sikhs may wear "invisible" turbans

He might as well tell them to cut their hair and go for the fancy bald look because it would makes just about as much sense as his suggestion of wearing invisible turbans.

I suggest he wears invisible pants and invisible underwear.

 

[Bells]

And yet again we see the French Government make an arse of itself in statements such as the 'invisible hairnets'. They are so obsessed with pursuing their secular beliefs that they are disregarding the wishes of their populace. There appears to be a racist wave sweeping through Europe, and this is becoming more and more apparent with the rising popularity of right wing political parties throughout Europe. Is Chirac trying to appease some of the right wing members who reside in France and attempting to steal back some of the support which is going towards the right wing parties? Who knows. But with actions such as listed above, it could very well be so.

Greco:

I'm totaly for all immigrants to go home to their mother country and enjoy the freedoms that their country offers and quit moving to places that they dont like. DUH

What if some of these people were actually born in France? Where would they go? Should they reject their religious beliefs because they were born in France? Maybe these people who dislike France should try looking back in their own family history and try to find if one of their ancestors immigrated to France and then moving to that ancestor's country of origin? Or should they consider leaving their mother country and finding a more tolerant society? Don't forget Greco, we are all migrants or descendants of migrants in our own way. Would you propose that all the white Americans, who dislike Bush and what he's doing to the US, leave and return to their country of their origin or the country which their ancestors immigrated from?

I'm starting to think you're an idiot. Do you hear me complaining about the US? I Served honorably in the Marine Corps for 4 years and I love this country although I see a lot of troubles ahead with groups of people that want to destroy what this country stands for.

And many Muslims and Sikhs also served in the French defence forces and many died in doing so. They too love their country. It's a shame that their country does not love them back with the same devotion.

Greco, I need to ask, what does your country stand for today? In reality, what does the US stand for? Freedom? Right to freedom? Freedom of speech? Democracy? The Rule of Law? The right to legal representation? The right to your day in court? Limits on power of the State? Equal Justice? Religious tolerance? Now unless you've been in denial the last couple of years, such things no longer exist in the US. Surely you are aware that there are many people who are held in detention centres without any of the rights that the US tells its citizens it has. Surely you are aware that to now speak out against the Government in the US could have you being visited by a Federal Agent questioning your motives. Surely you are aware that your Patriot Act has destroyed any semblance of 'freedom of speech or expression' which your country may have had. Your Government has disregarded all of the ideologies upon which your country was founded, so please enlighten me? What does the US stand for?

I dont like organized religions especially religions that spread their faith with the power of the sword. Get my drift PMS?

So you hate all religions then? All organised religions are guilty of this Greco. Hell the US and its allies are attempting to spread the religion of US faith and ideals with the power of the sword, do you hate the US as well?

The people in France should have a right to wear what they wish. By wearing a turban, hijab, skull cap, crucifix, they aren't trying to draw people into their beliefs. They are merely expressing their beliefs to and within themselves. It is not a sign of hate to wear it. It is a sign of hate to prevent them from wearing it.

 

[okinrus]

It is possible that they are attempting to rid themselves of their muslim population. The restrictions on Christians almost seem comical to what they are expecting muslims to do. Still, it seems this would also restrict the dress of the religous orders. I don't see how this will play to rightwingers. Although I have not studied French politics, this would be quite an outrage to the conservatives of the US.

 

[Repo Man]

The law of unintended consequences strikes again.

This really is a shame. From my experience with Sikhs, they are a model for how to live in another culture while retaining your own beliefs. There are many sikhs in the US, and a large number in my part of Northern California. It is still a little odd to get used to seeing a tractor being driven down the road by a Sikh farmer wearing a turban.

You can be sure that this legislation wasn't aimed at Sikhs. I sympathize with the intent of the French legislators, but I'm not at all convinced that they will achieve their goal with these laws.

 

[Greco]

Bells: There appears to be a racist wave sweeping through Europe, and this is becoming more and more apparent with the rising popularity of right wing political parties throughout Europe

Greco: It’s cultural backlash. As more immigrants migrate the more cultural turmoil they will cause. Mass migrations will cause massive agitation in the host nation.

Bells: What if some of these people were actually born in France?

Greco: I expect those people to have assimilated to the culture of the host country. Failing that, they should have separation of church and state in government. Public schools should not allow students to wear any religious symbols or tee shirts with religious slogans to avoid religious confrontation. It’s all for the best. For Muslims that insist in following their traditional dress they should go to private schools.

Bells: Don't forget Greco, we are all migrants or descendants of migrants in our own way. Would you propose that all the white Americans, who dislike Bush and what he's doing to the US, leave and return to their country of their origin or the country which their ancestors immigrated from?

Greco: Yes I am too a migrant to US and if I dint like it here then I would go back to my country instead of complaining and trying to change the system. I can’t stand immigrants that come here and bad-mouth the US, it makes absolutely no sense. Now we do have a judicial system and a law making body that makes laws for us. If a citizen has a legitimate complain he can take something to the Supreme Court and maybe change the law. But once the law has spoken the citizen should either shut up or go some where else.

Bells: And many Muslims and Sikhs also served in the French defence forces and many died in doing so. They too love their country. It's a shame that their country does not love them back with the same devotion

Greco: I hear that and I admire their duty. However serving one’s country doesn’t give that person a license to do what he likes. He still has to conform to the will of the many.

Bells: Greco, I need to ask, what does your country stand for today? In reality, what does the US stand for? Freedom? Right to freedom? Freedom of speech? Democracy? The Rule of Law? The right to legal representation? The right to your day in court? Limits on power of the State? Equal Justice? Religious tolerance? Now unless you've been in denial the last couple of years, such things no longer exist in the US. Surely you are aware that there are many people who are held in detention centres without any of the rights that the US tells its citizens it has. Surely you are aware that to now speak out against the Government in the US could have you being visited by a Federal Agent questioning your motives. Surely you are aware that your Patriot Act has destroyed any semblance of 'freedom of speech or expression' which your country may have had. Your Government has disregarded all of the ideologies upon which your country was founded, so please enlighten me? What does the US stand for



Greco: The is the best country in the world that’s why people are dying to get here. It provides un-limited opportunities for any one wishing to get ahead. What are turning this country to an Orwellian 1984 are terrorist groups like al quida. Osama is jealous of what we have and is trying to destroy it. He will not succeed as long as there people that are willing to fight such scum.

Bells: So you hate all religions then? All organized religions are guilty of this Greco. Hell the US and its allies are attempting to spread the religion of US faith and ideals with the power of the sword, do you hate the US as well

Greco: I’m an agnostic and I think religion is mass delusion and I would hate anyone to spread their religious garbage by the power of their sword. I haven’t heard of anyone lately trying to spread their faith with the power of their sword I think the last ones were the Turks.

Bells: The people in France should have a right to wear what they wish. By wearing a turban, hijab, skull cap, crucifix, they aren't trying to draw people into their beliefs. They are merely expressing their beliefs to and within themselves. It is not a sign of hate to wear it. It is a sign of hate to prevent them from wearing it.


Greco: It’s a situation that can easily get out of control. Can you imagine what school would be like if the KKK wore their hoods, Jews their scull cap, the sheiks with their ceremonial knifes, the Muslim women with their head covering, tee shirts with all kinds of religious sayings, voodoo medicine men. You’re asking for trouble big time. And what if a Muslim woman refused to wear a head covering, will she be looked down upon by her kind?

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Can you imagine what school would be like if the KKK wore their hoods, Jews their scull cap, ...

Anyone who equates the KKK and their cowardly masks with the religious garb of the Muslims, Jews, and Sikhs is an idiot and a disgrace.

 

[Bells]

Greco:

It’s a situation that can easily get out of control. Can you imagine what school would be like if the KKK wore their hoods, Jews their scull cap, the sheiks with their ceremonial knifes, the Muslim women with their head covering, tee shirts with all kinds of religious sayings, voodoo medicine men. You’re asking for trouble big time. And what if a Muslim woman refused to wear a head covering, will she be looked down upon by her kind?

Anyone should be allowed to wear what they wish, regardless of the religious or cultural or personal belief. It's beside the point.

And as for the muslim woman wearing the hijab, it's the personal choice of the woman to wear it. Many muslim women choose not to wear it and they aren't rejected or abused by their muslim community for it. But the main issue here is that the State should not be dictating a person's dress based on that person's religious belief.

 

[Greco]

Anyone who equates the KKK and their cowardly masks with the religious garb of the Muslims, Jews, and Sikhs is an idiot and a disgrace.

Bells: Anyone should be allowed to wear what they wish, regardless of the religious or cultural or personal belief. It's beside the point.

I guess you're an idiot Bells.

 

[everneo]

You can be sure that this legislation wasn't aimed at Sikhs. I sympathize with the intent of the French legislators, but I'm not at all convinced that they will achieve their goal with these laws.

Apparently they mixed up secularism with curtailing religious/cultural/traditional freedom.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Anyone who equates the KKK and their cowardly masks with the religious garb of the Muslims, Jews, and Sikhs is an idiot and a disgrace.

Well said consequent, I raise my hat to you.

 

[SG-N]

Greco: I expect those people to have assimilated to the culture of the host country. Failing that, they should have separation of church and state in government. Public schools should not allow students to wear any religious symbols or tee shirts with religious slogans to avoid religious confrontation. It’s all for the best. For Muslims that insist in following their traditional dress they should go to private schools.

That's the way we see it. I can't express it better !

But, about the Sikhs... well it's a little bit hard, as it it's not a religious symbol. Here is a problem that they -in the government- will have to solve before voting their "religious" law. Anyway, the "invisible turbans" is just a joke (I hope... :bugeye: ) !

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

I expect those people to have assimilated to the culture of the host country

That's the way we see it. I can't express it better !

Virtually all host countries are relatively recent contrivances. Culture is not an attribute of countries, but of peoples, and Greco's expectations reduce to little more than a demand for the coerced assimilation of the minority by the majority.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Migrants should not assimiliate, they should INTEGRATE, why should I give up my cutlure and my religion ?? at the end of the day, THEY NEED US more than we need them.